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ReV VAdAUL posted:So could you please cite a source that shows that the money was kept intact as a Volkswagen fund and that the Soviets looted said fund? Here for instance: http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-44448514.html quote:Rund 280 Millionen Einlagegelder befanden sich im Besitz der Deutschen Arbeitsfront und waren bei der Bank der Deutschen Arbeit in Berlin deponiert, als das Vermögen der DAF nach dem Zusammenbruch von den Alliierten beschlagnahmt wurde
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Sep 29, 2013 18:16
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yes, and then he and other party members stood around giving speeches all night while word got out to the police and local garrison, who had mobilized and blocked off roads by the time the Nazis finally got around to deciding on doing anything. It was an utter clownshow. In what was probably history's greatest missed chance the nazi standing next to Hitler, when they finally marched out hours later, took a bullet that instantly killed him. The nazis were marching with locked arms and his sudden death dislocated hitler's arm.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:29
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ReV VAdAUL posted:
I think when we look at some of the ineptitude shown by some of the current ultra right wing movements in Europe, your point is very sobering. I guess it is dangerous to dismiss these organisations as irrelevant idiots.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:31
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Fideles posted:I think when we look at some of the ineptitude shown by some of the current ultra right wing movements in Europe, your point is very sobering. I guess it is dangerous to dismiss these organisations as irrelevant idiots. I'd say that's an important lesson yes. They are hilariously inept and would be much scarier if they wouldn't be (but then they probably wouldn't really be fascists) but if all the stars align they'll murder millions.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:46
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Itious posted:Here for instance: Yeah, essentially the Nazis miscalculated that they could conquer all their nearby enemies within a few years and then have those cars for all the good little Aryans who'd saved for them. Additionally, parts of it had been scheduled based on Hitler's earlier plans to start conquering the world in the early 40s, but he jumped his own gun by the events of 1939. Shouldn't be forgotten that part of the plans for cars was to have much of the production of the components for it be based on slave labor by undesirables and using resources in lands they'd seized.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:49
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Orange Devil posted:but if all the stars align they'll murder millions. And every time a left-socialist group gets into power they pull a Great Leap Forward, right? Or maybe a Holodomor? History is not cyclical. You can't predict the future by looking in the past. Okay thanks.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:51
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Emden posted:And every time a left-socialist group gets into power they pull a Great Leap Forward, right? Or maybe a Holodomor? History is not cyclical. You can't predict the future by looking in the past. Okay thanks. Ok imagine you get your biggest wish politically, what would society look like if you could reshape it to your vision?
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Sep 29, 2013 19:01
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Yeah, no, I'm not gonna honestly believe that an ideology based on chauvinistic racism is not gonna produce mass slaughter should hell freeze over and the stars align again. Never loving again.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:21
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Pesmerga posted:The way I see it, this can go a few different ways: - I've heard other people who say they're in Greece really emphasize point 1. Overall what's very interesting to me, as an American, is to see people's reactions to Golden Dawn. The typical American urban liberal professionals are just hoping that the Greek government will crack down. But when you ask them, so what happens if the Greek government is all just doing this to look good, but continues to allow killings? What should the response be then? The total [learned] helplessness that characterizes the liberal response shows their fundamental weakness. It's why I simply cannot take those people seriously, they're loving weak.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:33
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weavernaut posted:I learned about it as the Beerhall Putsch. High school history was a long time ago, but didn't Hitler literally stand up on a table in a loving tavern and announce he was taking over Bavaria? Basically he took some ministers hostage at a rally and asked them to join his government. When they wouldn't, he got bored and went and gave a speech. Hitler came back, they said they'd join him. Hitler said great and put them in charge of the rally while he went to another hall. The ministers quietly let themselves out of the beer hall and alerted the government.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:37
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Orange Devil posted:Ok imagine you get your biggest wish politically, what would society look like if you could reshape it to your vision?  LngBolt posted:I've heard other people who say they're in Greece really emphasize point 1. quote:By NEKTARIA STAMOULI And ALKMAN GRANITSAS BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 21:58
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Luigi Thirty posted:Basically he took some ministers hostage at a rally and asked them to join his government. When they wouldn't, he got bored and went and gave a speech. Hitler came back, they said they'd join him. Hitler said great and put them in charge of the rally while he went to another hall. The ministers quietly let themselves out of the beer hall and alerted the government. For all the ineptitude 19 men died in what was explicitly an act of treason, Hitler being sentence to 9 months in prison for that was sine qua non of how hosed Weimar "democracy" was.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:59
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The Weimar thought it had bigger problems than Hitler. 
