politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

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Peanut President: Nov 5, 2008; by Athanatos

Congo Territory? I guess that's a replacement for Liberia?

# ? Oct 1, 2013 13:37

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# ? May 17, 2024 21:30

QuoProQuid: Jan 12, 2012; Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

DerLeo posted:

What in hell happened to Europe

I haven't read the timeline in a while, but from what I remember the point of divergence is Jackson being assassinated by Richard Lawrence. If I remember correctly, Austria is invaded simultaneously by Prussia and Italy over minor land holdings. France jumps in to assert its hegemony and the Hapsburg rule completely collapses. The powers of Europe are left holding a bag of poo poo and try to settle various land disputes in a Conference of Europe. (It fails.)

Better map of North America in the timeline:

The World in a New Century, Section II: Ibero North America posted:

California:
The Republic of California lies west of the Rio Bravo and south of the Oregon Country. A fairly wealthy state, California has received much of its progress from the gold and silver found in the Sierra Nevada and other mountain ranges of the country. Because of this, large cities like San Diego, San Francisco, and the capital at Monterey have arisen along the coast. The cities around San Francisco Bay have grown to become some of the largest in California. The city of San Francisco itself has become the major port and commercial center in the country, and is often known as the "Valparaiso of North America". In the interior, the majority of the population of California lives in the fertile San Joaquin Valley or along the Sacramento River. However, there are some settlements in the far interior, particularly those of the Mormons around the Great Salt Lake.

California is one of the most diverse countries in all of the Americas. Like Cuba in the United States, the people are mainly Ibero and mestizo. California, however, has been a destination for much of the immigration of Asians to North America. In fact, the cities in California have the largest population of Mongolians in the entire continent. These immigrants primarily come from the Philippines and China, and are concentrated in the coastal cities. Many Mongolians also inhabit the portion of the Hawaiian archipelago that is owned by California. Further east, the Mormons are the dominant people and their church remains the dominant religion there. The more remote desert regions of the country are populated by Indian tribes and do not receive much attention from the local authorities so stick to their barbarous ways.

While California claims to be a republic, the actual practice of the government is rather bad. The people are given some representation, but often the President will go against the wishes of the people with few consequences. The Mormons have recently been barred from representation within the Californian Senate. The country has also been subject to many coups in the past decades as generals or political opponents of the ruling president can easily gather enough support to oust whoever is in power.

Mexican States:
South of California and the state of Tejas are several small countries. These countries used to be united as the country of Mexico. In the 1830s, the United States fought a war with Mexico to free the Republic of Texas, which later joined the United States. Mexico suffered further political instability and collapsed into a number of countries in the late 1850s. Since then, the countries have been led by warlords though they claim to be republics. This is partially due to the ignorance of the people after breeding with the local Indians for centuries, and partly due to the ease at which such governments have been overthrown.

Of the Mexican states, Veracruz, Chihuahua, and Rio Bravo are the most important to the United States. Veracruz is a thriving port city-state and is the main point of entry and exit for goods going between the United States and Mexico. Recently, the United States has been getting more involved in the Mexican states. Just in the last decade, the United States freed Chihuahua from Rio Bravo. The other countries in the region are Durango, Granidalgo, Tlaxcala, the Mexican Republic, Queretaro, and Jalisco. Tlaxcala is of particular interest because it is governed by a splinter group from the Catholic Church known as the Anti-Papacy.

Mesoamerican Union:
The Mesoamerican Union is a collection of formerly independent countries that formed a unified government only in the last two decades. The component republics of the Mesoamerican Union are Oaxaca, Guatemala, Yucatan, Honduras, Salvador, and Nicaragua. Each republic has its own government but is subservient to the federal Mesoamerican government, much like our own states. The federal government of Mesoamerica contains a unicameral legislature and is led by a president elected by the legislature. The Mesoamerican legislature is peculiar in that it not only includes seats for each constituent republic, but also for certain Indian tribes. No other republican government in the world has been so accommodating to the uncivilized races in its country.

The Mesoamerican Union is a very important trading partner to the United States. From here, we import many agricultural goods that are unable to be produced in the United States except perhaps in Cuba. The principal goods that the United States imports from Mesoamerica are rubber, sugar, and fruit. The United Fruit Company has many land holdings in Mesoamerica and thanks to the support of the Mesoamerican government, tariffs have been reduced between our two nations and have allowed for American companies to prosper in the region.

