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Revenant Threshold posted:I'm like 99% certain there's a dialogue line after Marethari fucks up where Merrill says that she didn't ask her to look out for her. In a way that suggests she isn't interested at all in people attempting to cover for her. Definitely something they should have cleared up in the writing one way or another, then, since if she acknowledges it's dangerous, then having a backup is the logical thing to do. Either way, Merrill--like Anders or Isabela--is clearly a villain from another group's justified point of view, which is different and more interesting than another Liara. e: That dialogue to me sounds like Merrill objects to Marethari substituting herself for the demon, not Marethari standing by to kill her if things go wrong. If Marethari was on standby ostensibly she wouldn't suffer any consequences besides a potential sense of guilt. Pick fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 22:42
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^^ No consequence besides, well, fighting a horrible abomination which takes an entire party to defeat. "It was my risk to take!" isn't the words of a person who considers an abomination a risk to people other than the.. abominated? Abominable? Them themselves, anyway. It's not a problem with the writing. Well, it is, just not that one. It's only an issue with the writing if we're assuming that Merrill is a responsible, reasonable person who takes precautions, in which case it's entirely contradictory. If we assume Merrill is an irresponsible person who doesn't think ahead, or one who has too much confidence in her own abilities/knowlege, it's entirely consistent with the writing. I can get behind taking a different interpretation of something, but when that interpretation is contradicted by in-game writing, saying that therefore it's a problem with the writing seems to be asking a bit much. There's death of the author and then there's death of the work. \/ One of the other issues with DAII is that, outside of their own stories, the other companions pretty much just become mouthpieces for the plot. Probably DAO would have had that problem too if they'd done companion quests in that way too, though, to be fair. Revenant Threshold fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 22:47
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Revenant Threshold posted:I'm like 99% certain there's a dialogue line after Marethari fucks up where Merrill says that she didn't ask her to look out for her. In a way that suggests she isn't interested at all in people attempting to cover for her. .....loving Anders says this? I hate him so much, god drat.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:49
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Internet Kraken posted:.....loving Anders says this? Anders is actually pretty reasonable and with understandable opinions. When the chantry isn't involved.
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Sep 29, 2013 22:53
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Internet Kraken posted:.....loving Anders says this? This is the same guy who approves of returning Fenris to Danarius because of his political opinions. Also one of his gifts is the Tevinter Chantry amulet  .
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Sep 29, 2013 22:58
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Now I can only assume the real plot of DAII is that Hawke is this enabling moron who unwillingly gathers the most dangerous sort people that can cause the greatest amount of harm to Kirkwall. It doesn't save the game from still having no true motivation or plot aside from being another "dark and sexy not JRPG", but I'm sure this coping mechanism will hold until I once again forget this game ever existed.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:04
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Pick posted:This is why the real slider we need is a motivation one. Again, it's like the genophage in Mass Effect. They try to make the decision seem difficult and complex, but the you support it, of course it's because you're a smug evil racist. I agree about the slider complaints. The options are too binary in Bioware games. Either you support one option and have the game tell you what a good boy you are or support the other and be called a puppy-kicking monster despite having actual motivation behind each. It really devalues complex issues to not include some sort of motivation meter instead of karma or even Friendship/Rivalry. Especially when you have a conflict as contrived as the Mage vs. Templar argument which assumes that disagreeing with the status quo means you're all for releasing all mages without oversight forever. I did Friendship path everybody first go, but then I realized that I really didn't want to keep supporting everyone. Especially Fenris because, tragic past or no, he's still an angsty dick. So my mage Hawke developed a relationship as adversaries with a begrudging respect underneath that fit much better. Besides, it meant I didn't have to pretend to take the angst of an annoying fangirl bait character seriously and insulted him without being a slavery loving villain. Internet Kraken posted:.....loving Anders says this? I agree that this was a pretty big douchebag move (much like Fenris' speech on the same subject), it does show that he honestly wants her to learn something and grow as a person for the tragedy. He (and Fenris) are still pretty big assholes, so don't expect anything resembling tact. With Anders, don't expect any acknowledgement of hypocrisy, either. It's not as bad as Fenris and Anders using Hawke's mother's death for another of their "debates". Now that was just a complete lack of even the most basic human decency. Hawke should have broken both their jaws for dragging that up for their petty sniping. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 23:09
