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rypakal posted:I also don't like the fact that the game is best played by quickly settling a few cities and then never doing it again. It's perfectly fine to settle a lot of cities or settle after the national college completes or something. The only caveat is that the new city is in a good enough location to pay itself back - which is to say any spot with decent amounts of food and production. The 5% science cost per city is nothing as long as the city can grow big enough to make up for the lost science, and plus all the advantages of having more cities still apply. You get more science, production, gold, higher probability of strategic resources. It's always been better to have a strong wide empire of 5-7 cities than it has been to have a few really tall cities. It's just a question of how much happiness can you obtain and how much can those new cities grow.
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Oct 3, 2013 06:48
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So Venice question: what kind of victory should I be going for? Diplomacy's out since I'll need to puppet city-states, and Conquest is probably out too, but are Culture and Science victories feasible with such a small empire? e: also do you reccommend just using the beta patch?
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Oct 3, 2013 06:52
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StashAugustine posted:So Venice question: what kind of victory should I be going for? Diplomacy's out since I'll need to puppet city-states, and Conquest is probably out too, but are Culture and Science victories feasible with such a small empire? You can still do Diplomacy. The votes needed to win World Leader are reduced as CS are absorbed.
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Oct 3, 2013 06:57
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Captain Postal posted:It's a fair point. I think there is a major missing mechanic in the game: IRL between the arrival of caravels and the arrival of factories, there were all sorts of colonial wars being fought which would extend to proxy wars during the cold war, and that definitely feels missing. Colonial wars against city states could be fun if they reintroduced vassalage. Maybe if you reduced the number of city states to less than double and could take control of them in some other way than warmongering conquest or straight-up allying. Quick and dirty idea, but an option to "subjugate" a citystate from Gunpowder to Radio that say gives you half the CS's gold and science, double the alliance bonus and it becomes considered "your" territory for upgrades and open borders. City states will often put up a fight, but subjugating a citystate in this time period incurs a very weak warmonger penalty. This also effects you liberating a citystate from subjugation or swapping it to your control.
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Oct 3, 2013 07:00
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StashAugustine posted:So Venice question: what kind of victory should I be going for? Diplomacy's out since I'll need to puppet city-states, and Conquest is probably out too, but are Culture and Science victories feasible with such a small empire? Venice is all about going ridiculously tall / OCC, and getting a shitload of gold from trade routes. You don't necessarily need to puppet City-States, and even if you did it's not really going to hurt you much given the way the votes work. Culture and Science are definitely viable too; with Freedom you can just buy spaceship parts (so you lose a lot less by being able to make them in parallel), and Cultural victories tend to rely on a handful of huge tourist producing cities anyway.
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Oct 3, 2013 07:10
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StashAugustine posted:So Venice question: what kind of victory should I be going for? Diplomacy's out since I'll need to puppet city-states, and Conquest is probably out too, but are Culture and Science victories feasible with such a small empire? Your empire isn't necessarily going to be small. In my first game as Venice, I ended up with 11 cities at the end (and I still barely had enough museums to hold all of my artifacts). If you prioritize wonders that give merchant points, you can actually end up with a lot of merchants. The Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, the Great Lighthouse, and the Colossus are great sources of early merchant points, and the Colossus is doubly good since you get two trade routes from it.
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Oct 3, 2013 07:13
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What you really need to do as Venice is to use your surplus of trade routes and (formerly) city state puppets to ferry ridiculous quantities of food to your capital. In fact, everyone should do this, good abuse of food cargo ships can shoot you to size 30 very early (like renaissance era early). One food cargo ship is already stronger than the Hanging Gardens. With Monarchy, this is an extremely efficient use of happiness and generates tons of science and production. In other words, the best starts are coastal, in a bay, where you don't run out of good tiles until you reach the mid-20s. And even if that were the case, this is the era where you start getting lots of spare specialist slots to work.
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Oct 3, 2013 07:34
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Triskelli posted:Maybe if you reduced the number of city states to less than double and could take control of them in some other way than warmongering conquest or straight-up allying. I think it would be easier (and more fun) if you controlled their units, territory, production and diplomacy (like Russia vs USSR and Warsaw pact countries). Then you can declare war with the city state but leave your own empire out of it. Maybe any city the CS captures becomes a new CS that is already subjugated with the same level of control? Lose alliance and you lose the subjugation to become merely threatening maybe?