There is one other nation in the region that has a significant importance to the United States. This is the small nation of Costa Rica, which lies south of Mesoamerica. While Costa Rica is small, its significance lies in its location as a strategic transportation route between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Here is where the plans have been drawn up for a canal to connect the two oceans. The canal is planned to be dug through the northern part of Costa Rica, from the Atlantic Ocean along the San Juan River up to Lake Cocibolca, then through the narrow isthmus on the other side of the lake to connect with the Pacific. The canal has the potential to greatly influence American trade and interests in the Pacific and throughout Ibero-America.

Aside from these independent nations, the colony of British Honduras is the last possession of the Europeans in Central America.

Caribbean:
Unlike the other areas discussed in this section, most of the Caribbean has failed to become independent of Europe and the majority of the islands remain colonies. The reason for this are geographical and cultural. The geographical reason is that the warm tropical climate causes people to become lazy as food and agriculture is so easily accessible in the islands of the Caribbean, the people are not compelled to work hard in order to better themselves. The cultural reason is that the abundance of uncivilized negroes and Indians as well as half breeds has prevented the islands from recognizing the benefits of independence.

The only independent nation in the Caribbean thus far is Haiti on the island of Hispanola. Haiti achieved its independence from the French almost a century ago after the negro slaves overthrew their French masters. Sixty years prior to the abolition of slavery in the United States, Haiti became the only country in the Americas to be led by negroes. However, the Haitians remained savages for the most part and their government has become very bad. Haiti is led by a brutal emperor who does not allow his people a voice in the affairs of government and punishes them for objecting to his rule.

The rest of the Caribbean is mostly governed by European colonies, with the exception being our own state of Cuba. These colonies produce much of the world's sugar and the sugar planters on the islands have become very rich. Great Britain has several colonies near Cuba such as the Bahamian Islands and the isle of Jamaica. France, Britain, and the Netherlands also possess a number of islands in the Lesser Antilles in the eastern Caribbean. Between Haiti and the Lesser Antilles, Spain and Denmark also have minor colonies. After selling Cuba to the United States in 1848, the only Spanish possession in the Caribbean is now Porto Rico. The Danes also retain a small number of islands east of Porto Rico. All of the European colonies are mostly populated by negroes or Indians, and it will be a while before they can become civilized enough before they can be trusted to govern themselves.

EDIT:

Peanut President posted:

Congo Territory? I guess that's a replacement for Liberia?

Essentially. I think they buy it off the Belgians.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 13:50

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
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When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Verus posted:

Even in crazy alternate timelines Eugene Debs can't win any electoral votes

I can't remember the details of the election but in Reds! Washington D.C. is renamed Washington-Debs D.C. so at least he gets some recognition there!

# ? Oct 1, 2013 13:50

Pakled: Aug 6, 2011; WE ARE SMART

That looks like the result of someone's Victoria II game.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 15:46

DrBouvenstein: Feb 28, 2007; I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.

An alternate 1930's United States, from a very reliable and well researched source:

It's Crimson Skies for X-Box. :ssh:

# ? Oct 1, 2013 16:43

QuoProQuid: Jan 12, 2012; Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

Oh God, those borders.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 16:43

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Should have called it Hollywoodland

# ? Oct 1, 2013 16:50

DrBouvenstein: Feb 28, 2007; I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.

As far as I know, the game doesn't actually ever show the whole map, I'm pretty sure that's fan made from taking the bits and pieces the game does show.

I can only assume whoever made it lives in Louisiana, because that's the only reason I can surmise that it's borders are the only on in the lower 48 that are exactly the same.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 17:00

Weird BIAS: Jul 5, 2007; so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.

QuoProQuid posted:

I haven't read the timeline in a while, but from what I remember the point of divergence is Jackson being assassinated by Richard Lawrence. If I remember correctly, Austria is invaded simultaneously by Prussia and Italy over minor land holdings. France jumps in to assert its hegemony and the Hapsburg rule completely collapses. The powers of Europe are left holding a bag of poo poo and try to settle various land disputes in a Conference of Europe. (It fails.)

Better map of North America in the timeline:

EDIT:

Essentially. I think they buy it off the Belgians.

Why the hell is Manitoba called Deseret?

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:19

Peruser: Feb 23, 2013

Weird BIAS posted:

Why the hell is Manitoba called Deseret?