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Revenant Threshold posted:I'm like 99% certain there's a dialogue line after Marethari fucks up where Merrill says that she didn't ask her to look out for her. In a way that suggests she isn't interested at all in people attempting to cover for her. Internet Kraken posted:.....loving Anders says this? I had brought Fenris along to the end of Merril's quest as well as Anders. Merril got quite the brutal talking to from those two, it was hilarious.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:13
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quote:I had brought Fenris along to the end of Merril's quest as well as Anders. Merril got quite the brutal talking to from those two, it was hilarious. I am so doing this. Thanks for the tip.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:15
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Doublehex posted:I am so doing this. Thanks for the tip. Bring Anders to Fenris' too, his douchery is the stuff of legend. I love the triangle between those three--Anders, Merrill, and Fenris. They all have issues with one another but there's always a point where they'll team up to hate on one of the others. Also, they get some of the best dialogue. This happens if Merrill's clan dies: quote:Anders: You must join us. Do you see that now? You must stand with Kirkwall's mages. Pick fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 23:21
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I sort of get Anders hatred of Fenris actually, seeing as fenris makes a point of saying that not only should mages be locked up, but people should just kill them. Selling Fenris back into slavery is hilariously dickish but he ain't shy to make it clear that he thinks mages should be slaves.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:27
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KittyEmpress posted:I sort of get Anders hatred of Fenris actually, seeing as fenris makes a point of saying that not only should mages be locked up, but people should just kill them. Selling Fenris back into slavery is hilariously dickish but he ain't shy to make it clear that he thinks mages should be slaves. Not really, he says mages that can't control themselves should be locked up--he specifically includes people who are "not weak", such as Bethany and Hawke. He supports status quo, and yeah, status quo doesn't seem great, but there realistically isn't a better option.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:32
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KittyEmpress posted:I sort of get Anders hatred of Fenris actually, seeing as fenris makes a point of saying that not only should mages be locked up, but people should just kill them. Selling Fenris back into slavery is hilariously dickish but he ain't shy to make it clear that he thinks mages should be slaves. On the flip side I don't understand why Anders is so hype about selling Fenris back into slavery when essentially the Mage's situation is state-sponsored slavery. Although I'm sure Anders with his intellect and attention to detail would notice this fallacy and wouldn't condemn another person to actual slavery. Surely he'll understand his situation and act accordingly whe- oh wait. No. He's just going to be a petty rear end in a top hat. Truly he is the kind revolutionary leader he thought he was.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:35
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FauxGateau posted:On the flip side I don't understand why Anders is so hype about selling Fenris back into slavery when essentially the Mage's situation is state-sponsored slavery. Although I'm sure Anders with his intellect and attention to detail would notice this fallacy and wouldn't condemn another person to actual slavery. Surely he'll understand his situation and act accordingly whe- oh wait. No. He's just going to be a petty rear end in a top hat. I'll give the writer's enough credit to say this is intentional, the same with Fenris hating slavery but also wishing he could kill all mages. They're both hypocritical assholes basically. What likable characters.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:40
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FauxGateau posted:On the flip side I don't understand why Anders is so hype about selling Fenris back into slavery when essentially the Mage's situation is state-sponsored slavery. Although I'm sure Anders with his intellect and attention to detail would notice this fallacy and wouldn't condemn another person to actual slavery. Surely he'll understand his situation and act accordingly whe- oh wait. No. He's just going to be a petty rear end in a top hat. At the end Anders doesn't want the peaceful dissolution of the Circle of Magi and their Templar keepers, he wants revenge for the decades of abuse mages have suffered due to the church. He is Huey Newton, not Martin Luther King.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:40
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FauxGateau posted:On the flip side I don't understand why Anders is so hype about selling Fenris back into slavery when essentially the Mage's situation is state-sponsored slavery. Although I'm sure Anders with his intellect and attention to detail would notice this fallacy and wouldn't condemn another person to actual slavery. Surely he'll understand his situation and act accordingly whe- oh wait. No. He's just going to be a petty rear end in a top hat. For all Fenris' rhetoric (which is less than I think y'all think), he's more like the grouchy old man on the porch who shakes his cane but doesn't actually do anything. Also, there are several times where Fenris gives advice to Hawke or Merrill on how not to become evil, so he certainly acknowledges it as a possibility. quote:Anders: Could you stop with the, "All mages are evil," diatribe for one minute?
