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Why are people coming in and coming up with excuses for the Wii? It was a terrible system. Absolutely terrible. Xenoblade was an amazing game, and that's about it. To try and act like it sold a ton of game is laughable. I think the guy who compared it to Tickle me Elmo and Firby had it spot on. The Wii is the Cabbage Patch Kid of consoles. Or maybe Pet Rock.
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Sep 23, 2013 11:43
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You don't need to come up with 'excuses' for a system that sold a lot of units and a lot of games and made a shitload of money. You have to come up with arguments that its facially amazing success isn't what it seems.
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Sep 23, 2013 11:56
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RStar posted:Why are people coming in and coming up with excuses for the Wii? Act? It sold a poo poo load of games. Total Wii software sales are higher than NES and SNES software sales combined. Gamers dismissing it as faddish and gimmicky is one thing, but it was a huge success. The assumption that casual gamers bought it and didn't buy games is baseless. On topic: Nintendo's 2Q13 results will be out end of October. Can't see anything but bad news coming from that.
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Sep 23, 2013 11:57
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Nobody was going to buy Red Steel 2 after getting burned on Red Steel, and most of the few "core" games simply either weren't very good or were incredibly niche.Bobnumerotres posted:Even if the weak hardware allowed cheaper development, the non-existent online component turned off a lot of developers and those third party sales didn't look great. So no, you can't really blame the third parties. The Wii was an anomaly. Online is irrelevant. If you can't sell a game without online or you're turned off by it and leaving money on the table, that's your problem. The point was that the majority of third parties were unable to or unwilling to tap into the audience of the most successful console(and it was undeniably the most successful console by a large margin for most of its life) with only a few exceptions. We could debate the reasons why, but that is fundamentally a problem with them. The ones that did figure it out made a killing. Now I didn't like most of those games, but that's a different issue. It also shouldn't come as a surprise or be some whacky contention that most of the game industry is run poorly - we've had how many publishers explode in the past two years?
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Sep 23, 2013 12:07
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RStar posted:Xenoblade was an amazing game, and that's about it. To try and act like it sold a ton of game is laughable. Once games stop coming out for the Wii it'll end up with well over 900 million units of software sold. Even now with basically nothing of note releasing for the system outside of Just Dance sequels since 2011 the Wii is still ahead on software sales by ~88 million over the X360 and ~159 million over the PS3. The average Wii owner has bought just shy of 9 games for the system (8.9, behind but still close to the X360s 10.3 and PS3s 9.1.) People bought Wii games, they were just likely to either have a Mario property on the cover or be tied in to fitness or music in some way. With that in mind, I do think what they're doing with Wii Fit U is a good attempt at bringing back the casual/fitness market. The Fit Meter (assuming it's at all accurate and doesn't require a crazy amount of batteries to run) is an absolute steal at $20 when trackers like the Fitbit and Fuelband are anywhere from $60-$150+. I don't know how many systems it'll sell on its own, but (again, if marketed correctly) the combo of the Fit Meter and the Wii Fit U might be something that begins to drive the casual market purchases as we hit the holidays.
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Sep 23, 2013 12:28
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Buffer posted:Online is irrelevant. That's what Nintendo thinks too, it certainly explains why their online stuff is basically terrible. As it turns out, having decent online and a large online community is pretty important for some of the most popular third party games in the industry today. You can dance around it all you want, blame developers and publishers for "not being at Nintendo's level", and write all kinds of Nintendo Fanfiction in which the world does exactly what you and Nintendo wants it to do, but there's a lot of gamers out there who really do enjoy playing games online with their friends. You can't really ignore what that adds to a game anymore. Nintendo is finding out first hand (again, for like the third time in a row) what happens when you don't actually try to work with third parties on the things they want in a new consoles as opposed to just putting something out there and expecting the devs to come to you. Maybe it's not so important in Japan, but out in the West, having good online features, either through multiplayer support, or even something a trivial as leaderboards and achievements, is something that people really get behind. I don't understand why people like you think that stuff is irrelevant for everyone just because you don't care about it. The competition is proof enough that catering to that demand is important.
