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I don't think anything nails the Emperor's terrible decision making like what he did to Angron. Probably any other person, or space marine, or Primarch could have told him pulling Angron out of a last stand with fellow slaves he has fought and bled for would be a terrible idea and Angron would never forgive him for it. But no, teleports him out and then lets him watch while the rest of the slaves collapse and are massacred. All because "YOU ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO MY GREAT PLAN".
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Sep 21, 2013 20:50
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Nephilm posted:Russ wasn't a furry. Space Wolves develop wolf-like traits from their geneseed's reaction to the Canis Helix, but Russ was as free of mutation as a primarch can be. I though Russ had the 'wolf like' appearance, the teeth, jaw, etc. Or is that something he puts on to maintain his image? I seem to recall Magnus commenting on Russ wearing a savage's face
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Sep 21, 2013 21:05
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Khizan posted:Angron's sons get pumped the gently caress up by his loyalty and dedication and the bonds of brotherhood he has with his slave army and it's love at first goddamned sight, because that is basically the most important thing in the world for the War Hounds. And so what's the Emperor do? Does he unleash the War Hounds to save their gene-father's army? Does he fight alongside the son that he failed? Does he stand by in orbit and watch his damaged, terrible, noble son die valiantly in battle against his oppressors? No, the War Hounds didn't make first contact with Angron until the Emperor brought him to orbit, and they were horrified that their Primarch was an insane monster with little of the majesty of all the others they had witnessed. And they could never connect with him, even though they so desperately tried - adopted his customs, adopted his style of warfare, let themselves be violated by the Butcher's Nails, and even with all that they never felt like their father's sons. And Angron never recognized them as his, for his true family would always be those bones half-buried by mountain wind. That said, while Angron's story is certainly tragic, I'd like to see the position and reasoning of the Emperor. Considering he knew the nails would kill him within a couple centuries, it's possible that upon seeing him for the first time, a broken beast of a primarch surrounded by vicious savages he calls brethen, a failure that'd die meaninglessly, he decided to tear him away from that no matter how much he'd hate him and set him to work upon a grander purpose. Contributing to the Great Crusade would be the legacy of Angron the Red Angel, not a failed rebellion in a world nobody had heard of, and extinguishing before the coming of the age of prosperity this would accomplish (in which he had no place) would be death he had sought.
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Sep 21, 2013 21:10
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pentyne posted:I don't think anything nails the Emperor's terrible decision making like what he did to Angron. Probably any other person, or space marine, or Primarch could have told him pulling Angron out of a last stand with fellow slaves he has fought and bled for would be a terrible idea and Angron would never forgive him for it. I still don't understand the emperor didn't just teleport down with a bunch of his custodes. Hell even just popping his head down there, would probably have completely stopped the attack. Nephilm posted:Considering he knew the nails would kill him within a couple centuries, Did they change the fluff? I thought the emperor offered to remove the nails, but Anargon refused? UberJumper fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 21:11
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Dog_Meat posted:I though Russ had the 'wolf like' appearance, the teeth, jaw, etc. Russ had clear and intelligent eyes, and everyone is in awe of how regal he looks, the presence he carries. But when angry he was a terrifying visage, a terrible barbarian king. UberJumper posted:I still don't understand the emperor didn't just teleport down with a bunch of his custodes. Hell even just popping his head down there, would probably have completely stopped the attack. Would Angron have agreed to that? Help of unknown allies all too similar to the enemies he fought? And would that have accomplished anything? There's nothing to say that he'd have agreed to go on the Great Crusade when all his concerns were with his small barbarian army. Incapable of thinking big, incapable of accomplish anything with their little rebellion, all made butchers by the Nails singing between their ears. UberJumper posted:Did they change the fluff? I thought the emperor offered to remove the nails, but Anargon refused? If the Nails could be removed it'd have been done by force. They were vicious and advanced archeotec that had twisted and rewired his mind throughout the years he spent on Nuceria. Under the Sigillite's supervision they were examined, the reports sent to the Emperor directly, and the decision made to leave them in place. Nephilm fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 21:17
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The funny part is that without the nails Angron probably would have tried to kill the Emperor and would have never served him, even begrudgingly. Like someone else mentioned, Angron's defining trait wasn't his RAGE but rather his sense of brotherhood, honor, and pursuit of liberty. He thought that the Imperium was an absolutely terrible thing, and if he was able to sit down and think long enough without getting bursts of rage and pain then he likely would have rebelled on his own long before Horus came along.
