p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Police Academy III posted:

so a guy at work was unironically pushing for us to switch our javascript to dart. looking at the wiki page it doesn't look terrible if not very exciting, basically like the web version of go. has anybody actually used it or looked at it or given a poo poo about it? or is it just gwt 2.0?

like golang, in five years it will be totally forgotten but still widely-deployed inside google

# ? Sep 22, 2013 20:19

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 10:34

spongeh: Mar 22, 2009; BREADAGRAM OF PROTECTION

Police Academy III posted:

so a guy at work was unironically pushing for us to switch our javascript to dart. looking at the wiki page it doesn't look terrible if not very exciting, basically like the web version of go. has anybody actually used it or looked at it or given a poo poo about it? or is it just gwt 2.0?

if you're dead set on using something new, write in ES6 and convert it to lesser targets. at least in 5 years you won't have abandoned code.

# ? Sep 22, 2013 20:38

pseudorandom name: May 6, 2007

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

having a well-specified standard means that when i want to interoperate with a french mainframe, an american minicomputer from the 1970s, and a japanese warehouse running Windows, i'm gonna use xml

[insert story about mumps xml parser that was based purely on predetermined byte offsets here]

# ? Sep 22, 2013 20:51

X-BUM-RAIDER-X: May 7, 2008

so what's the ironic yospos take on parsing .ini style key value stores?

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:06

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

just write a distributed map-reduce in Erlang. easy.

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:20

Suspicious Dish: Sep 24, 2011; 2020 is the year of linux on the desktop, bro; Fun Shoe

Brain Candy posted:

just write a distributed map-reduce in Erlang. easy.

i believe i did, bob

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:23

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

OBAMA BIN LinkedIn posted:

so what's the ironic yospos take on parsing .ini style key value stores?

the best way to do human-editable config. yaml can go suck a bag of dicks

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:26

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

bought an impreza outback yesterday, good tymes

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:27

suffix: Jul 27, 2013; Wheeee!

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

having a well-specified standard means that when i want to interoperate with a french mainframe, an american minicomputer from the 1970s, and a japanese warehouse running Windows, i'm gonna use xml

i really don't want to hack up my own agreed standard around french-codepage EBCDIC and windows shift-jis json

well guess what, those xml interfaces are going to be just as broken and ad-hoc as any json parser.

like one of them ignores any encoding you specify and just reads everything as ISO-8859-15,
and one of them runs a bunch of perl regexes on the input and fails if you have whitespace in a self-closing tag,
and one of them just uses print statements and doesn't escape any output data.

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:36

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

i like config files when i do them

pros :
editable by human beings in text editors

cons :
editable by human beings in text editors
is white space significant?
are there literal quotes?
how the gently caress does this thing read umlats?
wait, how I make escape sequence?
poo poo pissssssssssss why am I worrying about line separators?!

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:39

Salynne: Oct 25, 2007

Brain Candy posted:

pros :
editable by human beings in text editors

cons :
editable by human beings in text editors

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:42

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

suffix posted:

well guess what, those xml interfaces are going to be just as broken and ad-hoc as any json parser.

like one of them ignores any encoding you specify and just reads everything as ISO-8859-15,
and one of them runs a bunch of perl regexes on the input and fails if you have whitespace in a self-closing tag,
and one of them just uses print statements and doesn't escape any output data.

the ability to have "UTF-8" as part of the header and to be able to say, "no gently caress you, it doesn't validate against the schema" is a beautiful thing.

you can't stop idiots from making undocumented formats that work as implemented. this doesn't mean you have to go back to the world where your programs eat literal garbage.

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:52

Zlodo: Nov 25, 2006

re: config files, unironically just write a parser

you can define a grammar + parse a file using it in a few lines of code in c++ with a good parsing library

# ? Sep 22, 2013 21:55

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Otto Skorzeny posted:

bought an impreza outback yesterday, good tymes

U mean the turbo hatchback? I'm jelly

# ? Sep 22, 2013 22:26

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

OBAMA BIN LinkedIn posted:

so what's the ironic yospos take on parsing .ini style key value stores?

java style properties files are pretty straight forward

# ? Sep 22, 2013 22:37

markerstore: Dec 5, 2003; Canny!

