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Since there was interest, and again sorry about the lovely photo of photo quality, and yes these are from a photo album:     I also went back and looked at the journal I kept during all this. I think part of the conspiracy business with 9/11 was nobody knew what the gently caress was going on all the way up to the top. We got told the same day that our campus (apparently it was the largest federal property with water access close to Manhattan) was going to be used as a staging area for sorting bodies and that they were expecting 50,000 to 60,000. Obviously that was wrong. By Thursday, our Naval Science teachers (mix of aviators and intel guys) were talking about Afghanistan being something that was going to happen. Later (seem to remember it being the two month-ish point) there was a regimental dinner where we were all told that instead of a normal sea year ( USMMA students get sent out on US Merchant Marine vessel in pairs of two as cadets) that we would be used as unlicensed deck and engine ratings (and paid as such) to support the ensuing massive sea-lift needed to kick somebody rear end. I seem to remember that one coming from the CJCS, who was the guest for the dinner. That also never ended up happening. Conspiracy theories are often a coping mechanism in the face of a harsher reality. Even if we participate in an event we still don't know what the gently caress happened. Hell I don't know if I experienced the same event that the rest of you did. About the only thing I was able to watch as far as the television coverage goes was the President's speech. I didn't see a lot of that imagery until years afterwards. Most notably I don't think we had the "lack of control" thing going on that a lot of the general public did. Our waterfront people (the power squad, sailing people ,etc) were ferrying cops and firefighters to Manhattan and back. The training vessel had been set up in the sound sort of as a floating hotel/restaurant for firefighters. Most of us didn't get to do those things, but we got to deliver meals (mostly box lunches) and stand watches down on the water front supporting the ones that did. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 20:41
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So what are the thoughts about the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth"? I wouldn't doubt that the "thousands" of scientists who are a part of it are grad students or computer engineers or something far removed from any authority on the subject, but I was wondering if anyone knew more about them. Also Ed Asner is apparently a 9/11 Truther. How disappointing.
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Sep 25, 2013 21:36
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Last time I checked, they had about 2000 "architects and engineers" supporting their cause. Even if all of them are qualified it's but a tiny part of the millions of architects and engineers that exist in the world. There are more than 2000 scientists that believe in Flat earth theory. There are more than 2000 scientists who believe in Young earth theory. There are tens of thousands on scientists that don't believe in evolution. They simply advertise the 2000 number because it appears huge to the layman. People tend to have problem understanding numbers above ~30, and the misunderstanding increases exponentially as the number in question increases. Conspiracy theories tend to brake down large numbers and weird definitions to simple examples that everyone can understand. The scientific reports can't do that. I am fairly certain that if the official story read "a Boeing 767, under perfectly ideal conditions, produces X amount of kinetic energy. The atomic bomb in Hiroshima produced 100X." more truthers would believe that it's possible for a plane to destroy a skyscraper".
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Sep 25, 2013 22:16
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AlliedBiscuit posted:So what are the thoughts about the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth"? I wouldn't doubt that the "thousands" of scientists who are a part of it are grad students or computer engineers or something far removed from any authority on the subject, but I was wondering if anyone knew more about them. Also Ed Asner is apparently a 9/11 Truther. How disappointing. Otherwise known as the Argument from Authority Institute. Having credentials doesn't make dumb things smart when they come out of your mouth. Highly educated people are just as vulnerable to faulty thinking and conspiracy theories as uneducated people. Also, there are way more architects and engineers who don't join nutter organizations, and presumably don't buy into this conspiracy stuff. The 5 largest architecture firms in the world each employ over a thousand architects, so 2,000 isn't an impressive number of credentialed members. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:25
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This is probably really the wrong thread for this, but is there any way to view past membership rolls for the John Birch Society? Supposedly my step-great-grandfather was a founding member, but googling his name plus John Birch brings up nadda. I've emailed the public relations guy and if that doesn't work I'm going to try to contact them more directly. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm writing a family history and I like digging out these kooky stories about my relatives. Already found out that his wife was an early science fiction fan who was heavily involved in fandom, haha More on topic, after skimming the JBS website I saw a lot about 'Agenda 21'. What the hell is that about? e. WAIT on a hunch I googled my great-grandmother's name along with John Birch and found out that SHE was the Bircher  My family had it all wrong!ohhh boy  We always thought her husband was the one to drag her into the conspiracy theories, now I'm wondering if it was the other way around.