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Sep 23, 2013 12:36
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I care about online, I care about couch multiplayer more on consoles, but I don't not care about online. Online simply is not relevant to why no one but Nintendo and a handful of publishers could actually make money on the Wii. There was an audience there, people sold to it - Ubi made a poo poo ton off it - this isn't some crazy assertion. A lot of publishers completely hosed up by ignoring the Wii or thinking only in terms of the 360/PS3 audience and left an awful lot of money on the table, and the only debatable assertion is that a lot of those same mistakes led to other mistakes that ripped through the big publishers and killed quite a few. If you want to talk about the Wii U's problems, online is only relevant in terms of if it's turning off customers and how many it is turning off. Nintendo's problem is that there isn't much of an audience on the WiiU right now and the important question is why and online may be a part of that, but we were talking about the Wii.
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Sep 23, 2013 12:54
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Buffer posted:If you want to talk about the Wii U's problems, online is only relevant in terms of if it's turning off customers and how many it is turning off. Nintendo's problem is that there isn't much of an audience on the WiiU right now and the important question is why and online may be a part of that, but we were talking about the Wii. Right, but the thread is primarily about the Wii U. If you want to ask whether or not Nintendo's online infrastructure is turning away customers, I'd say yes. It's unfriendly to people going digital, the "account" system on the Wii U is a joke. Third parties have already thrown their hat in the ring heavily in favor of the upcoming consoles, and like it or not, third parties are a significant part of the console market. Their needs, power and online infrastructure, are being met on systems not named the Wii U. Their games will go to other consoles, and people will buy those consoles for those games. Sure, the Wii U's getting CoD, but at this point it doesn't matter. The people who own the Wii U right now mostly don't give a poo poo about CoD, if the sales for BLOPS 2 are anything to go by. I think that even if Nintendo turned it around and basically made their service on par with Live or PSN, it probably wouldn't change anything for the types of gamers who already have years of time and money invested in these other platforms. Live is still ludicrously popular. Sony regularly gives away free stuff as an incentive to stay on board with their service. Nintendo would be competing with already established services and communities, and after years of losing those core gamers to the competition, it will be tough to get them back. The Wii U could have gotten GTAV, and it likely would still be the worst selling version of the game (despite potentially being the best looking and running version of the game among the current gen consoles). Nintendo basically missed the boat at cultivating a large online community while building up a service. It's nice that the Wii "won" the previous generation by basically not doing anything the competition did. The Wii U's sales are saying that it didn't matter at all how well the Wii did. What matters is the things that the Wii did not prepare Nintendo for when they started drawing up the plans for the Wii U.
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Sep 23, 2013 13:18
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fivegears4reverse posted:Sure, the Wii U's getting CoD, but at this point it doesn't matter. The people who own the Wii U right now mostly don't give a poo poo about CoD, if the sales for BLOPS 2 are anything to go by. It sold like poo poo, but in terms of attachment rate (ie what percentage of owners bought it) it did pretty well, pretty comparable to the other consoles. Wasn't there that statistic about 1/3 of all Xbox 360s not being connected to the internet at all? Online is very important to some people, but it isn't very important to everyone and more importantly even if it turns off you and the hardcore gamers you know, it isn't the only thing wrong with the Wii U. quote:The Wii U could have gotten GTAV, and it likely would still be the worst selling version of the game That's a little unfair. Every single Wii U owner would've needed to buy 3 copies to make that the best selling version. That was an idea I brought up earlier though, they really should have made an effort on GTA5 or another multiplat game based around single player. The mainstream coverage and hype around that game is absurd and Nintendo need all the attention they can get.
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Sep 23, 2013 13:27
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When your line of games consoles goes from a distant first place to a distant last place, then you need to realise where you hosed up, and how to find your way back. Sony may win back the majority of the market share if the PS4 does well, but is there any way for Nintendo to do the same? The Wii's sales are an anomaly when compared with the downward trend of Nintendo console sales, with the Wii U carrying on where the Gamecube left off. These are lifetime sales of the consoles taken from Wikipedia. Since the Wii U's been out for less than a year, it's not exactly accurate to compare it to the longer-living previous consoles, but it shows how each one has done worse than the last, with the exception of the Wii. This is despite the industry growing, so Nintendo has also had a smaller percentage of console owners using their one. Unless Nintendo makes another console that's as universally appealing as the Wii, and markets it correctly, they'll never be able to match its success. Either they can write off the Wii U, and focus on the 3DS, or they can try and make the Wii U more appealing for developers and gamers. The Wii made a great second console, since it had some great multiplayer games, as well as some brilliant titles like Super Mario Galaxy which were both exclusive and didn't feel held back by the hardware. Nintendo could focus on making must-have games that are not simply rehashes of ones they've released before, and they could at least bring some relapsed Nintendo fans back to the system.