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

like golang, in five years it will be totally forgotten but still widely-deployed inside google

it won't even be that

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:14

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

Shaggar posted:

java style properties files are pretty straight forward

Properties are processed in terms of lines. There are two kinds of line, natural lines and logical lines. A natural line is defined as a line of characters that is terminated either by a set of line terminator characters (\n or \r or \r\n) or by the end of the stream. A natural line may be either a blank line, a comment line, or hold all or some of a key-element pair. A logical line holds all the data of a key-element pair, which may be spread out across several adjacent natural lines by escaping the line terminator sequence with a backslash character \. Note that a comment line cannot be extended in this manner; every natural line that is a comment must have its own comment indicator, as described below. Lines are read from input until the end of the stream is reached.

A natural line that contains only white space characters is considered blank and is ignored. A comment line has an ASCII '#' or '!' as its first non-white space character; comment lines are also ignored and do not encode key-element information. In addition to line terminators, this format considers the characters space (' ', '\u0020'), tab ('\t', '\u0009'), and form feed ('\f', '\u000C') to be white space.

If a logical line is spread across several natural lines, the backslash escaping the line terminator sequence, the line terminator sequence, and any white space at the start of the following line have no affect on the key or element values. The remainder of the discussion of key and element parsing (when loading) will assume all the characters constituting the key and element appear on a single natural line after line continuation characters have been removed. Note that it is not sufficient to only examine the character preceding a line terminator sequence to decide if the line terminator is escaped; there must be an odd number of contiguous backslashes for the line terminator to be escaped. Since the input is processed from left to right, a non-zero even number of 2n contiguous backslashes before a line terminator (or elsewhere) encodes n backslashes after escape processing.

The key contains all of the characters in the line starting with the first non-white space character and up to, but not including, the first unescaped '=', ':', or white space character other than a line terminator. All of these key termination characters may be included in the key by escaping them with a preceding backslash character; for example,

\:\=

would be the two-character key ":=". Line terminator characters can be included using \r and \n escape sequences. Any white space after the key is skipped; if the first non-white space character after the key is '=' or ':', then it is ignored and any white space characters after it are also skipped. All remaining characters on the line become part of the associated element string; if there are no remaining characters, the element is the empty string "". Once the raw character sequences constituting the key and element are identified, escape processing is performed as described above.

As an example, each of the following three lines specifies the key "Truth" and the associated element value "Beauty":

Truth = Beauty
Truth:Beauty
Truth :Beauty

As another example, the following three lines specify a single property:

fruits apple, banana, pear, \
cantaloupe, watermelon, \
kiwi, mango

The key is "fruits" and the associated element is:

"apple, banana, pear, cantaloupe, watermelon, kiwi, mango"

Note that a space appears before each \ so that a space will appear after each comma in the final result; the \, line terminator, and leading white space on the continuation line are merely discarded and are not replaced by one or more other characters.

As a third example, the line:

cheeses

specifies that the key is "cheeses" and the associated element is the empty string "".

Characters in keys and elements can be represented in escape sequences similar to those used for character and string literals (see sections 3.3 and 3.10.6 of The Java� Language Specification). The differences from the character escape sequences and Unicode escapes used for characters and strings are:

* Octal escapes are not recognized.
* The character sequence \b does not represent a backspace character.
* The method does not treat a backslash character, \, before a non-valid escape character as an error; the backslash is silently dropped. For example, in a Java string the sequence "\z" would cause a compile time error. In contrast, this method silently drops the backslash. Therefore, this method treats the two character sequence "\b" as equivalent to the single character 'b'.
* Escapes are not necessary for single and double quotes; however, by the rule above, single and double quote characters preceded by a backslash still yield single and double quote characters, respectively.
* Only a single 'u' character is allowed in a Uniocde (sic) escape sequence.