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Sep 29, 2013 22:06
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weavernaut posted:The Weimar thought it had bigger problems than Hitler. I got 19 problems, but Hitler ain't one of th  
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Sep 29, 2013 22:09
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weavernaut posted:The Weimar thought it had bigger problems than Hitler. In fairness, in 1923 it sorta did. Germany was in the depths of the hyperinflation crisis and Hitler et all looked to just be the latest pack of Putschists goobers to come along and flame out. That's not to excuse in any way the failure to hold him, and the others, to proper account, but I don't think we can blame the Weimar coalition too much for failing to predict the future of the then-barely significant NSDAP. Plenty of other things we can blame them for during that period, anyway, and certainly more later on.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:11
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In fairness, in 1923 it sorta did. Germany was in the depths of the hyperinflation crisis and Hitler et all looked to just be the latest pack of Putschists goobers to come along and flame out. That's not to excuse in any way the failure to hold him, and the others, to proper account, but I don't think we can blame the Weimar coalition too much for failing to predict the future of the then-barely significant NSDAP. It's not like they were running out of prisons or something (or a bullet for an execution). It shouldn't be that difficult to predict what's going to happen when right wing violence is condoned by the state even in it's most extreme manifestations. Maybe you couldn't predict which rear end in a top hat was going to come out on top but there was a 100% guarantee of more violence. It really doesn't matter what sops your electoral system makes to the liberals if your judicial system is openly rooting for the authoritarians to come back and murder everyone else.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:19
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Yeah, but early 1920s NSDAP didn't look like a threat in the least, when you have the whole world breathing down your neck to repay a debt for a war you didn't start and sure as hell didn't finish. I still think a portion of the blame for the rise of Nazism lies with the Allies for driving Germany into such a condition, just like Germany et al are to blame for the conditions in Greece right now, which certainly contribute to the rise of GD.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:25
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DynamicSloth posted:It's not like they were running out of prisons or something (or a bullet for an execution). It shouldn't be that difficult to predict what's going to happen when right wing violence is condoned by the state even in it's most extreme manifestations. Maybe you couldn't predict which rear end in a top hat was going to come out on top but there was a 100% guarantee of more violence. Well yeah, which is why I said it was no excuse not to try and imprison Hitler properly rather than giving him a nine-month vacation at Landsberg. What I was trying to draw attention to was, at the time, the entire state was tottering on the edge of collapse due to the hyperinflation crisis and in that context it's understandable (though not excusable) that the national government sorta had its attention elsewhere.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:28
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It wasn't just the Weimar government. Almost no one saw the threat for what it was. People didn't have historical hindsight at how new and dangerous the fascist movement really was. I think we might tend to get too into this Weimar tunnel vision. Note that the United States didn't crack down on Coughlin, L.K. Smith, et al. with force until after Pearl Harbor. What made the U.S. different from Germany?
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Sep 29, 2013 22:34
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weavernaut posted:Yeah, but early 1920s NSDAP didn't look like a threat in the least, The burden of Versailles has been exaggerated a great deal the real problem is that the Allies didn't go far enough and roll into Berlin to show the German people they had lost militarily and de-Kaiserficate the civilian government in particular chucklefucks like Georg Neithardt. Captain_Maclaine posted:Well yeah, which is why I said it was no excuse not to try and imprison Hitler properly rather than giving him a nine-month vacation at Landsberg. What I was trying to draw attention to was, at the time, the entire state was tottering on the edge of collapse due to the hyperinflation crisis and in that context it's understandable (though not excusable) that the national government sorta had its attention elsewhere. This problem pre-dated the inflation crisis though, the beer hall putsch wasn't even the first time Hitler had been given a light sentence by the same judge. The open endorsement of right wing violence by the judiciary was an endemic problem not a one time failure.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:49
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I think there is something to be said that the far-right does very well in countries in which either through economic or military circumstance have not only been catastrophically effected but have felt they have been "cheated," which is a hard emotional state to describe. In many ways, having living off and on in Russia, I could see it happening right in front of me. Walk into a random bar, and all of the sudden everyone is shouting white power on a friday night, the booze helps obviously but it isn't very deep under the surface. I think in both Germany's case after ww1 (not ww2) and in the case of present-day Russia there was a clear real and emotional analogies to be made. Many Russians felt that the break up of the USSR was a real loss of not only prestige but territory, and the economic circumstances and high inflation of the 1990s can be easily compared to that of the the early 1920s/1930s for the Weimar Republic. In both cases, I think you could say the population felt the circumstances were