platedlizard fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:50
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platedlizard posted:This is probably really the wrong thread for this, but is there any way to view past membership rolls for the John Birch Society? Supposedly my step-great-grandfather was a founding member, but googling his name plus John Birch brings up nadda. I've emailed the public relations guy and if that doesn't work I'm going to try to contact them more directly. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm writing a family history and I like digging out these kooky stories about my relatives. Already found out that his wife was an early science fiction fan who was heavily involved in fandom, haha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21 Is what it really is, but according to the JBS and other whacko groups, its a UN plan to overthrow the US government and take peoples property. Its not much different from the FEMA conspiracy theories of the 80s CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Sep 25, 2013 |
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Sep 25, 2013 22:52
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CommieGIR posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenda_21 Wikipedia posted:Agenda 21 is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan of the United Nations with regard to sustainable development.[1] That's hilarious, considering how much they were making GBS threads their pants over it.
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Sep 25, 2013 22:57
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AlliedBiscuit posted:So what are the thoughts about the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth"? I wouldn't doubt that the "thousands" of scientists who are a part of it are grad students or computer engineers or something far removed from any authority on the subject, but I was wondering if anyone knew more about them. Also Ed Asner is apparently a 9/11 Truther. How disappointing. The vast majority of "Architects and engineers" aren't qualified to determine the cause of a building collapse.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:06
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I'm curious if there's a greater amount of conspiracy theorists today than there were in the past, or if their voices are merely amplified by the internet. My hypothesis is that as a percentage of the whole, the number hasn't changed (although the conspiracies have), it just feels bigger because there's an easier platform to broadcast from now.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:29
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platedlizard posted:That's hilarious, considering how much they were making GBS threads their pants over it. quote:Section I: Social and Economic Dimensions is directed toward combatting poverty, especially in developing countries, changing consumption patterns, promoting health, achieving a more sustainable population, and sustainable settlement in decision making.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:32
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McDowell posted:Besides the guy who got Bush II's paintings this was an interesting result from hacking Colin Powell's phone I see George Shultz in the middle and Stephen Colbert on the far right.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:37
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serewit posted:I'm curious if there's a greater amount of conspiracy theorists today than there were in the past, or if their voices are merely amplified by the internet. My hypothesis is that as a percentage of the whole, the number hasn't changed (although the conspiracies have), it just feels bigger because there's an easier platform to broadcast from now. Well according to what I just dug up on my great-grandmother they were pretty common back in the day after WWII. She bought fully into the Red Scare/McCarthyism/John Birch Society poo poo and apparently had hilarious flamewars with other science fiction fans in the letters pages and editorials of fanzines over her beliefs. 
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Sep 26, 2013 00:41
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platedlizard posted:...had hilarious flamewars with other science fiction fans in the letters pages and editorials of fanzines over her beliefs. We have invented nothing. Also, I love how conspiracy theorists break off into their own groups and argue over the details of a conspiracy. They can't even agree with each other and from what I'm told, most conspiracy theorist groups really hate each other.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:01
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Is there any refutation of the 'thermite was found in the debris' claim. My truther brother is throwing that at me as definite proof the towers were rigged to collapse.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:11
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platedlizard posted:Well according to what I just dug up on my great-grandmother they were pretty common back in the day after WWII. She bought fully into the Red Scare/McCarthyism/John Birch Society poo poo and apparently had hilarious flamewars with other science fiction fans in the letters pages and editorials of fanzines over her beliefs. You might enjoy this. The John Birch Society began in 1958. By in the early 60s, the Governor of California was getting grief from John Birch Society members, so he asked his attorney general to find out who the Birchers were, what they believed, and what should be done about them. This was the official response. "“The cadre of the John Birch Society seems to be formed primarily of wealthy businessmen, retired military officers, and little old ladies in tennis shoes.... they are bound together by an obsessive fear of communism, which they define as any ideas different from their own.... they are pathetic." The attorney general recommended ignoring and ridiculing them.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:11
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Execu-speak posted:Is there any refutation of the 'thermite was found in the debris' claim. My truther brother is throwing that at me as definite proof the towers were rigged to collapse. I'll make it easy for you. http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm That site covers the entire waterfront of truther nonsesne.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:13
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predicto posted:You might enjoy this. Its pretty sad that Bircher beliefs are pretty much the same as the modern GOP, just include Liberal, Nazi, Fascist, Socialist, Muslim and Gay along with communist as synonyms for "things we don't like".