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:16

Socracheese: Oct 20, 2008

im going to make a fortune by writing a framework that allows you to write lovely django knockoff frameworks quickly and easily

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:16

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Soricidus posted:

Properties are processed in terms of lines. There are two kinds of line, natural lines and logical lines. A natural line is defined as a line of characters that is terminated either by a set of line terminator characters (\n or \r or \r\n) or by the end of the stream. A natural line may be either a blank line, a comment line, or hold all or some of a key-element pair. A logical line holds all the data of a key-element pair, which may be spread out across several adjacent natural lines by escaping the line terminator sequence with a backslash character \. Note that a comment line cannot be extended in this manner; every natural line that is a comment must have its own comment indicator, as described below. Lines are read from input until the end of the stream is reached.

A natural line that contains only white space characters is considered blank and is ignored. A comment line has an ASCII '#' or '!' as its first non-white space character; comment lines are also ignored and do not encode key-element information. In addition to line terminators, this format considers the characters space (' ', '\u0020'), tab ('\t', '\u0009'), and form feed ('\f', '\u000C') to be white space.

If a logical line is spread across several natural lines, the backslash escaping the line terminator sequence, the line terminator sequence, and any white space at the start of the following line have no affect on the key or element values. The remainder of the discussion of key and element parsing (when loading) will assume all the characters constituting the key and element appear on a single natural line after line continuation characters have been removed. Note that it is not sufficient to only examine the character preceding a line terminator sequence to decide if the line terminator is escaped; there must be an odd number of contiguous backslashes for the line terminator to be escaped. Since the input is processed from left to right, a non-zero even number of 2n contiguous backslashes before a line terminator (or elsewhere) encodes n backslashes after escape processing.

The key contains all of the characters in the line starting with the first non-white space character and up to, but not including, the first unescaped '=', ':', or white space character other than a line terminator. All of these key termination characters may be included in the key by escaping them with a preceding backslash character; for example,

\:\=

would be the two-character key ":=". Line terminator characters can be included using \r and \n escape sequences. Any white space after the key is skipped; if the first non-white space character after the key is '=' or ':', then it is ignored and any white space characters after it are also skipped. All remaining characters on the line become part of the associated element string; if there are no remaining characters, the element is the empty string "". Once the raw character sequences constituting the key and element are identified, escape processing is performed as described above.

As an example, each of the following three lines specifies the key "Truth" and the associated element value "Beauty":

Truth = Beauty
Truth:Beauty
Truth :Beauty

As another example, the following three lines specify a single property:

fruits apple, banana, pear, \
cantaloupe, watermelon, \
kiwi, mango

The key is "fruits" and the associated element is:

"apple, banana, pear, cantaloupe, watermelon, kiwi, mango"

Note that a space appears before each \ so that a space will appear after each comma in the final result; the \, line terminator, and leading white space on the continuation line are merely discarded and are not replaced by one or more other characters.

As a third example, the line:

cheeses

specifies that the key is "cheeses" and the associated element is the empty string "".

Characters in keys and elements can be represented in escape sequences similar to those used for character and string literals (see sections 3.3 and 3.10.6 of The Java™ Language Specification). The differences from the character escape sequences and Unicode escapes used for characters and strings are:

* Octal escapes are not recognized.
* The character sequence \b does not represent a backspace character.
* The method does not treat a backslash character, \, before a non-valid escape character as an error; the backslash is silently dropped. For example, in a Java string the sequence "\z" would cause a compile time error. In contrast, this method silently drops the backslash. Therefore, this method treats the two character sequence "\b" as equivalent to the single character 'b'.
* Escapes are not necessary for single and double quotes; however, by the rule above, single and double quote characters preceded by a backslash still yield single and double quote characters, respectively.
* Only a single 'u' character is allowed in a Uniocde (sic) escape sequence.

Json is the same poo poo just poorly specified. Never trust a spec less than 50 pages long--the subject is either so tiny as to be useless or woefully underspecified, usually the latter

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:22

double sulk: Jul 2, 2010

markerstore posted:

it won't even be that

think it'll be dead that fast? docker is actually a cool thing written in go imo

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:24

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

i maintain a program that uses java properties files for its data, and users keep trying to edit them by hand or generate them from scripts and they always get it wrong. always.

