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Strict Picnic posted:True. He's also wearing chainmail, which leads me to believe that's intended for a dead Anders fighter class Justice. It would have been great if they physically depicted how twisted he was becoming though. Because it was a fade spirit and not a demon.  I'm pretty sure the writers just hadn't nailed down exactly what the difference between fade spirits and demons was at that time. Or, like, her fade spirit isn't corruptible, or isn't strong enough to overwhelm her or something. Edit: Or what Schubalts said, since I had forgotten those dialogues. She didn't die until ~10 years after DA:O, though. Bored fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 00:08
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There are examples of spirits becoming demons or similar to demons. The only real difference is that spirits embody positive emotions, and demons embody negative ones. There is a spirit/demon in the mage origin that challenges prospective mages to duels to the death, calling itself a spirit of Valor. You can accuse it of only wanting to kill young mages under the pretense of a duel, and that it is becoming more like a demon. Obsessed with honorable combat > obsessed with combat itself. And then there's Justice being corrupted by Anders's anger and becoming a demon of Vengeance.
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Sep 28, 2013 00:22
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:Yeah, this would have been great. It would have made his whole plight more pathetic than anything, which would make him easier to sympathize with. Plus it makes him look a ton like Justice, emphasizing the barriers breaking down between them: I don't know, but it's a bummer, because I would have absolutely loved this. It also would have been great if Merrill got fat on human food  .
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Sep 28, 2013 00:56
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The lore says that the difference between spirits and demons it that demons actively hunger for mortal thoughts. That's why they are constantly trying to get into the physical realm; mortals provide them with their sustenance, and they get a lot more of it by hunting them down in the real world than feeding on what passes over into the Fade. Spirits don't feed on mortals so they don't care about them. I like that they didn't explicitly state that this means spirits are friendly, just that they don't care. Being distilled representations of emotion, they have the potential to be just as nasty as demons when taken to the extreme. That's pretty much what happened to Justice. Pick posted:I don't know, but it's a bummer, because I would have absolutely loved this. Merril dies from food poisoning before Act 2 because she bought rotten meat from some shifty vendor near her house. How could she not buy it when he told him it was good?  It still baffles me that the character dealing with demons on a regular basis is somehow the most naive and helpless.
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Sep 28, 2013 01:06
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Mordiceius posted:It seems like David Gaider would be in a much better position if he was just put in charge of Tumblr actually seems to hate the poo poo of Gaider for coming into fan discussions and talking about how if had actually HAD full control of the game certain things would be different and better and that's how you should really play it anyway, at least from what I've seen. necessary voodoo fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 01:49
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Tumblr hates everything for every reason.
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Sep 28, 2013 03:18
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Well I didn't know that about Wynne so thanks bro.
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Sep 28, 2013 04:25
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Mordiceius posted:I think that's something that really bothers me in storytelling - especially in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age universes. After each game, your party members go on to be like the most important people wherever they end up, whether or not it makes any semblance of sense. More than that I hate that you "need" to read a bunch of lovely tie-in comics and books to know what happened to everyone between games, or get background information of varying importance.
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Sep 28, 2013 05:25
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Ornamented Death posted:More than that I hate that you "need" to read a bunch of lovely tie-in comics and books to know what happened to everyone between games, or get background information of varying importance. As a former WoW player that enjoyed the lore more than the game itself, don't EVEN get me started on this.
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Sep 28, 2013 06:30
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I wish Bioware would make a game based in one of their settings that wasn't about saving the world and instead just about saving your friends and family. People care a lot more about characters they know than a million faceless NPCs mentioned only in text. People always say Bioware's best writing is the party member interactions. A game where there could be a bigger focus on those kind of relationships could be really interesting. Given the irdiculous amount of crime in their games you wouldn't be short on fights either.
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Sep 28, 2013 13:29
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Internet Kraken posted:I wish Bioware would make a game based in one of their settings that wasn't about saving the world and instead just about saving your friends and family. People care a lot more about characters they know than a million faceless NPCs mentioned only in text. People always say Bioware's best writing is the party member interactions. A game where there could be a bigger focus on those kind of relationships could be really interesting. Given the irdiculous amount of crime in their games you wouldn't be short on fights either. So DAII, but if Hawke were actually able to meaningfully impact anyone's fate?