Mormon Canadians

Which is the best thing about that map :allears:

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:19

Empress Theonora: Feb 19, 2001; She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.

Pakled posted:

That looks like the result of someone's Victoria II game.

It would be pretty funny if somebody just posted a Paradox game AAR without screenshots at AH.com and waited to see how long before anybody caught on.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:26

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

Rincewind posted:

It would be pretty funny if somebody just posted a Paradox game AAR without screenshots at AH.com and waited to see how long before anybody caught on.

At least half of the ARRs on the paradox forums are mostly this any way ...

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:33

Kurtofan: Feb 16, 2011; hon hon hon

Weird BIAS posted:

Why the hell is Manitoba called Deseret?

Also there is already a New Caledonia.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:39

Benagain: Oct 10, 2007; Can you see that I am serious?; Fun Shoe

Did they seriously just flip utah upside down for mormon canada?

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:44

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

DerLeo posted:

What in hell happened to Europe

This is an excellent question. I have no idea what crazy poo poo went down to make Prussia & France or Russia & England play nice.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 19:55

LP97S: Apr 25, 2008

DrBouvenstein posted:

As far as I know, the game doesn't actually ever show the whole map, I'm pretty sure that's fan made from taking the bits and pieces the game does show.

I can only assume whoever made it lives in Louisiana, because that's the only reason I can surmise that it's borders are the only on in the lower 48 that are exactly the same.

Not just Xbox, there was a PC game before that and the whole franchise is spawned from a board game by FASA, the guys who created other board and tabletop games like Battletech/Mechwarrior and Shadowrun. Also, :goonsay:

# ? Oct 1, 2013 20:04

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

QuoProQuid posted:

If I remember correctly, Austria is invaded simultaneously by Prussia and Italy over minor land holdings.

That pretty much happened in 1866. While Italy grabbed Veneto, Bismarck told the Prussian military to knock off any stupid ideas of grabbing Bohemia and settled for what he came for: political dominance in Germany.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 20:41

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

DrBouvenstein posted:

An alternate 1930's United States, from a very reliable and well researched source:

It's Crimson Skies for X-Box.

As noted by LP97S, it was a PC game and a board game before that Xbox game showed up*. Both the original FASA boardgame and the PC game provided full maps of North America, and provided loads of fluff about the history of the world and how on earth stuff came to be. Some things make less sense than others, like Fiorello Laguardia somehow becoming an anti-immigrant isolationist or how on earth Britain would let chaos in America spill over and cause Canada to implode, but on the whole it's decently well fleshed-out all things considered.

I've wanted to see how other people envision Crimson Skies' Europe. There's Nazis in Germany, but fluff in the boardgame and PC game both also make mention of the Kaiser's government.

*Older Crimson Skies fans apparently treat the Xbox game almost the same as Star Trek fans treat Enterprise; that game took a lot of liberties with earlier material and violated some early Crimson Skies worldbuilding rules, like "no Tesla-tech".

Ofaloaf fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Oct 1, 2013

# ? Oct 1, 2013 20:41

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

It's not impossible for Germany to split, weren't there some separatist movements between the wars?

Also Russia has Red and White segments in Crimson Skies, doesn't it? That'd be a really interesting WW2.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 20:52

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

wdarkk posted:

It's not impossible for Germany to split, weren't there some separatist movements between the wars?

I think the Kaiser and the Nazis were supposed to be part of the same country. The old official Crimson Skies site associated with the PC game had some newspaper articles that followed up on the game's ending, where (I think) the Empire State complained to "the Kaiser's government" in response to Nazi actions in New York.

# ? Oct 1, 2013 21:17

Mr. Belpit: Nov 11, 2008

Could be a figurehead monarch situation, then. Like WWII-era Japan.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 00:36

Empress Theonora: Feb 19, 2001; She was a sword glinting in the depths of night, a lance of light piercing the darkness. There would be no mistakes this time.

The Nazis rose to power within the framework of the Weimar Republic, so I suppose they might have done so without throwing out the monarchy if it had lasted after the war or whatever.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 02:59

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Sounds more like the DNVP and the like who originally supported the Nazi's rise might've decided to go with a restoration of the monarchy instead- besides, a collapsed US would've done all sorts of awful poo poo to the world economy, so who knows what's happened.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 03:14

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

Somehow Wilhelm gets put in charge of a constitutional monarchy-type deal in Germany in the late '20s/early '30s, then the Nazis beat and cheat and sleaze their way into power as per actual history and he becomes a figurehead like President von Hindenburg. Out of all of Crimson Skies that's one of the most plausibly explainable things, really.