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Oct 3, 2013 07:44
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Phobophilia posted:What you really need to do as Venice is to use your surplus of trade routes and (formerly) city state puppets to ferry ridiculous quantities of food to your capital. In fact, everyone should do this, good abuse of food cargo ships can shoot you to size 30 very early (like renaissance era early). One food cargo ship is already stronger than the Hanging Gardens. With Monarchy, this is an extremely efficient use of happiness and generates tons of science and production. This is a key strategy to Venice and is honestly how they're probably designed to be played. So you definitely need to puppet some city states. If you're going to warmonger, maybe only puppet a couple, otherwise have at least 4 CS puppets, all shipping food into Venice. One or two more couldn't hurt. Beyond that, you're better off using your remaining Merchants of Venice on trade missions, after you have gotten the social policies that increase trade mission income. You should really try to get almost entirely Merchants of Venice, avoiding other GPs. Using them for trade missions in the second half of the game with the boost from commerce will yield large amounts of gold with regularity. Use that gold from that and trade routes to pursue basically any victory type, even conquest. Conquest is perfectly doable with Big Ben, the commerce SP that reduces purchase cost, and the Autocracy tenet that reduces unit purchasing. You'll be able to buy units for incredibly cheap and you'll have all the gold in the world to do it with. Or just use your MoVs to give you a leg up on the diplomatic victory. Or go freedom and buy yourself a spaceship. The most difficult one is maybe Cultural because gold doesn't really give you a leg up on that. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Oct 4, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 08:13
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Assyria is rapidly becoming my favorite "go nuts and kill everything" civ. I can fully destroy up to three civs before anybody hits the middle ages, and if I'm lucky and we're all on one continent, the guys on the other continent have no clue I've completely and utterly murdered my way to the top.
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Oct 3, 2013 08:26
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I've heard the ai bonuses were changed with bNW. Does anyone know anything about that?
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Oct 3, 2013 09:19
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So if I have just the base game and the free DLC, what things would I need to buy to get everything? Just the Gold upgrade + BNW, or does Gold not include all the prior DLC?
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Oct 3, 2013 12:39
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Flagrant Abuse posted:So if I have just the base game and the free DLC, what things would I need to buy to get everything? Just the Gold upgrade + BNW, or does Gold not include all the prior DLC?  )
Navaash fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Oct 3, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 13:14
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Navaash posted:Gold has everything up to but not including BNW. Those of us who bought Game of the Year Edition way back when are missing Wonders of the Ancient World + Korea, which is the awkward situation I find myself in despite having BNW.
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Oct 3, 2013 13:22
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Captain Postal posted:It's a fair point. I think there is a major missing mechanic in the game: IRL between the arrival of caravels and the arrival of factories, there were all sorts of colonial wars being fought which would extend to proxy wars during the cold war, and that definitely feels missing. Colonial wars against city states could be fun if they reintroduced vassalage. A problem of civ games has always been that it's really fun during the exploration, expansion, and city buildup phases. And it's really fun during the war/and victory conditions at the end. But I find that I'm racing through the middle of the game. I very rarely fight wars in the middle part of the game unless attacked. I don't have solutions for how to fix this; the middle parts of things are usually the dullest.
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Oct 3, 2013 14:45
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rypakal posted:A problem of civ games has always been that it's really fun during the exploration, expansion, and city buildup phases. And it's really fun during the war/and victory conditions at the end. But I find that I'm racing through the middle of the game. I very rarely fight wars in the middle part of the game unless attacked. I don't have solutions for how to fix this; the middle parts of things are usually the dullest. That's interesting, the middle part of the game is where I usually go on a conquering spree, and it's my favorite part of the game. The end-game is my least favorite, because it's usually a long slog to a victory that was a foregone conclusion 100 turns ago. Maybe it's a marathon thing; wars are more interesting mid-game because I have time to really do it right, but the end-game just drags out.