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Sep 23, 2013 15:59
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Peel posted:You don't need to come up with 'excuses' for a system that sold a lot of units and a lot of games and made a shitload of money. You have to come up with arguments that its facially amazing success isn't what it seems. The focus on less committal casual gamers as its core audience left Nintendo without much of a user base when that audience drifted to smartphones and tablets. It put Nintendo behind in HD development, and it furthered the stigma of Nintendo's reliance on short-lasting gimmicks, so that the Wii U was less likely to be taken seriously. It also created the idea of a "war chest" that will keep Nintendo alive forever, like RIM.
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Sep 23, 2013 17:23
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Toady posted:The focus on less committal casual gamers as its core audience left Nintendo without much of a user base when that audience drifted to smartphones and tablets. It put Nintendo behind in HD development, and it furthered the stigma of Nintendo's reliance on short-lasting gimmicks, so that the Wii U was less likely to be taken seriously. It also created the idea of a "war chest" that will keep Nintendo alive forever, like RIM. I don't understand why people keep making the RIM comparison. The 3DS is still at the top of its market, staving off the PSP/Vita and even the very products that sunk RIM. The Wii U is a big update to the Wii which introduces a huge boost in hardware capabilities and a brand new input method as opposed to RIM who honestly thought they had the best input device in the game and did not respond to market threats in the slightest.
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Sep 23, 2013 17:46
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The RIM comparison is made when someone brings up Nintendo's bank account, because RIM is considered irrelevant today despite having more than $2 billion lying around. It's just a refutation of that particular point.
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Sep 23, 2013 18:08
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The success of Nintendo often flip flops in this thread between hardware/software sold and profits. So to contrast, here is chart of their revenue made since before the NES came out  Their lack of console sales certainly historically hasn't led to a lack of profit by any means. I realize this doesn't account for inflation of separate the Portable vs. Console market, but just throwing it out there. The inflation of the Yen is not anywhere near the dollar though...
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Sep 23, 2013 18:15
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Is that their revenue or their profit, please disambiguate. vvvvvv Ahh good point! Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 18:42
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Jeffrey posted:Is that their revenue or their profit, please disambiguate. I doubt they had negative revenue in 2012. That graph is of net profit. But yeah, their profits stayed steady for a while before the Wii explosion (caused by having a successful handheld and home console at the same time) because their handhelds had been carrying the consoles pretty hard. Crowbear fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 18:48
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What happened during 2004?
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Sep 23, 2013 18:58
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The finished developing and released the DS, which may have caused development costs - especially given it was dual screen, and using at the time new touchscreen technology - to spike for a bit.
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Sep 23, 2013 19:03
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Jeffrey posted:Is that their revenue or their profit, please disambiguate. Net profit, taken from this document here http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/library/historical_data/pdf/consolidated_pl_e1306.pdf Shinku ABOOKEN posted:What happened during 2004? Probably R&D on the Nintendo DS. There seem to be drops the year before major systems are released. Here is their 2004 Annual Report http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2004/annual0403e.pdf quote:In Fiscal 2004, the global video game industry faced hardware pricing competition while the U.S. market, which had maintained
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Sep 23, 2013 19:04
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:What happened during 2004? The other lower years seem to all be console release preparation, which makes sense as they spend more on r+d. 1995 is a year before n64, 2000 is a year before gamecube, and 2005 is two year before wii. I know they first demoed the motion controls in 2005 so maybe a lot of the r+d was done in 2004 for those? EDIT: DS makes sense and fills in that gap. I'm not surprised that newer handhelds have a larger upfront cost to develop, previously they really rode out the wave of that original gameboy.