Wait, why are we trying to apply logic to an old (but pretty awesome) Zeppelin-punk airplane game again?

# ? Oct 2, 2013 04:22

JosefStalinator: Oct 9, 2007; Come Tbilisi if you want to live.; Grimey Drawer

wdarkk posted:

It's not impossible for Germany to split, weren't there some separatist movements between the wars?

Also Russia has Red and White segments in Crimson Skies, doesn't it? That'd be a really interesting WW2.

Before Weimar, a lot of princes, dukes, and sub-kings existed in Germany:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Deutsches_Reich1.svg

Bavaria had a pretty popular King and was the most culturally distinct German state, so it splitting off even after World War 2 (when they negotiated a separate agreement regarding the future of West Germany) is entirely a possibility. If Bavaria were to break off, some of the others might as well, like maybe Saxony, but I don't know enough about the rest to tell you if they had any feasible chance at separation.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 08:09

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

PittTheElder posted:

This is an excellent question. I have no idea what crazy poo poo went down to make Prussia & France or Russia & England play nice.

I read through it. Apparently Louis-Napoleon is a completely different person somehow, because not only does he not declare himself Emperor, but he manages not to lead France to humiliating military defeats and ruin absolutely everything he ever touches anywhere. He beats Britain in a Napoleonic War II and allies with an enlightened German Constitutional Monarchy under Kaiser Frederick III (who is presumably more favorable to France because unlike his father Wilhelm and his son Wilhelm he was not a psychopath in our time line either).

Seriously, Louis-Napoleon being competent at anything is the most unrealistic and ridiculous counterfactual, and I say this even knowing it contains US President Sam Houston

# ? Oct 2, 2013 08:27

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

JosefStalinator posted:

Before Weimar, a lot of princes, dukes, and sub-kings existed in Germany:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Deutsches_Reich1.svg

Bavaria had a pretty popular King and was the most culturally distinct German state, so it splitting off even after World War 2 (when they negotiated a separate agreement regarding the future of West Germany) is entirely a possibility. If Bavaria were to break off, some of the others might as well, like maybe Saxony, but I don't know enough about the rest to tell you if they had any feasible chance at separation.

Well, at least it was less of a clusterfuck then before.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/HRR_1789_EN.png

# ? Oct 2, 2013 12:06

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Anyone who has played EU4 knows that the HRE is basically thunderdome because of the 50 or so princes in it.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 12:49

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Lawman 0 posted:

Anyone who has played EU4 knows that the HRE is basically thunderdome because of the 50 or so princes in it.

And messing with the HRE is very impolite indeed (casus belli!)

# ? Oct 2, 2013 15:40

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

VitalSigns posted:

I read through it. Apparently Louis-Napoleon is a completely different person somehow, because not only does he not declare himself Emperor, but he manages not to lead France to humiliating military defeats and ruin absolutely everything he ever touches anywhere. He beats Britain in a Napoleonic War II and allies with an enlightened German Constitutional Monarchy under Kaiser Frederick III (who is presumably more favorable to France because unlike his father Wilhelm and his son Wilhelm he was not a psychopath in our time line either).

Seriously, Louis-Napoleon being competent at anything is the most unrealistic and ridiculous counterfactual, and I say this even knowing it contains US President Sam Houston

Yeah, that's pretty damned implausible. Although I'm honestly surprised there isn't more Alt-Hist based on Friedrich III not immediately dying of throat cancer, or being on the throne a little earlier. Maybe there is and it just doesn't come up because the only Alt-Hist I see is the ridiculous stuff we make fun of here.

And I'd disagree with calling Wilhelm II a psychopath. He was really much more of a deluded man-child.

Lawman 0 posted:

Anyone who has played EU4 knows that the HRE is basically thunderdome because of the 50 or so princes in it.

Not anymore. 1.2 seems to have largely put a stop to that, because accumulating any AE at all will cause everyone else to coalition up against you.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Oct 2, 2013

# ? Oct 2, 2013 18:04

VitalSigns: Sep 3, 2011

JosefStalinator posted:

Bavaria had a pretty popular King and was the most culturally distinct German state, so it splitting off even after World War 2 (when they negotiated a separate agreement regarding the future of West Germany) is entirely a possibility. If Bavaria were to break off, some of the others might as well, like maybe Saxony, but I don't know enough about the rest to tell you if they had any feasible chance at separation.