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Sep 26, 2013 01:18
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predicto posted:I'll make it easy for you. I've pimped this before, but http://www.metabunk.org/ covers all conspiracy nonsense and it's run by a guy whose written a few books on how to methodically debunk things. Edit: Specifically, it primarily operates as a forum. PrinceRandom fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 01:23
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Execu-speak posted:Is there any refutation of the 'thermite was found in the debris' claim. My truther brother is throwing that at me as definite proof the towers were rigged to collapse. hahahaha! What's thermite made out of? Aluminum and iron oxide. Yeah there might be just a tad bit of those two elements floating around in the debris from two gigantic skyscrapers.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:24
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predicto posted:I'll make it easy for you. I've seen that but it's a bit out of date, he's been ranting about how apparently actual fragments of it were found, tested and confirmed as in the latest loose change 'documentary' an American coup. I'm so tired of his ravings I just want something which smacks it down specifically.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:25
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Sergg posted:hahahaha! What's thermite made out of? Aluminum and iron oxide. Yeah there might be just a tad bit of those two elements floating around in the debris from two gigantic skyscrapers. Or an aircraft (entirely aluminium)
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Sep 26, 2013 01:28
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Execu-speak posted:I've seen that but it's a bit out of date, he's been ranting about how apparently actual fragments of it were found, tested and confirmed as in the latest loose change 'documentary' an American coup. Oh look, we've found both aluminum dust and iron oxide dust! In the wreckage of these two enormous skyscrapers! For real though, if you debunk this one, your brother will just go on to the next truther one. You have to address the root causes of his conspiracy thinking.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:28
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CommieGIR posted:Or an aircraft (entirely aluminium) Wait, you're telling me that if you take one gigantic object made mostly of aluminum, and smash it into another object made mostly of iron, and then the remnants of those objects are super-heated by jet fuel and collapse into a giant pile on the ground, that some of object A and some of object B are going to be fused together? Did I get that right? That sounds pretty crazy man, I dunno.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:31
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Sergg posted:Wait, you're telling me that if you take one gigantic object made mostly of aluminum, and smash it into another object made mostly of iron, and then the remnants of those objects are super-heated by jet fuel and collapse into a giant pile on the ground, that some of object A and some of object B are going to be fused together? Did I get that right? That sounds pretty crazy man, I dunno. Yeah, like I'll believe you and your GOVERNMENT-SPONSERED information! MY theories were completely free from that NWO bullshit learning.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:45
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Sergg posted:Wait, you're telling me that if you take one gigantic object made mostly of aluminum, and smash it into another object made mostly of iron, and then the remnants of those objects are super-heated by jet fuel and collapse into a giant pile on the ground, that some of object A and some of object B are going to be fused together? Did I get that right? That sounds pretty crazy man, I dunno. Aluminium, like magnesium alloys, burns pretty freely once you heat it up enough.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:55
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Sergg posted:Oh look, we've found both aluminum dust and iron oxide dust! In the wreckage of these two enormous skyscrapers! Oh I've tried, I even used occams razor on him, he just won't listen. Every year he spews the same tired old bulshit.
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Sep 26, 2013 02:08
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Execu-speak posted:Oh I've tried, I even used occams razor on him, he just won't listen. Every year he spews the same tired old bulshit. Its because half these conspiracy theorists have no skepticism, if they hear something they think is plausible they don't bother investigating any further.
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Sep 26, 2013 02:13
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Execu-speak posted:Oh I've tried, I even used occams razor on him, he just won't listen. Every year he spews the same tired old bulshit. In my own personal life, whenever I hear this from people I just get snarky and say "Actually it was me. I did 9/11." Either that or I posit my own conspiracy theory that's even more ridiculous than the one I'm presented with, but directly contradicting theirs. Like, the Irish Mafia or black Nazis or somebody is responsible for it.
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Sep 26, 2013 06:09
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BrandorKP posted:Since there was interest, and again sorry about the lovely photo of photo quality, and yes these are from a photo album: I really do think that whats key to conspiracy theories is that they are *narratives*. Myth or stories that help people feel that the abstract and impersonal forces around them. Sometimes capitalism, sometimes strange dudes in weird hats crashing planes into buildings and making everything go pear shaped, whatever. Things that just don't make sense but feel bad , well who the gently caress do we blame? By providing a simple good vs evil narrative ("The bad man did it") suddenly its possible to align with the good guy and its all about exposing and fighting the super villians. This is kind of why I think marxism or some other form of critical theory needs to make a come back, because the great insight of the left is that ultimately the world is undirected, and that the bad poo poo is *emergant* from the economic forces. Baddies do not create the structure of society, but rather the structure of society creates baddies. I sometimes use the example of an ecosystem where all of us are goldfish and theres some sharks in the water. If you kill the shark, another shark will take its place. If you kill ALL the sharks, humboldt squid will start tearing poo poo apart. whats really needed is to kill the ecosystem (This is the part of the analogy where my green friends start getting nervous lol) so that it can't even support predators. Capitalism requires predators. Anarcho-socialism gives predators no prey. Allan Moore, 2003 posted:The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless." duck monster fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 06:46
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duck monster posted:Alan Moore quote. I'm not a comic reader, but from this I take it that From Hell was a statement about conspiracy theories, or at least simply used one as a fun narrative tool rather than take it seriously?