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Sep 28, 2013 14:56
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Internet Kraken posted:I wish Bioware would make a game based in one of their settings that wasn't about saving the world and instead just about saving your friends and family. People care a lot more about characters they know than a million faceless NPCs mentioned only in text. People always say Bioware's best writing is the party member interactions. A game where there could be a bigger focus on those kind of relationships could be really interesting. Given the irdiculous amount of crime in their games you wouldn't be short on fights either.
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Sep 28, 2013 15:17
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Geostomp posted:So DAII, but if Hawke were actually able to meaningfully impact anyone's fate? Man, don't make me re-create my companion tree list .Suffice to say, every companion has a multitude of outcomes (except Varric). People just focus on the fact that you can't determine every event--like, okay, Merrill is going to get Marethari killed if you do her quest (if). But isn't it good that your companions have a degree of autonomy? People wanted that too. Your friends are going to make bad decisions, and occasionally even good decisions. However, assisting Merrill can end up with her own clan killed, or Merrill giving up on her dream with her clan still alive, or not giving up on her dream with either of those things being true. Merrill's perspective and her future are the most important character outcomes you could change. P.S. The comics describe "an outcome", not the "canon" one, they've said this like a million times so stop complaining about it. Who loving cares what's "official canon" anyway? Pick fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 15:54
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Pick posted:Man, don't make me re-create my companion tree list Mordiceius posted:I'm speculating that there is a Venn Diagram showing a major overlap between people who like DA2's story and characters, and people you love posting Supernatural/Doctor Who/Sherlock fan art on Tumblr. Wow it's like the two quotes prove each other oh christ oh poo poo oh gently caress oh Alaois fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 16:08
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How so? I hate Dr. Who, Supernatural, and Sherlock. I make fun of the fans in PYF if that's what you mean.
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Sep 28, 2013 16:19
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Ravenfood posted:Well, they kind of tried that with DA2... There's a reason people say DA 2 is a mountain of wasted potential. Bioware doesn't stick with that anyways though. The whole game builds up to the big mage templar conflict with massive repercusssions and blah blah blah. Bioware seems incapable of keeping the focus of the game small. Geostomp posted:So DAII, but if Hawke were actually able to meaningfully impact anyone's fate? Yes, and characters you actually care about. Your family in DA 2 is pretty lovely aside from your sister, and everyone other than Varric and Aveline is a colossal idiot. VVVV DA 2 has so many problems you could write an entire essay about them. The game did barely anything right and so much wrong. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 16:32
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Internet Kraken posted:There's a reason people say DA 2 is a mountain of wasted potential. Bioware doesn't stick with that anyways though. The whole game builds up to the big mage templar conflict with massive repercusssions and blah blah blah. Bioware seems incapable of keeping the focus of the game small. I do think this was a mistake, but a mistake indicative of a larger mistake, which was their attempt to please everyone. They desperately wanted a certain kind of person to like this game who never would, and I would argue the DLC was largely an attempt to re-capture these people when that was stupid and never going to work. They literally would have had more success with a DLC that only added more gifts/companion conversations, since it would have appealed more to the people still playing DA2 by then.
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Sep 28, 2013 16:37
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Alouicious posted:Wow it's like the two quotes prove each other oh christ oh poo poo oh gently caress oh The kind of person who writes reams of Doctor Who/Supernatural fan fiction would never in a million years say "who the gently caress cares what's official canon?"
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Sep 28, 2013 17:58
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Lymond posted:I liked DA2 better than the original despite its (many) warts. Execution sucked because the game was rushed, but I liked having the game take place in a smaller, cozier world that could have been more detailed and grow according to your choices. From like a page ago, but how is this a point in DA2's favor? "It could have been a very detailed an reactive world...I mean, it wasn't, at all, but I liked the potential that it completely failed to live up to!" It's like me giving good marks for the robust spellmaking system Skyrim didn't actually have.
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Sep 28, 2013 18:45
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Pick posted:How so? I hate Dr. Who, Supernatural, and Sherlock. I make fun of the fans in PYF if that's what you mean. Man I know SA likes to get hate-ons for popular things, but if you unironically enjoy DAII and think Sherlock is bad, you probably have a really bad frontal lobe injury and should see a doctor immediately.