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Sep 21, 2013 21:25
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Without the Nails he could've been able to sit down and have philosophical discussions about the need for the Imperium with Horus, Magnus, Guilliman and Dorn. He could've been able to develop kinship with his brothers, which is something he always desired, and is how Lorgar got to him in the end.
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Sep 21, 2013 21:30
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Russ loves to pretend to be a savage, and he in general seems to enjoy messing around with peoples' expectations. He's also, as characterized by Abnett, arguably one of the most perceptive and self-aware of the primarchs, and one of their more lateral thinkers, too. His problem is that he enjoys tweaking authority a little to much to ever be more than what he is or work well within a larger organization or power structure. And he's completely okay with that and seems to have limited ambitions beyond kicking rear end, being his own man, and occasionally dropping in to teach people lessons about the flaws that he sees as an intentionally "uncivilized" outsider or otherwise saying the things that no-one else is going to say (in his own oblique way).
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Sep 21, 2013 21:33
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Nephilm posted:Would Angron have agreed to that? Help of unknown allies all too similar to the enemies he fought? And would that have accomplished anything? There's nothing to say that he'd have agreed to go on the Great Crusade when all his concerns were with his small barbarian army. Incapable of thinking big, incapable of accomplish anything with their little rebellion, all made butchers by the Nails singing between their ears. He is the emperor of mankind, a being who's mere presence makes mortals weep with joy at his greatness. I understand the butchers nails more or less removed any aspect of his loyalty but Angron was warrior who still adhered to a warriors code. The emperor of mankind is pretty much the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he has woven history. I am sure in his infinite wisdom, he could have found a dozen of different ways to go about it. But for whatever reason he did it in the shittiest way possible. Which i don't get. Nephilm posted:
I should really read the Butchers Nails. For the longest time i was under the assumption Anrgon refused to have them removed. UberJumper fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 21:34
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Nephilm posted:No, the War Hounds didn't make first contact with Angron until the Emperor brought him to orbit, and they were horrified that their Primarch was an insane monster with little of the majesty of all the others they had witnessed. And they could never connect with him, even though they so desperately tried - adopted his customs, adopted his style of warfare, let themselves be violated by the Butcher's Nails, and even with all that they never felt like their father's sons. They did feel like that, later. But at that moment when they learned that their gene-sire had refused the Emperor and the Imperium to go back and die with his brothers? They loved that. In Betrayer, it's said that "they didn't hate Angron for his choice. They worshipped him for it. What primarch better understood the bonds of brotherhood than one who turned his back on the Emperor, on the Imperium, on life itself - to die side by side with his kindred?" And while Nails would have hosed Angron up eventually, I think that the Angron whose brothers-in-arms were saved by the War Hounds and the Emperor and who had a chance to join the Crusade on his own terms would have been a much different man than the Angron who was snatched away from his glorious death while his brothers died alone while believing that he had abandoned them.
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Sep 21, 2013 21:36
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UberJumper posted:He is the emperor of mankind, a being who's mere presence makes mortals weep with joy at his greatness. I understand the butchers nails more or less removed any aspect of his loyalty but Angron was warrior who still adhered to a warriors code. Well, all we have is Angron's word on what happened, and he's not exactly the most sane person, so it's possible that things actually went down differently from what he thinks happened. For all we know, he was only teleported away at the end after the last slave died but his grief and guilt-ridden psyche misremembers it as the emperor snatchign him away before the fight starts. Or even that he did die with the slaves and was reincarnated or revived by the emperor afterwards, with his memory disrupted by the whole "being killed" thing. Or maybe the emperor is just a big softie and can't bear to watch one of his sons die in a worthless struggle and he teleports him out at the last minute on a whim. And of course there's plenty of potential explanations that could make the Emperor even more sinister. Like that he "suggested" to Angron to leave but the influence of the Nails right after makes Angron forget that he agreed to go. Or that he can't destroy the "high-riders" because Deshea is an advanced world and he needs their cooperation for something even more valuable than a broken primarch. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 21, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2013 21:39
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Angron misunderstanding his brothers (and perhaps the Emperor) is indeed one of his traits. The story about the clash between the Wolves and the World Eaters does a magnificent job at showcasing Russ' and Angron's characters. The Emperor's "crime" against him being a misunderstanding would just add to the tragedy.