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Oct 3, 2013 15:22
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I have this weird thing where when I have catapults I think "I'll just wait for trebuchets" and then when I have them I'll think "I'll just wait for cannons" and so on and nothing ever gets done.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:22
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KKKlean Energy posted:I have this weird thing where when I have catapults I think "I'll just wait for trebuchets" and then when I have them I'll think "I'll just wait for cannons" and so on and nothing ever gets done. Me too. Siege weapons are too fragile. Sometimes I'll put three catapults together if conditions are right, but once the city is taken, there's only one left alive so they're really not good for campaigns, just an occasional one city takeover.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:36
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KKKlean Energy posted:I have this weird thing where when I have catapults I think "I'll just wait for trebuchets" and then when I have them I'll think "I'll just wait for cannons" and so on and nothing ever gets done. I'm like this all the way through mech inf.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:43
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Agree on the siege thing. I think that is what makes some games drag on for me. I'll see a perfect opportunity to take some territory but I'll have to slog through those hills with my melee guys, and ugh, my archers will take forever to reduce that city. My trebs will probably die in two turns anyways..gently caress it, just wait for artillery and go conquer everyone then. But then everyone is further along and drags things out even more. If they made siege units more powerful I'd probably be more active in the Renaissance era, but as it is, it's almost faster to wait the 100 or so turns and fight in the atomic or modern age.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:45
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I've actually modified the game myself to give all siege weapons, even catapults, three range. It seems silly to me that a siege weapon should be vulnerable to a direct attack from the city that it's trying to siege--if you want to dislodge a sieging attacker, it seems like you should have to push back with an army. I guess it's sort of cheating, but the AI gets the benefit too, so it sort of isn't? Whatever, I have more fun with the game that way, that's all that matters.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:50
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Ah, I always rush to war as soon as I've got catapults, because I want to have them upgraded to 3-range and double attack by the time they're cannons. Once I have my 2-3 mega-cannons, I can rule the world.
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Oct 3, 2013 18:01
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Never fight a war until stealth bombers and XCOM squads.
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Oct 3, 2013 18:05
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SlightlyMadman posted:Ah, I always rush to war as soon as I've got catapults, because I want to have them upgraded to 3-range and double attack by the time they're cannons. Once I have my 2-3 mega-cannons, I can rule the world. Yeah, if I'm going to be warmongery, then I'm going to start getting XP for catapults as soon as they can be rolled out. Hell, I've used them to poke at fortified barbs to gather more XP.
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Oct 3, 2013 18:06
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Anyone have any tips for stable warmongering? Some of the issues I have are: 1) Making lots of units stunts my civ development/makes me go into deficits 2) Researching lots of military tech makes me weaker in every other category (especially science) 3) Capturing/puppeting civs leads gross amounts of unhappiness. It seems I should raze cities, but the civs end up just recolonizing there if I don't thoroughly obliterate them. 4) Declaring war on anyone (civ or city-state) makes me a warmonger, leading to an effective end to any diplomacy whatsoever.
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Oct 3, 2013 18:42
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I always thought liberating cities should help work against warmonger status, does Civ5 do anything like that?
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Oct 3, 2013 18:46
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Bloody Pancreas posted:Anyone have any tips for stable warmongering? Some of the issues I have are: 1) Focus on having fewer more experienced units, and build new ones as needed. 2) Research science techs, you'll blow past the competition in all areas anyway. 3) Raze, and just watch out for settlers. 4) With BNW, try and make friends before you go on a warpath. Your buddies are very willing to overlook a little warmongering. Also, with the patch any warmongers should focus on generating lots of tourism too. As Germany attacking a 14-pop Rotterdam, I used a Great Musician for a concert to boost my tourism to Popular before sacking the city and came out taking it at 10 pop.
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Oct 3, 2013 18:54
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SlightlyMadman posted:Ah, I always rush to war as soon as I've got catapults, because I want to have them upgraded to 3-range and double attack by the time they're cannons. Once I have my 2-3 mega-cannons, I can rule the world. Do you feel like it's worth it to grab the fortify skill instead of rushing straight to +1 range? I've heard the bonus to fortified only gives marginally more damage and it's not worth it over faster range or logistics.
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Oct 3, 2013 21:43
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GeckoMissingo posted:Do you feel like it's worth it to grab the fortify skill instead of rushing straight to +1 range? I've heard the bonus to fortified only gives marginally more damage and it's not worth it over faster range or logistics. Yeah, I go Barrage 1-3 every time, because it will help you keep them alive when they hole up on a hill. Once you've got Barrage 3, you unlock Logistics and Range, which are the absolute best promotions no matter what. The only real question is which to get first. Mathematically, it makes sense to get Logistics first, because two attacks means you're earning XP twice as fast so you'll get the next promotion quicker. In practice though, I generally go range first, since being able to keep a cat outside of city attack range means it's basically invincible. I've never really tried the bonus against fortified promotion, because the AI rarely ever fortifies anything. Really after Logistics and Range, any other promotions are meaningless since it's already an invincible super-unit.