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Sep 28, 2013 18:56
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DrNutt posted:Man I know SA likes to get hate-ons for popular things, but if you unironically enjoy DAII and think Sherlock is bad, you probably have a really bad frontal lobe injury and should see a doctor immediately. Sherlock is a terrible, terrible show.
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Sep 28, 2013 19:11
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EDIT: Whoops, I meant to post this in the RPG thread.
Red Bones fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 19:29
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Pick posted:Sherlock is a terrible, terrible show. DrNutt posted:you unironically enjoy DAII
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Sep 28, 2013 19:30
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I have made neither claim by fiat; look at my post history regarding DA2 and Sherlock and you'll see my reasoning laid out. If you disagree with either, you can argue the point, but proclaiming Sherlock is good just because it's popular ignores that there's an episode where the twist is the word "Sherlock" has "lock" in it  .
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Sep 28, 2013 19:36
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Sorry but Sherlock's pretty bad. It's fun to watch and all, but it's not quarter as smart as it thinks it is. And Pick's laid out pretty well why she likes DAII, I don't agree with her reasoning but she can makes a much more coherent case than most of y'all hating on her.
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Sep 28, 2013 19:37
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Pick posted:I have made neither claim by fiat; look at my post history regarding DA2 and Sherlock and you'll see my reasoning laid out. If you disagree with either, you can argue the point, but proclaiming Sherlock is good just because it's popular ignores that there's an episode where the twist is the word "Sherlock" has "lock" in it Sherlock isn't amazing but it's fun throughout and the sum of its parts actually works as a whole piece of entertainment. DAII is as close to objectively bad as possible, and the only redeeming value are the tiniest nuggets of what might have been a couple good ideas. The combat and lazy c/p'd environments make 60% of the game a boring slog, and the remaining 40% is mostly badly written fan-fiction leagues below the Moffatest of writing. On the other hand I really liked the art style used for the maps and the loading screens, and I was pretty bummed to find out that the DA:I team has been able to do away with loading screens.
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Sep 28, 2013 19:46
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If the loading times in dragon Age were anywhere near as long as the loading times in Mass Effect they'd loving better look good
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Sep 28, 2013 19:54
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The loading screens in DA2 were actually really neat-looking. I know that that's damning the game with the faintest of praise, but still.
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Sep 28, 2013 20:11
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I'm Crap posted:The loading screens in DA2 were actually really neat-looking. I know that that's damning the game with the faintest of praise, but still. Yeah, I meant that genuinely. They do seem to have some really talented art designers. Shame the rest of the game looked like poo poo.
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Sep 28, 2013 20:28
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I've never thought that DA2 was an especially good game--it does have a huge number of flaws, some of which feel like they're more fundamental and others feel like they're more superficial. However, I think I ended up with the burden of defending it because These would be some of my main complaints about DA2 (and to some degree they extend to most Bioware games) which are ignored during most discussions: - You are making important moral decisions that influence how your companions react to you and the degree to which they will support you. This is great! Except, you're never asked for your motivation; motivations are thrust on you. I'd actually find a linear game where your decisions are laid out but your motivations are determined and stated by the player to be more interesting than the converse. For an especially egregious example, look at the genophage in Mass Effect. If you support it, it's because you're a racist. They say a decision has nuance, but then forbid you from acknowledging any nuance once you make your choice. In DAO and DA2, there are times when you feel a character should or should not have supported you based more on why you made the decision than which decision you made. But no one ever asks for your justification; the game gives it to you. - The codex and worldbuilding seems divorced from the world as we actually experience it. (We did start talking about this one in the thread, so kudos to this particular DA thread.) - Nations are apparently designed to ape European nations down to copying their accents among NPCs; this is so, so lazy. However, your friends have accents randomly, if at all. Their customs never really matter except for the Dalish. - We should have seen multiple seasons; it would have made Kirkwall feel totally different if we just had some goddamn fallen leaves or some poo poo during one of the Acts. Heck, make it Act 2 so we forget about Act 1 Kirkwall by Act 3. Or just add weathering effects to some of the textures. Maybe overlay a frost one sometime? - No companion ever