no real fault of their nation or them as a people as a whole and that there were "abused" by foreign powers in a difficult circumstance. In the case of the Weimar Republic, this anger eventually tore the Republic to shreds, in the case of Russia, it is very much bottled by a authoritarian police state. However, I don't think that anger has ever left Russia if anything it slowly grows over time, and Putin is desperate to control it (the anti-gay laws a very much a part of this, they are a easy scapegoat). That isn't to handwave away fascism and those devoted to it obviously, but I think there is a distinct formula to what spurs the far-right. Greece is in at least some ways in a similar straights. It remains to be seen how far the Greek government is willing to go though, and even if they destroy the GD, it may only arise again in a different form. Obviously, anything thats undermines Nazis is a step in the right direction, even if it is temporary, but I think it really goes back to the hopeless state of Greece's economy and that there is no real plan to fix it. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 23:03
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In Greece, isn't basically the case that they were screwed by Germany and left high and dry when the consequences came home? In Russian, if course, the state was basically sold to cronies and criminals. There have to be left-friendly populist positions here. No need to make the message "screw capitalism," when "screw these bastards" works just as well.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:16
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Hodgepodge posted:In Greece, isn't basically the case that they were screwed by Germany and left high and dry when the consequences came home? Populism more often than not usually has a hodgepodge of targets everything from bankers to immigration to gay people, according to most of the far-right all of them are "ruining" their country. The sad thing of course is that if anything views on race have taken a massive step backwards from the Soviet Union, almost all of the immigrants to Russia are from former Soviet republics in the first place and during the Soviet period most Russian cities were cosmopolitan. There are left-friendly positions to be had, but there are a lot of structural factors that can give the far-right an advantage, especially if leftist parties start cooperating with the neo liberal right o (such as Syriza has more or less promised to do) or in the case of Russia, the government, the Russian Communist Party being a populist front organization that is more or less dominated by the Kremlin.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:26
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Also, I'd wager there's a significant amount of people who are no fans of anything even vaguely left-wing or populist, after the USSR. Though I imagine there are very few fans of capitalism left, too. I'm gonna stop now, because this topic feels me with incoherent rage.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:30
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weavernaut posted:Also, I'd wager there's a significant amount of people who are no fans of anything even vaguely left-wing or populist, after the USSR. Well those that plundered the country are obviously still fans, and as far as left-wing/populists most Russians vaguely steer in that direction, even if there isn't the same ideology behind it than the old days. The actual Marxists are usually old people/pensioners, while most people just wanted their lives not to be so difficult (which includes higher wages and a lower cost of living).
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Sep 29, 2013 23:41
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In fairness, in 1923 it sorta did. Germany was in the depths of the hyperinflation crisis and Hitler et all looked to just be the latest pack of Putschists goobers to come along and flame out. That's not to excuse in any way the failure to hold him, and the others, to proper account, but I don't think we can blame the Weimar coalition too much for failing to predict the future of the then-barely significant NSDAP. Some of the Nazis and SA involved got longer prison sentences then Hitler himself. If I remember right one or two of them even stayed in prison long enough to be freed when the Nazis finally took over in 30s. That aside, part of the cost saving measures in that era involved shorter prison sentences on cost saving grounds, and of course the still heavily conservative judicial system, largely inherited from the Kaiser's men from before the war, were far more willing to give conservative appearing folks that benefit of the doubt in sentencing. Incidentally, during this period in Germany the court system often used a "lay judge" system, where a combination of a few professional judges and a few ordinary citizens would jointly decide the judgement. And the kind of people most frequently selected as lay judges in that area at that time tended to be quite fond of the Nazis in particular. Nazi Party headquarters at the time were raided though, and the party's official newspaper was also banned. Several years later the party would be reformed and the paper brought back too, but that was again pretty much par for the course for how such movements tended to get treated back then. DynamicSloth posted:19 men died, they were plainly a threat to civil order, they were not yet an existential threat to the Republic itself but the state of the judiciary made that an inevitability. 20 men: 16 Nazis and 4 policemen. Conveniently enough most of the Nazis who had directly killed policemen ended up being killed by other cops in the midst of the fighting and most of the rest were thus able to escape murder charges. The country as a whole at the time had all but legalized the existence of numerous and violent paramilitary groups that could basically roam the streets with impunity, on all political sides. The Communist party's fighters and the party itself was allowed to openly operate after all, and they had actually succeeded in taking over several areas for some amount of time, after all! If you don't get yourself banned for successfully managing that, I don't see how you could expect the Nazis to get banned for what amounted to a drunken riot.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:54