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Oct 3, 2013 22:18
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SlightlyMadman posted:Yeah, I go Barrage 1-3 every time, because it will help you keep them alive when they hole up on a hill. Once you've got Barrage 3, you unlock Logistics and Range, which are the absolute best promotions no matter what. The only real question is which to get first. Mathematically, it makes sense to get Logistics first, because two attacks means you're earning XP twice as fast so you'll get the next promotion quicker. In practice though, I generally go range first, since being able to keep a cat outside of city attack range means it's basically invincible. The bonuses for fortified units and cities have been rolled into the same promotion, and it absolutely wrecks poo poo. I'll occasionally grab it if I need a city dead ASAP and can't get the job done otherwise, but otherwise range/logistics are way more important.
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Oct 3, 2013 22:21
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Gabriel Pope posted:The bonuses for fortified units and cities have been rolled into the same promotion, and it absolutely wrecks poo poo. I'll occasionally grab it if I need a city dead ASAP and can't get the job done otherwise, but otherwise range/logistics are way more important. Is it more than a 100% bonus? If not, two attacks is still better, and arguably two attacks is still better even if it is, because you get twice the XP. Range is probably also better no matter what, because it generally allows you to attack from a completely safe position. Seems like that might be the promotion to get after those two, though.
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Oct 3, 2013 22:33
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SlightlyMadman posted:Is it more than a 100% bonus? If not, two attacks is still better, and arguably two attacks is still better even if it is, because you get twice the XP. Range is probably also better no matter what, because it generally allows you to attack from a completely safe position. It's obviously inferior, but it's available much earlier. That's why I say I only ever take it first if I absolutely need the firepower and can't wait for additional levelups.
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Oct 3, 2013 22:47
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poo poo, the new patch fixed the exploit where you get an AI to go to war against someone in 10 turns without committing. Huge diplomatic hit for trying that now, and the AI won't go to war.
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Oct 3, 2013 23:07
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I notice BNW is $21 on Steam right now, and intend to purchase it sometime in the not too distant future. However, I won't really have any time to play it for another month or so yet so I'm in no great hurry. Is it likely to be on sale for less later (Black Friday?) if I wait?
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Oct 3, 2013 23:13
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Well there's 2K sale stretching the whole weekend that promises new deals every day, so at the very least wait until the end of that to see if it goes down even a few more bucks.
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Oct 3, 2013 23:15
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Just a reminder, the Goon Steam Group game starts in 30 minutes and we need a sub, if anyone is interested in a game and willing to hop in chat (You don't have to be a group member to chat).
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Oct 3, 2013 23:34
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I played out my autocracy culture game, overall it was a really refreshing and fun game. Going with Byzantium and a super tourism religion worked perfectly. I had seven cities all with three religious buildings with +2 tourism each. By the time I got to ideologies I was already influential or very close to it with four of the seven AIs. Autocracy helped me go murder the super culture AI and strategic use of defensive pacts let me leverage Cult of Personality with the 2nd place culture AI. Everyone taking autocracy after my example also seemed to break up the hug box and start a bunch of wars so the last holdout ended up getting conquered by a third party. I barely even focused on culture itself. I only built the Sistine Chapel and captured the Parthenon and Uffizi. Finished Tradition and Piety and got consulates but only opened Rationalism and Aesthetics. Still managed to win before the first diplomatic victory vote though. Plus, check out this UU synergy! How often do you get to see that? (outside Atilla I mean) 
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Oct 4, 2013 00:45
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I find myself drawn to the -8 gold per turn in your screenshot. Not to call you out or anything, because that same thing happens to me whenever I try to field an army of that size in that era. How did you deal with that?
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Oct 4, 2013 00:52
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I think I just built another sea trade route, only had one up at the time of that shot. Also I want to say one of the Dromons ended up sinking and I lost a melee unit. It's also important not to forget to set up city connections as soon as they will be profitable. e; also, ~~Tithe~~ Fledgling Gulps fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Oct 4, 2013 |
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Oct 4, 2013 01:08
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Pillage gold, and teching and building more trade routes. Besides, it's not gold that wins the game, it's production. That's why Venice, despite the absurd gpt it can make, will never do well in MP because it simply lacks production. One micro trick I like to use to set up city connections: don't simply build a road from one city to another. On normal speed, a road takes 3 turns to build, and only gets completed (exerts its effect and costs maintenance) on the final turn. Therefore, what I like to do is, along the entire length of the road, put 2 turns into each tile, and only when the entire length of it has 2 turns into them, only then do actually complete them. It's a way of saving gold until the road actually forms a city connection. Note that I won't use this for rough terrain, because I'd rather save the worker-turns and finish those tiles asap.
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Oct 4, 2013 01:12
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