refuses a mission. Aveline will get mad at you for dragging her into criminal business (good), but really there should be times when you can't use certain characters. (Oh, I guess Isabela won't enter the Qunari compound, which is sort of what I'm talking about.) - There should be more poo poo Varric clearly invented. There are some hints, but not enough to take full advantage of the notion. Maybe you should also have an option to re-play certain portions by Varric going, "Oh wait, was that right?..." and "repeating" himself if you decide you didn't like how things turned out. (By the way, two examples of little lies are Varric exaggerating Bethany's boobs in the intro and the guy Varric shoots in the opening showing up later with just a black eye instead.) If nothing else, Varric definitely should say something for a "game over", because come the gently caress on! Of course he should! - Some companion dialogue makes no sense because it doesn't correspond with the banter. Justice is under-developed and would be totally confusing to anyone who didn't play Awakenings. Here is stuff that's discussed a lot I agree with: - Combat gets annoying. (However, I'd argue it's no more annoying than DAO's.) - On re-used maps, the mini-map should only show the accessible areas. Distinct areas that matter for certain quests should not show up multiple times (elven graveyards.) - Sebastian and Isabela were broken in the original release; removing them from your party could cause lasting bugs. - More bosses which should have required more strategy. (I liked the rock wraith.) - Generally, combat is samey and not very well implemented. Blood magic was broken again, and it had few if any effects on dialogues where it should have mattered tremendously. - The companions' appearance should have changed over time. - Act 3 is way too short, and the Qunari were a more interesting problem and should have represented the climax. Also, you shouldn't be able to spam your dog during the Arishok boss battle. - Orsino shouldn't fight you for no loving reason if you're playing mage-side. If he really has to die prior to the final battle for the story to work, have him killed by Meredith in a cutscene. - "Tranquil solution", really?  Things I think people complain about for no reason: - Rare glitches that most people never experienced - Elf sexuality (who gives a gently caress) - Playing armor dressup (has everyone forgotten about DAO where often your tanks looked the same and it was super annoying?) - Not having enough influence on character outcomes (I think you have tons) - Low-res textures that a normal player would never see up-close anyway Stuff I actively disagree with: - I love the theme and plot, where you always fail and are ultimately always a cock-up. This is hilarious when played as a really nice person, because it's road to Hell stuff through and through. It is anti-power-fantasy. You are Batman and you are terrible. - I love that you are an idiot rear end in a top hat who gets credit for solving problems you and your friends personally introduced. Also the Raimi shot of Hawke seeing his or her zombie mom is fantastic. - Loot doesn't level (realistic and totally hilarious) - Voice casting and acting were very well done (especially with some of the worse lines) - Combat is more fun than DAO's. The flashy effects made me feel more powerful. Crowd control actually became important. They removed some of the terrible spells and crap from DAO, such as the horrible "Shapeshifter" spec. Also, you could respec. - I had tremendous fun with the characters, even the ones I hate, because they leave an impression. I don't remember any particular character traits from the cast of FF6 or Morrowind, but by god, I will never not be mad at Anders. Killing the Terminator in Mass Effect 2, meanwhile, meant basically nothing to me. Also, most of your friends are "unfixable". Fenris will always be a douche about mages, even if you are friend/rival enough to keep him on board. - Combat combos encouraged cooperation. In DAO, tanks basically existed to keep enemies away from mages. I felt the waves kept the spirit of combat more alive than in DAO, where if you backed your mage into the right corner with a tank, basically you could win any battle. - I liked the revision of the Darkspawn with the bloody, blackish mouths and pale skin/eyes. I also liked the new Flemeth design; I thought it was cool. The ogres are my favorite, though, I think they look awesome. The qunari revision was also a huge improvement, because the Arishok looked fantastic. - I liked the "one sibling dies at the beginning" feature because you aren't punished for the class you choose at the beginning. For example, mages often get chewed up and spit out when they start and benefit at the end. The combos kept any class from being too important, and at the beginning you have the complement to balance things out. Also, it's way cool that your family actually looks a bit like you now--no more of the human noble origin problems from DAO. - You can't actually save the world. In fact, you and your pals are the worst threat Kirkwall ever faced. Pick fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 20:29
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Wolfsheim posted:From like a page ago, but how is this a point in DA2's favor? "It could have been a very detailed an reactive world...I mean, it wasn't, at all, but I liked the potential that it completely failed to live up to!" The whole "DA2 was innovative" thing they tried to sell was utter nonsense, but I'd give the DA2 team some points for attempting something new for Bioware and I honestly hope they attempt something similar to DA2 again because it has some concepts that could have been neat. Internet Kraken posted:It still baffles me that the character dealing with demons on a regular basis is somehow the most naive and helpless. I mean making deals with demons is supposed to be dangerous and only an idiot would even concider it. DA2 is pretty unapologetic about Merril: she is stupid. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 28, 2013 |