basically gently caress users use xml

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:25

Nomnom Cookie: Aug 30, 2009

Soricidus posted:

gently caress users

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:27

X-BUM-RAIDER-X: May 7, 2008

the users arent the problem, its the computers that are terrible

# ? Sep 22, 2013 23:49

abraham linksys: Sep 6, 2010

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

like golang, in five years it will be totally forgotten but still widely-deployed inside google

go will live on for a while i think, there's nothing keeping it from continuing to exist as a more friendly c alternative, and as more and more programmers opt to skip learning c/++ it will become more popular

meanwhile dart is literally already dead, google's entire front-end situation is a trainwreck between

web toolkit (lovely, dead)
closure compiler/tools (dead except for compiler's use in clojurescript)
angular (thriving, probably going to stick around for a while)
polymer (experimental/toy, adoption doubtful)
dart (i literally forgot it existed until someone brought it up in this thread!)

ironically microsoft of all people have had a pretty popular javascript variant called typescript (that's exactly what it sounds like), whereas google can't seem to get their poo poo together at all outside of angular

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:12

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

tbh i hope rust fills that role instead of go.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:25

spongeh: Mar 22, 2009; BREADAGRAM OF PROTECTION

angular started off as a non-google project, the guy just worked for google. i'm not really sure how much involvement other google employees has, but otherwise agreed. i don't think it's really used internally there.

typescript isn't very popular when you compare it to coffeescript, but it seems to be well maintained.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:49

Posting Principle: Dec 10, 2011; by Ralp

go is for replacing plangs, not c

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:51

Vanadium: Jan 8, 2005

Condiv posted:

tbh i hope rust fills that role instead of go.

I'm really amazed the rust people get anything done with how sadistic their type system is.

I don't really see anyone picking up rust that isn't a C++ veteran who needs rust's pointer lifetime/mutability errors to get off because C++'s template errors don't do it for them anymore.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:58

Vanadium: Jan 8, 2005

I'm really digging their logo though!

# ? Sep 23, 2013 00:58

rsjr: Nov 2, 2002; yay for protoss being so simple that retards can win with it

google is gonna give front-end devs the best of both worlds. angularjs in dart https://github.com/angular/angular.dart

# ? Sep 23, 2013 01:56

Police Academy III: Nov 4, 2011

Vanadium posted:

I'm really amazed the rust people get anything done with how sadistic their type system is.

I don't really see anyone picking up rust that isn't a C++ veteran who needs rust's pointer lifetime/mutability errors to get off because C++'s template errors don't do it for them anymore.

i like rust because it seems like they're trying to tackle problems that no-one else wants to deal with, but gently caress me if trying to use it didn't make me want to tear my hair out.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 02:01

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Vanadium posted:

I'm really amazed the rust people get anything done with how sadistic their type system is.

I don't really see anyone picking up rust that isn't a C++ veteran who needs rust's pointer lifetime/mutability errors to get off because C++'s template errors don't do it for them anymore.

last time I used it, rust seemed like your average strongly typed language. which is good, gently caress c and c++'s middling type strength.

also, as an absolute beginner to the language, pointers were kind of tough for me (mainly because the program I wrote exposed like 6 compiler bugs), but not anything like the template errors in C++

# ? Sep 23, 2013 10:38

X-BUM-RAIDER-X: May 7, 2008

on the other hand, C++ owns

# ? Sep 23, 2013 10:42

unixbeard: Dec 29, 2004

C++ is probably pretty cool if you've never used anything but C++

# ? Sep 23, 2013 11:28

X-BUM-RAIDER-X: May 7, 2008

yeah you're right

C++ and perl. all u need.

# ? Sep 23, 2013 12:19

Zlodo: Nov 25, 2006

unixbeard posted:

C++ is probably pretty cool if you've never used anything but C++

I used basic assembler c c++ c# lua and javascript and i think c++ owns hth

# ? Sep 23, 2013 12:21

Zlodo: Nov 25, 2006

oh I also used python but its so awful that I'm unconsciously blocking those memories apparently

# ? Sep 23, 2013 12:23

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

Zlodo posted:

I used basic assembler c c++ c# lua and javascript and i think c++ owns hth

you think c++ is better than c#? i can understand liking it over the others in that list, but c# is awesome

also, i would think javascript is a more scarring experience than python

# ? Sep 23, 2013 12:27