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Sep 23, 2013 19:07
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TaurusOxford posted:It's third parties' fault that they can't compete with the popularity of Nintendo franchises? It's third parties' fault that clearly most people bought Nintendo games and nothing else? It's third parties fault Nintendo made a system that alienated developers cause it was underpowered and lacking in features compared to the PS3/360? Yep. If they couldn't find a way to make money by making good games which would require a substantially lower budget than games on the hd twins...considering the size of the userbase, and the fact that many people would have liked to buy more Wii software that was quality and to their tastes...absolutely. Who else could really be blamed for their failure to find success on the Wii? Many didn't try, others gave us laughable 'efforts'. Bottled lightning or no, Nintendo created an opportunity for third parties which few made any worthwhile use of. Period, imo. I wonder if, should the PS4 actually sell well past the initial early-adopter pre-order crowd phase, we will get a thread asking "Is PS4 the next Tickle Me Elmo?". I'm guessing no. Which is appropriate because, like the Wii, it will be a machine that plays good games that will have value for gamers for many years. Much the same way the Wii U is already providing me with great games even though it has had a tremendous drought. It has value as a gaming machine which will not fade just because people stopped buying it.
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Sep 23, 2013 19:12
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Jumbled_Johnsons posted:I wonder if, should the PS4 actually sell well past the initial early-adopter pre-order crowd phase, we will get a thread asking "Is PS4 the next Tickle Me Elmo?". If it doesn't sell well it's going to be a really bad time time for console games... I personally think the PS4 is filled with too many PS3 multiplatform titles to justify spending $400 when people have the attitude of oh I'll just wait for a price drop and not miss out on the same games.
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Sep 23, 2013 19:35
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"There weren't enough compelling third party games on the underpowered moms-and-kids console because the third parties suck" is a loving Nintendo as hell thing to say. When a large part of your model is licensing fees, third parties are your customer as much as the game buying public is. Those customers weren't happy with their experience on the Wii, and they're sitting out the WiiU. Nintendo just doesn't see third parties as their customer the way Microsoft and Sony do. Nintendo has made it clear that they aren't willing to do anything but pay lipservice to get them back - what, exactly, are the third parties doing wrong in this situation by supporting the platforms put out by people actually interested in their input?
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Sep 23, 2013 20:57
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I'ts funny Nintendo still treats developers the exact same way they did when they had a stranglehold on the market almost thirty years ago in that they should be honored to even be creating a game for a Nintendo console. You'd think they would have noticed they aren't in that position anymore by now.
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Sep 23, 2013 22:11
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Do they still have that funny 'approved by nintendo' sticker?
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Sep 23, 2013 22:13
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Boiled Water posted:Do they still have that funny 'approved by nintendo' sticker? I once heard someone say something like "It wasn't meant to say the game was good, just that it was playable". Well, that doesn't explain Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
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Sep 23, 2013 22:17
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WickedHate posted:I once heard someone say something like "It wasn't meant to say the game was good, just that it was playable". Well, that doesn't explain Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. E: It just meant they'd paid their licensing fees. Astro7x posted:If it doesn't sell well it's going to be a really bad time time for console games... I personally think the PS4 is filled with too many PS3 multiplatform titles to justify spending $400 when people have the attitude of oh I'll just wait for a price drop and not miss out on the same games. If the Bone and PS4 don't do well it's going to be a goddamn loving bloodbath of closing studios. Hell, just one of them tanking is likely to be pretty bad, a lot of the big publishers aren't exactly in the most stable of states and the past few years have been pretty brutal(with just enough bright spots to keep 'em hooked) in regards to the AAA model. Buffer fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 22:19
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They still have the official Nintendo seal on stuff but it doesn't say "of quality" anymore.