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Sep 21, 2013 21:52
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UberJumper posted:The emperor of mankind is pretty much the most powerful psyker in the galaxy, he has woven history. I am sure in his infinite wisdom, he could have found a dozen of different ways to go about it. But for whatever reason he did it in the shittiest way possible. These three sentences are the best because you can drop them so many different places in the lore without editing a thing. 40k.txt right here.
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Sep 21, 2013 23:05
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Khizan posted:The clear winner of this one is Angron, imo. On this note, is it ever stated how the gently caress they managed to operate on Angron? It's not like he wasn't a primarch at that stage, it still should have been basically impossible for normal people to damage him, right?
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Sep 21, 2013 23:42
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JerryLee posted:These three sentences are the best because you can drop them so many different places in the lore without editing a thing. 40k.txt right here. The whole heresy can be summed up with the Emperor holding the idiot ball and refusing to share it with anyone. He basically forced Logar into seeking out Chaos, kidnapped his dying son from a fate he wanted because of honor and loyalty and created a rage filled monster that would never fit in with his newly found brothers, and didn't open up to Magnus on why they had to surpress their warp craft and is partly responsible for his own entombment in the golden throne afterwords. Its almost like he wanted the Heresy to happen and force all of humanity back into another age of darkness.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:21
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He's basically the Emperor of Hubrismanity during the Heresy and Great Crusade.
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Sep 22, 2013 00:46
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thespaceinvader posted:On this note, is it ever stated how the gently caress they managed to operate on Angron? It's not like he wasn't a primarch at that stage, it still should have been basically impossible for normal people to damage him, right? Primarchs are tough, not invulnerable.
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Sep 22, 2013 02:36
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thespaceinvader posted:On this note, is it ever stated how the gently caress they managed to operate on Angron? It's not like he wasn't a primarch at that stage, it still should have been basically impossible for normal people to damage him, right? Ancient tech was simple. Take these brain control rods and ram them as hard as possible into the pink meat. It rewires the brain in such a way that thousands of years after the age of darkness that we've lost all knowledge on how to remove them. All the tech priests on Mars couldn't figure out how to remove them but said gently caress it...heres some nails and a hammer. Go ahead Mr. Angry Man. Make a legion of psychos.
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Sep 22, 2013 03:32
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Cream_Filling posted:Russ loves to pretend to be a savage, and he in general seems to enjoy messing around with peoples' expectations. He's also, as characterized by Abnett, arguably one of the most perceptive and self-aware of the primarchs, and one of their more lateral thinkers, too. His problem is that he enjoys tweaking authority a little to much to ever be more than what he is or work well within a larger organization or power structure. And he's completely okay with that and seems to have limited ambitions beyond kicking rear end, being his own man, and occasionally dropping in to teach people lessons about the flaws that he sees as an intentionally "uncivilized" outsider or otherwise saying the things that no-one else is going to say (in his own oblique way). Russ is the Emperor's watchdog - the just slightly feral hound who's cunning and devious enough to take down any of his brothers, given a good clean run at them. There's a reason why Horus misdirected the Wolves off to Prospero. If Russ had realized exactly what was going on at the start of the Heresy, there's a good chance he would have short-circuited it with a bolter round. The Wolves as a whole were built for exactly the same role, though. Stubborn, independent, willing and able to take on their brothers even when that was unthinkable - Betrayer has the amazing scene where Angron is talking about Russ' attempt to bring him to heel, for example. And even after Librarians were banned, they kept using Rune-Priests, since they were almost incorruptible by Chaos. No written lore means no place to sneak in the forbidden - invoking the names and concepts of the Four in speech has a very distinct effect on those who hear it, and it's not easy to hide.