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Sep 29, 2013 23:42
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Kibayasu posted:I had brought Fenris along to the end of Merril's quest as well as Anders. Merril got quite the brutal talking to from those two, it was hilarious. Man I hate Merril but even I wouldn't bring those fuckers along during that quest. I really don't like her at all but I still feel horrible for her when all this bad poo poo happens. It's like beating up a retarded person.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:42
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I'll give the writer's enough credit to say this is intentional, the same with Fenris hating slavery but also wishing he could kill all mages. They're both hypocritical assholes basically. What likable characters. Well, Fenris has either been a slave of mages or been actively hunted by mages his entire memory. If the last ten years were quiet that'd be one thing, but he just can't shake those fuckers 'til Act 3. e: Although the best thing about Fenris is when he throws the bottle of wine against the wall and it explodes into PS1-era smoke. 
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Sep 30, 2013 00:00
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Fenris was the only romanceable character I never romanced in DA2. He was very whiny. I am tempted to try and find my disk and reinstall to rivalry romance him on a mage hawke, just because I feel like doing a play through with full rivalry with everyone besides Varric (who is a cool dude)
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Sep 30, 2013 00:57
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KittyEmpress posted:Fenris was the only romanceable character I never romanced in DA2. He was very whiny. I am tempted to try and find my disk and reinstall to rivalry romance him on a mage hawke, just because I feel like doing a play through with full rivalry with everyone besides Varric (who is a cool dude) I only did Anders' to see it, and I can't see how anyone could get through it unironically. People showcase Merrill's as creepy and weird, but it ain't got poo poo on the Anders romance. "A spooky ghost who was in a corpse is now in abusive homeless terrorist, exactly what is it you see in this guy?" At least Varric always has the conversation with you about how dumb your romantic decisions are, too bad your mom doesn't too. She gives a halfhearted one-liner. At least Gamlen is there to make a disparaging comment if you're gay. Pick fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 00:58
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I did ander's on my first play through, because I was picking only pro mage answers and being super woo mage, and he matched it. I never did it again, nor would I. My issue with seeing Fenris' romance was that I liked playing mages too much (except for having to deal with Carver.)
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Sep 30, 2013 01:05
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Hey, can we talk about Gamlen for a minute? I mean, sure, he gambled away your mom's house, but holy poo poo is your family ever terrible to him. The Hawkes spend over a year living in his giant-rear end house, never once cleaning it, never once paying rent, never once paying for their own food. I always felt really bad for that dude.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:09
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The Crotch posted:Hey, can we talk about Gamlen for a minute? I mean, sure, he gambled away your mom's house, but holy poo poo is your family ever terrible to him. The Hawkes spend over a year living in his giant-rear end house, never once cleaning it, never once paying rent, never once paying for their own food. Isn't it implied that Hawke only needed to work for the mercs/thieves for so long because Gamlen already had some debt they needed him to pay off? Also he is kind of a poo poo head if your sibling dies in the deep roads. Actually he is always a poo poo head. I see where Carver's massive douche genes ended up the generation before.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:12
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The Crotch posted:Hey, can we talk about Gamlen for a minute? I mean, sure, he gambled away your mom's house, but holy poo poo is your family ever terrible to him. The Hawkes spend over a year living in his giant-rear end house, never once cleaning it, never once paying rent, never once paying for their own food. I honestly think you should be able to let him move in, and that you can't is a major oversight. Leandra had no right to the estate once she'd left and admitted she had no interest in it when she was in Ferelden. It was Gamlen's, and therefore Gamlen's to lose. Gamlen is an rear end, but he facilitates you as well as he can, and you're only in those tenement conditions for two years. KittyEmpress posted:I never did it again, nor would I. My issue with seeing Fenris' romance was that I liked playing mages too much (except for having to deal with Carver.) 