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weavernaut posted:Yeah, but early 1920s NSDAP didn't look like a threat in the least, when you have the whole world breathing down your neck to repay a debt for a war you didn't start and sure as hell didn't finish. I actually think too much blame is often placed on the Allies/WWI reparations for the rise of Nazism. The reparations demanded, though large (50 billion gold marks equivalent to around 5 billion USD), were actually smaller than is often stated and was reported in the media at the time (132 billion, probably to convince the populace that the Germans were duly punished). What's more is that Germany only ended up paying 20 billion gold marks in the end. The terms and reparations imposed upon France following the Franco-Prussian war were far harsher. Another interesting thing to note is the role of America. Post-WWI the US and especially a number of powerful banks and financial houses invested quite heavily in the German economy. It was in America's interest to ensure a stable German economy which for instance led to Germany being able to loan alot of American money, at favorable terms. These American loans constituted a large part of the money paid to Britain and France as reparations. Funnily enough Britain and France used much of the money they received in reparations to repay loans to the US. Then there’s blame for the war. Blaming Germany for the war was important in order to justify reparations, though for France revenge for 1870 also played a large role. While it is true that it is fallacious to put the blame squarely on Germany for the outbreak of the war, reading about the war it does not seem that unreasonable to put much of the blame on Germany for the way the war developed into the Great War. It was their unconditional support of any and all Austro-Hungarian actions against Serbia that emboldened Austria-Hungary to dare go up against Russia (by attacking Serbia), this unconditional support was provided without inquiring or investigating what the Austro-Hungarians planned to do, and most people in the German government were confident that they would not do what they ended up doing. Then there was the whole strategy of Weltkrieg, Jihad, submarine warfare, funding and arming revolutinary and nationalist groups, guerilla war in Central Africa, trying to get Mexico to invade America, funding saboteurs/terrorists who bombed American factories (while America was still neutral), and so on. Throughout the war the German people were fed propaganda that portrayed the German army as being undefeated in battle. For instance most German civilians remained ignorant of the German defeat in the Battle of the Marne, which effectively halted the German advance into France and established the frontlines in the West for the remainder of the war pretty much. This propaganda outlived the war, which ended with German troops still in France and no Allied troops on German soil. Though at the time of the armistice the German troops were close to their breaking point, their morale plummeting and chronic food shortages and almost complete lack of reliable supplies making them almost incapable of any further defensive actions, much less offensive ones. Never the less the myth of the undefeated German army was kept alive. Rather than being defeated in battle, Germany had been stabbed in the back, by Socialists and Jews. The fact that the army remained intact also allowed it to band together with various nationalist and other right-wing groups to crush a socialist revolution. One of the prime proponents of this “stabbed in the back” narrative was Erich Ludendorff, the man who had effectively controlled Germany throughout the war. Rather than admit to being defeated, he shifted the blame for signing the armistice on to the Jews and Socialists in parliament and the same Jews and Socialists for poisoning public opinion against victory (Germany was hard hit by multiple famines as a result of the British naval blockade and wartime policies had completely disrupted Germany’s economy, for instance by dismantling city pipelines to repurpose the copper in the pipes for ammunition, if I recall correctly). Later he went on to become a supporter of Adolf Hitler, and actually participated in the Beer Hall Putsch. He later distanced himself from Hitler, though became increasingly convinced of a number of conspiracy theories about Jews, Freemasons and Jesuits and argued that the military would be best suited to rule Germany. Of course economic issues were probably the most important part in the whole rise of Nazism, these shouldn’t be attributed so heavily or even mostly to the reparations. More important were things such as the Depression, especially as Weimar governments increasingly looked to bind Germany closer to the United States to improve their diplomatic and economic position in relation to France and Britain (they thought that Germany could no longer achieve her ambitions through military power after WWI), and other factors such as the British abandonment of the gold standard and the austerity policies of the German government. Also following the German revolution of 1918-1919 clashes between leftists and right-wingers (a lot of whom were disgruntled former officers), supported by the police and the army, had become common place. Extremist groups like the Nazis were pretty common as the treason that was the armistice and the following revolution to them suggested that Germany faced an existential threat from Socialism, Jews, Freemasons and the like. On top of this you had the government which seemed content to have Germany become a somewhat affluent satellite of America and also would disregard the military as the defining institution of the country to be replaced with banks, finance and foreign capital. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 00:01
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YF-23 posted:You're hoping that Golden Dawn can claim martyrdom? Let them claim it, martyrdom is overrated. Courage and anger are no match for bullets and tanks. Once enough of them are in graves the rest will scatter. If the Greek government is smart it'll raid a few offices to grab member lists for subsequent rounding up.