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Sep 22, 2013 04:45
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Kenlon posted:And even after Librarians were banned, they kept using Rune-Priests, since they were almost incorruptible by Chaos. No written lore means no place to sneak in the forbidden - invoking the names and concepts of the Four in speech has a very distinct effect on those who hear it, and it's not easy to hide. I thought the reasoning behind this was that they decided the Librarian ban didn't apply to Rune Priests because they were totally channeling the spirit energy of Fenris and not the Warp? Or some other such rationalization. I'm pretty sure I've seen in one of the books that a Rune Priest straight up says that to a Thousand Son. I think it might have been in Thousand Sons itself.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:54
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JerryLee posted:I thought the reasoning behind this was that they decided the Librarian ban didn't apply to Rune Priests because they were totally channeling the spirit energy of Fenris and not the Warp? Or some other such rationalization. I'm pretty sure I've seen in one of the books that a Rune Priest straight up says that to a Thousand Son. I think it might have been in Thousand Sons itself. Yes, and the Thousand Son in question calls it out as being bullshit. Because it is. The Wolves knew exactly what they were doing.
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Sep 22, 2013 05:57
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Yeah, the whole point is that the Wolves act like they have no idea what's up and that they are dumb savages when most of them are incredibly canny and are always tricking people into a false sense of security. I mean, in A Thousand Sons Magnus himself knows how tricky Russ is and he still doesn't realize that the Rune Priest sent to "learn" from them is a dude who is there purely to dig up dirt on them. The Wolves also seem to have a pretty good grasp of Chaos though and how dangerous it is. By laying down a pretty strict "some knowledge should never be known" to their practices with the Warp they seem to have insulated themselves from corruption.
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Sep 22, 2013 07:52
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It helps that the Wolves, by their vary nature, watch each other constantly for pack rivalry reasons. As they do so, they keep excellent check on any Chaotic influences that might try to infect them.
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Sep 22, 2013 08:30
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Seeing the Wolves as the Emperor's internal enforcers of last resort (it's heavily implied they dealt with at least one of the 'missing' primarchs), goes a long way to explain why they don't get along with the Imperium of M41.
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Sep 22, 2013 09:23
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Kenlon posted:Seeing the Wolves as the Emperor's internal enforcers of last resort (it's heavily implied they dealt with at least one of the 'missing' primarchs), goes a long way to explain why they don't get along with the Imperium of M41. No other chapter except maybe the Ultramarines could get away with engaging in an actual war with the Inquisition and end up dictating terms to them to end the conflict.
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Sep 22, 2013 09:48
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pentyne posted:No other chapter except maybe the Ultramarines could get away with engaging in an actual war with the Inquisition and end up dictating terms to them to end the conflict. Any of the Legions could - if they called in all their successor chapters. The Wolves just don't have to bother with that part.
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Sep 22, 2013 10:03
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IIRC, the Black Templars could do it if they pulled all their crusades together.
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Sep 22, 2013 10:09
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pentyne posted:No other chapter except maybe the Ultramarines could get away with engaging in an actual war with the Inquisition and end up dictating terms to them to end the conflict. Is there any book/series covering this? Sounds interesting.
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Sep 22, 2013 10:11
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Aries posted:Is there any book/series covering this? Sounds interesting. The Emperor's Gift by ADB. Also I've just reread Know No Fear by Abnett and for those guys asking about how other legions didn't know about Calth/warpstorms preventing communication, it's all covered there and I completely forgot about it. The giant warpstorm was called the Ruinstorm, summoned by Erebus using the power gathered from the power of betrayal or something.
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Sep 22, 2013 10:18
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Ahhh yes, great book, read it when it first came out and haven't been back to it.