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Sep 30, 2013 01:12
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The Crotch posted:Hey, can we talk about Gamlen for a minute? I mean, sure, he gambled away your mom's house, but holy poo poo is your family ever terrible to him. The Hawkes spend over a year living in his giant-rear end house, never once cleaning it, never once paying rent, never once paying for their own food. Yeah, I mean he's not a wonderful guy but he doesn't deserve all the poo poo you can give him. Your family literally shows up randomly one year after being gone for ages and he manages to get you into the city and gives you a place to stay. The whole time your Mom just bitches at him over everything. When he asks her to help pay for the rent, a perfectly reasonable request when you're all able bodied and have been living in house for a year, she actually gets pissed off at him. That's ridiculous. Your mom is such a horrible character. You're supposed to feel bad for her after she's gone through so much, but she's just vile. She whines endlessly while doing basically nothing to remedy her situation. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 01:15
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KittyEmpress posted:Isn't it implied that Hawke only needed to work for the mercs/thieves for so long because Gamlen already had some debt they needed him to pay off?
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Sep 30, 2013 01:17
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Internet Kraken posted:Your mom is such a horrible character. You're supposed to feel bad for her after she's gone through so much, but she's just vile. She whines endlessly while doing basically nothing to remedy her situation. She says she's trying to set you up with a husband even if you're a female Hawke who has activated the Merrill or Isabela romances. Bigot mom  .
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Sep 30, 2013 01:18
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Internet Kraken posted:Blood magic isn't inherently evil, it is just another form of magic after all, but off the top of my head there are 3 main reasons it is almost universally despised Woah back up a moment. Whatever else is being said, lets not delude ourselves about blood magic. Blood Magic absolutely is inherently evil. It enables mind control and actively incentivizes viewing your fellow man as nothing more than mere batteries for your greatness. Blood Magic was the enabler for the Tevinter out-Mengele-ing the loving Nazis. It's super inherently evil.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:19
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Pick posted:Being a mage has almost no effect on the Fenris romance. It has the effect of me saying hey shut the gently caress up about how terrible mages are. Speaking of reinstalling, did any of those mods that were supposed to let you keep Bethany while playing a mage finished? Last I recall of them is that one of them 'finished' but removed all references of you being a mage, changing you to a warrior for all dialogue. I didn't think it would be that hard to make Bethany the only one who thinks you aren't a mage. Captain Oblivious posted:Woah back up a moment. Whatever else is being said, lets not delude ourselves about blood magic. It isn't inherently evil. Blood magic rituals are extremely powerful magic that are almost universally seen as useful. The Grey Wardens Joining is blood magic, your father used blood magic in Legacy. Avernus in Warden's Keep did nothing wrong with blood magic until he went insane from being alone in a demon invested keep for a hundred or so years. Blood magic is powerful and has the ability to manipulate others, but it is still a useful magic. It is so dangerous because it makes the ouser weaker (blood instead of mana) while making them think they are super strong. Everything else about it is the use of if, not the magic itself. I mean raising the dead like Entropy magic does is pretty Not Okay. There is also the fact that almost every blood mage turns to it because they are weak willed and scared, which probably helped to give it its poor reputation. Even the guy from the Mage origin is one of the nicer people in the world, despite being both a blood mage and an assassin. It is just that like most things, being able to do something like control bodies is tempting so people do it. KittyEmpress fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 01:19
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The Crotch posted:Hawke has to work for mercs/thieves for so long because Hawke is indebted to them for getting him in to the city. Without Gamlen's debt (which is paid by referring you to the mercs/thieves), you'd have been forced back into a boat and sent to another hey wait a minute all of DA2 is actually Gamlen's fault, gently caress that guy. The quest where you find Gamlen's daughter is sort of you coming to peace with him, but you could give him some money to move out of his crap shack too.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:21