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Sep 30, 2013 00:27
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Install Windows posted:The country as a whole at the time had all but legalized the existence of numerous and violent paramilitary groups that could basically roam the streets with impunity, on all political sides. The Communist party's fighters and the party itself was allowed to openly operate after all, and they had actually succeeded in taking over several areas for some amount of time, after all! If you don't get yourself banned for successfully managing that, I don't see how you could expect the Nazis to get banned for what amounted to a drunken riot. Actually the communists had their leadership murdered by government-aligned fascist thugs.
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Sep 30, 2013 03:27
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yes, and then he and other party members stood around giving speeches all night while word got out to the police and local garrison, who had mobilized and blocked off roads by the time the Nazis finally got around to deciding on doing anything. It was an utter clownshow. That sounds... like a normal night out though?
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Sep 30, 2013 04:46
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Enjoy posted:Actually the communists had their leadership murdered by government-aligned fascist thugs. And the various right wing thugs frequently had their leaders murdered by their own opposition, your point please?
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Sep 30, 2013 05:32
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Austria had a general election the other day and the far right "Freedom party" secured 21.4% of the vote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24321045 this makes them the third largest party in the legislature and due to a grand coalition seemingly the official opposition. They're not third by much either with the two bigger parties getting 27% and 23% respectively. You'd have thought a far right party doing so well in Hitler's birthplace (and willing part of the Third Reich) would get more attention but as the old joke goes Austrians convinced the world Hitler was German and Mozart was Austrian.
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Sep 30, 2013 11:25
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LngBolt posted:I've heard other people who say they're in Greece really emphasize point 1. I think there's a good chance the crackdown is honest, if not harsh. Fool yourself not though, the government is doing this in order to look good. They are simultaneously putting on an anti-fascist face, and at the same time I think they're trying to "fish" Golden Dawn voters who voted on a basis of racism (since on one hand the government didn't lift a finger while GD was targeting immigrants and on the other the government's treatment of immigrants itself is something to write home about for all the wrong reasons). Vernii posted:Let them claim it, martyrdom is overrated. Courage and anger are no match for bullets and tanks. Once enough of them are in graves the rest will scatter. Yeah, no, you can't convict the guilty by making them look innocent.
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Sep 30, 2013 11:34
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Austria had a general election the other day and the far right "Freedom party" secured 21.4% of the vote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24321045 this makes them the third largest party in the legislature and due to a grand coalition seemingly the official opposition. They're not third by much either with the two bigger parties getting 27% and 23% respectively. Well. Never going back to Austria, either, looks like!
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Sep 30, 2013 17:24
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weavernaut posted:Well. Never going back to Austria, either, looks like! In all frankness, Austria really got off easy at the end of the war, particularly with the unasked-for and undeserved favor of being treated as Hitler's first victim, rather than as his first collaborator. Austrians in the 30s were by and large thrilled with the Anschluss (they'd have done it in 1918 if Versailles hadn't forbidden it) and Nazification.
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Sep 30, 2013 18:05
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Install Windows posted:And the various right wing thugs frequently had their leaders murdered by their own opposition, your point please? That they were could not "roam the streets with impunity" and were not "allowed to openly operate". They were murdered.
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Sep 30, 2013 20:30
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In all frankness, Austria really got off easy at the end of the war, particularly with the unasked-for and undeserved favor of being treated as Hitler's first victim, rather than as his first collaborator. Austrians in the 30s were by and large thrilled with the Anschluss (they'd have done it in 1918 if Versailles hadn't forbidden it) and Nazification.
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Sep 30, 2013 20:31
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 20:39
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:Worse, the Christian center-right ÖVP says it is keeping the option open to form a government with the "Freedom Party" and the Euroskeptic flat-tax "reform" party of billionaire Frank Stronach. It may be a bluff but its something to worry about because the FPÖ is shall we say, highly unpleasant. What's that first one supposed to be? Immigrants getting into Austria through Greece and living the high life on government handouts?
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Sep 30, 2013 21:01
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This owns. As it turns out people don't want to live with others who aren't like them nor do they want cheap labor entering their country. WHO KNEW???? (not the left)
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Sep 30, 2013 21:03
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