This actually happened, briefly. I give you the Bavarian Soviet Republic!

In the aftermath of WWI, a Communist revolution deposed the Bavarian monarchy and declared independence. Even though this was obviously to the benefit of England and France, the ruling moneyed elite preferred to send millions of the poor to die in the event of another war with a united Germany than risk their wealth and position in case a successful socialist example gave their lower classes ideas. Of course. So the Entente aided their former enemy in a right-wing paramilitary conquest. :rolleyes:

PittTheElder posted:

Although I'm honestly surprised there isn't more Alt-Hist based on Friedrich III not immediately dying of throat cancer, or being on the throne a little earlier.

Me too it's such an interesting what-if. Although given Freddy's personal views, Prussia's historical British alliance, and his happy marriage to Queen Victoria's friggin oldest daughter and namesake I find it hard to believe he'd ally with a Bonaparte against his mother-in-law.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 23:01

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

PittTheElder posted:

Yeah, that's pretty damned implausible. Although I'm honestly surprised there isn't more Alt-Hist based on Friedrich III not immediately dying of throat cancer, or being on the throne a little earlier. Maybe there is and it just doesn't come up because the only Alt-Hist I see is the ridiculous stuff we make fun of here.

You know what would be a cool Fred the Third/Parliamentary Germany divergence? The last surgery done on him, the one that was botched and ended up not helping-- if it had succeeded, Frederick III would've practically had no voice left at all. Just having an emperor incapable of talking would've forced the empire to shift more of the burden of government to the Reichstag, although Frederick could've surely written as much as his hands would let him.

# ? Oct 2, 2013 23:09

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

Someone over at the New York Times cracked out the marker pens and had a go at drawing some new borders for the Middle East. HRE fans rejoice, looks like Free Cities are going to make a comeback!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/opinion/sunday/imagining-a-remapped-middle-east.html?pagewanted=1

Also looks like Damascus gets destroyed in the Syrian War or something...

# ? Oct 2, 2013 23:49

Emanuel Collective: Jan 16, 2008; by Smythe

kustomkarkommando posted:

Someone over at the New York Times cracked out the marker pens and had a go at drawing some new borders for the Middle East. HRE fans rejoice, looks like Free Cities are going to make a comeback!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/opinion/sunday/imagining-a-remapped-middle-east.html?pagewanted=1

Also looks like Damascus gets destroyed in the Syrian War or something...

really glad Israel and Palestine have eradicated current and future strife with their current borders

# ? Oct 3, 2013 00:15

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

kustomkarkommando posted:

Someone over at the New York Times cracked out the marker pens and had a go at drawing some new borders for the Middle East. HRE fans rejoice, looks like Free Cities are going to make a comeback!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/opinion/sunday/imagining-a-remapped-middle-east.html?pagewanted=1

Also looks like Damascus gets destroyed in the Syrian War or something...

I think the use of -stan for countries is becoming as annoying as -gate for political scandals.

# ? Oct 3, 2013 00:33

Peruser: Feb 23, 2013

North Arabia
South Arabia
Western Arabia
Eastern Arabia
~~Wahabistan~~ Central Arabia

I mean at least make it fit a theme

# ? Oct 3, 2013 00:49

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Kurdistan makes sense and is also a real-life term. Sunnistan is questionable and Alawitestan just sounds stupid. Why would these Arab nations have an Indo-Iranian suffix in their names?

# ? Oct 3, 2013 00:55

QuoProQuid: Jan 12, 2012; Tr*ckin' and F*ckin' all the way to tha
T O P

Nevermind. I am stupid.

# ? Oct 3, 2013 01:10

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

Also it kinda goes without saying that making "$_RELIGION land" a nation is just an awful idea for a country larger than one city. I'm sure there will be no problems for nonSunnis living in Sunnistan.

# ? Oct 3, 2013 01:15

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# ? May 17, 2024 21:30

PrinceRandom: Feb 26, 2013

I'm sure Sunnistan will be a very economically stable state, what with having the Syrian Desert and no Ports. And Saudi Arabia spilting up would be an even worse mess.

# ? Oct 3, 2013 01:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

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