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Sep 28, 2013 21:07
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Raygereio posted:Merril was exasperating, but I actually kinda liked that aspect of her characterisation.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:09
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Pick posted:I'd actually find a linear game where your decisions are laid out but your motivations are determined and stated by the player to be more interesting than the converse. The first Witcher managed this really, really well AND had oodles of outcomes and choice points. You basically design Geralt's motivation and perspective through the choices that you make. Your actions teach Geralt who he is and what is important to him. It was a rich and rewarding experience, stupid sex cards be damned.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:10
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Ravenfood posted:But she's not a cunning idiot. She's just so much of an idiot that its hard to believe that she hasn't been brutally murdered or turned into a meatpuppet yet. Varric pays for protection, it's in one of the dialogues.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:15
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Raygereio posted:Merril was exasperating, but I actually kinda liked that aspect of her characterisation. Merril could of been an interesting character if she didn't come off as being dangerously incompetent in every single way. Her interactions with with the player and the party members suggests she is incapable of looking after herself. Given how dangerous dealing with demons is, she should be a lot more independent. Obviously nobody is helping her deal in blood magic so what has kept her from being tricked by a demon the second she started messing around with it? She could of been turned into an abomination by a demon saying it was going to be really really really nice if she just let it out of the fade for a bit. A character that had spent so much time dealing with otherworldly spirits that her social skills degraded could be interesting. Someone that knew how to deal with demons and bend them to her will, but had spent her entire life living with a clan in the forest that shunned her so she had no clue how to function properly in a city. I guess that would be like Morrigan though, only a blood mage and also not pissed off at everything all the time. Merril isn't just incompetent socially though, she can't do anything on her own without loving it up. That makes no sense considering how dangerous demons are. Also Merril's character is kind of creepy when you remember that some of the DA II writers consider her shortcomings to be adorably quirky rather than depressing. Pick posted:Varric pays for protection, it's in one of the dialogues. You can't pay to protect someone from getting their brain eaten by a demon.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:23
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Really hope they eschew the Paragon/Renegade/Har-Har-Jokester dialog wheel they aped from Mass Effect, especially because there wasn't (and shouldn't be) an alignment meter for your character, considering how pragmatist Wardens' actions are in the universe (conscripting and extricating characters repeatedly out of ethically/lawfully clear cut predicaments) and how arbitrary a lot of Hawke's choices are.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:25
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Raygereio posted:Merril was exasperating, but I actually kinda liked that aspect of her characterisation. She's supposed to be the 'naïve, virginal girl next door' more than she's supposed to be just plain stupid.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:28
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Pick posted:Varric pays for protection, it's in one of the dialogues.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:33
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I never saw her as "virginal girl next door" so much as "may have an autism spectrum disorder." We never see her negotiate with demons except during one quest with the elven boy, where she betrays the party and it freaks her out how easily she turned. She was trained by a master mage for a long time. She can harness huge magical effects and knows a great deal of history and at least two languages. She's not retarded, but she is completely out of her depth and achingly ignorant of human culture and people in general. And she's convinced herself that she can work with the demons and understands them; and since one of her special abilities is blood magic and she doesn't suddenly respec out of it, she presumably keeps practicing the black art even after she learns how bad she is at it.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:42
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Internet Kraken posted:Also Merril's character is kind of creepy when you remember that some of the DA II writers consider her shortcomings to be adorably quirky rather than depressing. I just liked that DA2 didn't make a serious attempt to present a character who does something as stupid as making deals with demons, as misguided or tragic, but instead ends up being upfront (probably unintentional) about that character being stupid.
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Sep 28, 2013 21:46
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