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Sep 23, 2013 22:19
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Toady posted:The focus on less committal casual gamers as its core audience left Nintendo without much of a user base when that audience drifted to smartphones and tablets. It put Nintendo behind in HD development, and it furthered the stigma of Nintendo's reliance on short-lasting gimmicks, so that the Wii U was less likely to be taken seriously. It also created the idea of a "war chest" that will keep Nintendo alive forever, like RIM. It wasn't so much the focus on the casual gamers, it was the treatment of them as disposable consumers. Nintendo didn't do anything to cultivate that base or offer followup products that they would be interested in, they sold them the Wii on the strength of Wii Sports and later Wii Fit, got as much money out of them as they could with cheapo gimmick waggle titles, then just left them hanging. They gave the people who gladly hopped on board no reason to stay interested, and then asked "Wait, why aren't you just giving us more money?" Casual gamers want casual things, they don't want lovely casual things. The Wii took off not just because waggle was cool but because Wii Sports was an excellent introduction. The stuff that followed was mostly gimmicky garbage and people saw it once the novelty wore off and they realized they were paying $50 a pop for garbage products. There were some excellent, top tier products available on the Wii like Mario Galaxy and Donkey Kong Country Returns, but those games are of no interest to the demographic the Wii captivated at launch. They were able to attract a huge nongaming audience but had no idea what to do with them when they showed up. And hey, people moved on to smartphones and tablets? Integrate that somehow into your tablet-knockoff system! People don't use smartphones and tablets because they like rectangles, they use them because they're convenient and omnipresent. The Wii U imitates the form of a tablet but not its function, it's absolutely stupid. Do some bullshit with Nintendoland and similar games where doing stuff there lets you unlock ringtones and apps and post poo poo on your friends' walls. A thing where beating level 4 lets you download a terrible photoshop app that lets you insert your friends' face into a mario catsuit would be way more interesting to my mom than using a tablet touchscreen to insert blocks in mario multiplayer with gamer friends who don't exist. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Sep 23, 2013 |
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Sep 23, 2013 22:49
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WickedHate posted:I once heard someone say something like "It wasn't meant to say the game was good, just that it was playable". Well, that doesn't explain Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. A few games slipped through but compare the entire Atari 2600 library to the NES library, which is why that seal was made. That seal of quality might not be infallible but for the most part NES games were playable and complete.
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Sep 23, 2013 23:11
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Jumbled_Johnsons posted:If they couldn't find a way to make money by making good games which would require a substantially lower budget than games on the hd twins...considering the size of the userbase, and the fact that many people would have liked to buy more Wii software that was quality and to their tastes...absolutely. Problem is, that opportunity consisted of a hundred million people who just wanted to waggle sticks at the screen for ten minutes or so, hardly the audience for your latest 40-hour RPG.
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Sep 24, 2013 06:30
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whaley posted:They still have the official Nintendo seal on stuff but it doesn't say "of quality" anymore. Really? That can't be true. I always remember, "Look for the seal of quality! It meets Nintendo's high standards." Don't tell me they really felt enough shame to remove that.
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Sep 24, 2013 06:59
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:A few games slipped through but compare the entire Atari 2600 library to the NES library, which is why that seal was made. That seal of quality might not be infallible but for the most part NES games were playable and complete. James Rolfe has spawned an entire genre of Youtube videos almost solely from him complaining about how poo poo NES games were (less than 30 of his 100+ episodes are not about NES games).
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Sep 24, 2013 09:03
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Al Borland posted:Really? I just checked some of my Nintendo games, it looks like anything newer than N64 only says "Official Nintendo Seal".
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Sep 24, 2013 13:48
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So, to put this in perspective, Beyond Good and Evil only has a seal, while Superman 64 has the "Seal of Quality".
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Sep 24, 2013 14:24
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Konjuro posted:I just checked some of my Nintendo games, it looks like anything newer than N64 only says "Official Nintendo Seal". All of my PAL Gamecube games still say "Official Nintendo Seal of Quality".
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Sep 24, 2013 14:26
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Astro7x posted:The success of Nintendo often flip flops in this thread between hardware/software sold and profits. So to contrast, here is chart of their revenue made since before the NES came out
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Sep 24, 2013 14:28
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Fulchrum posted:James Rolfe has spawned an entire genre of Youtube videos almost solely from him complaining about how poo poo NES games were (less than 30 of his 100+ episodes are not about NES games). I wish he'd do more SNES games. Lots of SNES games were garbage too, we just forgot about them.
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Sep 24, 2013 14:39
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Shibawanko posted:I wish he'd do more SNES games. Lots of SNES games were garbage too, we just forgot about them. He doesn't have as extensive a collection of SNES games. Even before he started the series, one of his hobbies was collecting a copy of all the NES games ever made, whereas the SNES stuff is his personal collection, plus some stuff he's collected for the show. Fulchrum fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Sep 24, 2013 |
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Sep 24, 2013 14:57
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waffle posted:Even if it's lower than the dollar, without being adjusted for inflation this graph is completely meaningless. Not that I'm about to try to adjust all of those profits for inflation, and not that you should bother to take the time either, but this graph doesn't really say anything without at least a plot of inflation over time overlaid. At the very least it puts the recent loss in perspective. And it you total it all up it reflects their current war chest of money in reserve.
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Sep 24, 2013 15:51
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