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:I'll give the writer's enough credit to say this is intentional, the same with Fenris hating slavery but also wishing he could kill all mages. They're both hypocritical assholes basically. What likable characters. You can actually point this out to Fenris at the end of the game if you decide to side with the mages, it can even get him on your side if you haven't maxed out either friendship or rivalry with him. Pick posted:She says she's trying to set you up with a husband even if you're a female Hawke who has activated the Merrill or Isabela romances. Bigot mom But everyone swings both ways in Kirkwall, maybe mom just wants grandchildren. Penakoto fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 01:24
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Penakoto posted:But everyone swings both ways in Kirkwall, maybe mom just wants grandchildren. It isn't like Carver will provide her with any, even if the Templar allow that because he is a dick who no one likes. And Warden or Circle Mage, either way Bethany wouldn't be allowed to have kids. Her only hope is for her oldest son/daughter.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:Woah back up a moment. Whatever else is being said, lets not delude ourselves about blood magic. What I meant was that using blood magic didn't automatically make you completely evil, not that it wasn't a horrible magic to use. I did phrase it poorly though.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:36
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KittyEmpress posted:It isn't like Carver will provide her with any, even if the Templar allow that because he is a dick who no one likes. And Warden or Circle Mage, either way Bethany wouldn't be allowed to have kids. Her only hope is for her oldest son/daughter. She might reconsider when she realizes the only way to get grandkids is by her son/daughter reproducing with Anders, Merrill, Fenris, or Isabela. (Sebastian's out 'cause he's chaaaaste.)
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Sep 30, 2013 01:41
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Pick posted:She might reconsider when she realizes the only way to get grandkids is by her son/daughter reproducing with Anders, Merrill, Fenris, or Isabela. (Sebastian's out 'cause he's chaaaaste.) Fenris and Isabella at least don't seem likely to kill their own kids on accident. Merrill would forget to feed a kid, and Anders would probably blow it up if it wasn't a mage. Or something else incredibly stupid.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:51
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I don't think you can be around that much of a glowing mineral without going sterile. Also, Isabela's Act 3 gift implies she can't have kids either. Well done, Hawke!
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Sep 30, 2013 01:53
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Pick posted:I don't think you can be around that much of a glowing mineral without going sterile. Fenris' can have kids, but they all are lyrium addled much like Sandal was after being left in the lyrium filled deep roads for so long. This also makes them all mages. Fenris' life is hell.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:55
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The world as a whole would benefit if Hawke's family doesn't reproduce anyways. In fact, nobody from Kirkwall should. Just pretend that place never existed. We can call it the Kirkwall solution.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:56
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Internet Kraken posted:The world as a whole would benefit if Hawke's family doesn't reproduce anyways. In fact, nobody from Kirkwall should. Just pretend that place never existed. We can call it the Kirkwall solution. Varric needs to pass down his badassitude to the next generation. And Aveline deserves a happy ending.
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Sep 30, 2013 01:59
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Pick posted:I don't think you can be around that much of a glowing mineral without going sterile. Given her sex life, she'd kind of have to be or she'd already birthed a new crew on her own. Oh, and don't forget that Anders is still a veteran Grey Warden, so even if he weren't an abomination he'd have next to no chance of reproducing. So that leaves Merrill (mage Dalish elf almost certain to produce another mage with Hawke's bloodline) and Sebastian if he abandons his vow. No wonder Mama Hawke was so intent on setting her oldest up. Internet Kraken posted:The world as a whole would benefit if Hawke's family doesn't reproduce anyways. In fact, nobody from Kirkwall should. Just pretend that place never existed. We can call it the Kirkwall solution. Well, the mage Warden is technically from Kirkwall, but s/he escaped young enough to avoid being tainted with its crazy. Unlike his/her poor cousin. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 02:00
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