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Sep 26, 2013 13:57
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duck monster posted:Yep. Exactly. A while ago there was a thread about 9/11 and constructed media images, the real, and post structuralist thought. I remember you posting in it, but I don't remember if you started it. I wrote a very long post for that thread (I have a very odd relationship with the symbols of 9/11, totally missed the media, saw the event but only on the horizon, and I'm actually wearing an image of the towers right now on my class ring) that I never posted. That was an incredible thread to read. Anyway, I would agree that we need more critical theory to respond to this stuff. But I think you should be careful. It seems to me that you are talking about an emancipation from narratives and story by asserting "the world is undirected" or that we should "kill the ecosystem." When you say that you imply that doing so would protect us from or deliver us from those narratives and story. In other-words there is an implied salvation. To imply a salvation, is to imply a narrative that fundamentally underlies. ("If there shall be salvation: there must be this concept of the Logos".) I got inoculated against interpreting the events of 9/11 with a simplistic narrative pretty early on. The Commandant gave the sermon the Sunday after and he went with Job. I've always thought it was a ballsy thing for him to tell several hundred people who saw the towers coming down on the horizon (with a few who had been in the city), who a large percentage of had been in them the weekend before, and who a moderate percentage of had parents in the air on planes flying home on 9/11, that there is no answer or explanation to be found.
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Sep 26, 2013 18:21
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There is no freedom from narrative. We structure our thoughts and perceptions according to rules, some of which are explicit and well-defined (formal academics, math and sciences, religious ceremony, etc) and some implicit (social rules, personal thoughts and conversations). Understanding something doesn't free you from it.
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Sep 26, 2013 18:38
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Now that's really interesting, no free from. I might have to read more about that. I think I would end up arguing that rules are a narrative, but this isn't the thread for it. Edit: I think I misunderstood you. No freedom from narrative and no freedom from narrative are very different things and I don't know which you intended. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Sep 27, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 19:07
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If anything, understanding is a burden. Especially in a world where we have so little influence regarding how socioeconomic systems running our lives progress/change.
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Sep 26, 2013 19:08
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Execu-speak posted:I've seen that but it's a bit out of date, he's been ranting about how apparently actual fragments of it were found, tested and confirmed as in the latest loose change 'documentary' an American coup. I've heard the thermite argument so many times and it makes absolutely no sense. Everyone remembers what it looked like when the towers fell, compare it to what thermite actually looks like when it goes off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdCsbZf1_Ng&t=137s This is the poo poo that was supposed to be placed everywhere throughout the WTC - and yet there's not a single shot of molten metal spraying everywhere.
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Sep 27, 2013 14:58
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Gorilla Salad posted:I've heard the thermite argument so many times and it makes absolutely no sense. Everyone remembers what it looked like when the towers fell, compare it to what thermite actually looks like when it goes off: Well, if you go through 320p youtube videos frame by frame, it's obvious that
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Sep 27, 2013 16:11
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Gorilla Salad posted:I've heard the thermite argument so many times and it makes absolutely no sense. Everyone remembers what it looked like when the towers fell, compare it to what thermite actually looks like when it goes off: Uhm that's Thermite, the stuff in WTC was Nanothermite.
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Sep 27, 2013 22:57
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Hodgepodge posted:There is no freedom from narrative. We structure our thoughts and perceptions according to rules, some of which are explicit and well-defined (formal academics, math and sciences, religious ceremony, etc) and some implicit (social rules, personal thoughts and conversations). But if enough people understand the narrative concept - and realize they can assert agency - it can make things messy.
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Sep 28, 2013 00:09
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HUMAN FISH posted:Uhm that's Thermite, the stuff in WTC was Nanothermite. That's the stuff that moves goalposts right?
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Sep 28, 2013 07:41
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twistedmentat posted:That's the stuff that moves goalposts right? Moves goalposts, re-writes people's memories, makes it so that every single credible architect is a brainwashed stooge, It's
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