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Sep 22, 2013 10:24
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Cream_Filling posted:Well, all we have is Angron's word on what happened, and he's not exactly the most sane person, so it's possible that things actually went down differently from what he thinks happened. For all we know, he was only teleported away at the end after the last slave died but his grief and guilt-ridden psyche misremembers it as the emperor snatchign him away before the fight starts. Or even that he did die with the slaves and was reincarnated or revived by the emperor afterwards, with his memory disrupted by the whole "being killed" thing. Or maybe the emperor is just a big softie and can't bear to watch one of his sons die in a worthless struggle and he teleports him out at the last minute on a whim. It's been a while since I've read it but doesn't Angron find out in Betrayer that the Emperor could have easily helped the rebellion succeed but refused to do so and took Angron away early since he needed the world compliant for his crusade and didn't want Angron doing too much damage to the military forces there? It's just a p
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Sep 22, 2013 13:56
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I mean, in A Thousand Sons Magnus himself knows how tricky Russ is and he still doesn't realize that the Rune Priest sent to "learn" from them is a dude who is there purely to dig up dirt on them. Couldn't it also have just been trust? That was before the Heresy proper and before Nikaea (since the Rune Priest in question testifies at Nikaea IIRC) so it might just not have occurred to Magnus that he had to watch his back against his brothers yet. Just like it didn't seriously occur to Guilliman that he might need to be ready for an attack from the Word Bearers. Kenlon posted:Seeing the Wolves as the Emperor's internal enforcers of last resort (it's heavily implied they dealt with at least one of the 'missing' primarchs), goes a long way to explain why they don't get along with the Imperium of M41. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but it's interesting to note that since the Wolves got tired of that centralized power poo poo once said centralized power wasn't the Emperor anymore, the High Lords seemingly had to put together a whole new chapter to serve basically the same purpose. The Minotaurs seem like they represent the Space Wolves' enforcer parts with all the pesky things, like independent thought and relative amounts of decency, pared away.
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Sep 22, 2013 16:57
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The minotaurs are pretty cool, too.
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Sep 22, 2013 17:35
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Kenlon posted:The Wolves as a whole were built for exactly the same role, though. Stubborn, independent, willing and able to take on their brothers even when that was unthinkable - Betrayer has the amazing scene where Angron is talking about Russ' attempt to bring him to heel, for example. Yeah, this scene is one of my favourites. Just Angron slowly realising decades after it happened what Russ was actually doing, and how badly he'd been defeated.
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Sep 22, 2013 18:41
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Fatty posted:Yeah, this scene is one of my favourites. Just Angron slowly realising decades after it happened what Russ was actually doing, and how badly he'd been defeated. Well, not just that but also that Russ wasn't so much acting as a self-appointed emperor's enforcer as he was trying to teach a lesson to his brother in a practical way that he might understand, since Russ is all about actions rather than words.
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Sep 22, 2013 19:39
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ADB is a really good writer, y'all.
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Sep 22, 2013 20:42
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I just read all the Horus Heresy books by ADB and Abnett, are there any other good ones? You talk of some of Mcneill's stuff like its decent, what do you recommend?
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Sep 22, 2013 23:27
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In the Horus Heresy, A Thousand Sons. It's basically the leadup to the events of Prospero Burns and the following assault from the viewpoint of Magnus and his Thousand Sons. This is the book that covers the Council of Nikaua. Outside of the Horus Heresy, Storm of Iron. It's about the Iron Warriors(Chaos Marines, not to be confused with the Iron Hands) laying siege to a fortress and it is basically  as all gently caress.
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Sep 22, 2013 23:43
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If you liked Prospero Burns, read Chris Wraight's Battle of the Fang. It's sort of a sequel to it and Thousand Sons. Chris Wraight's stuff is generally worth picking up.
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Sep 23, 2013 01:04
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Cream_Filling posted:I thought the critical punchline to that story is that Russ realizes that they're acting like petty children and starts laughing at the absurdity of their fighting, but the Lion thinks Russ is laughing at him, not with him, and punches Russ while his guard is down. Which again goes to the mythic identities of the two characters - Jonson is stiff and proud to the point of prissiness, and sometimes has trouble with people, while Russ is rash and quick to act but also keenly perceptive and ultimately good humored about it. Jonson is all about strategic and analytic genius. Russ is all about flexibility and intuition, as someone who's not as tied down by civilization. mllaneza posted:The animal-based servitors never show up again; this I'm less sure about. Using an animal is borderline cool, but on the other hand it waste a perfectly good opportunity to really, really gently caress over an enemy of the Cult Mechanicus.
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