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I wanted to illustrate the silliness of that 'Europe of nations' map, specifically the idea that a Sami state would be viable as a Sami state within those borders, but I may have gone a bit overboard. I basically took the states with the highest proportion of Native Americans, added most of Canada, then cut out the bits that had far too many non-Native Americans until Native Americans made up as big a proportion of the total population as the Sami do in that Sami state. (5) Following that, I carved out a few smaller Native American states, (2,10,15,18,19,25,26), as well as of course Hawaii, using the same principles. Then I figured I might as well add some African-American homelands, so I took all the African-American majority counties, plus a few with just a significant majority to make the states more viable, creating a few small African-American states. (9,17,21,23). Québec got a similar treatment, and then I split the current US up a bit since otherwise those other new states looked really out of place.  I have a sneaking suspicion that you would have a really hard time getting this to work, even if a few of the states might be perfectly happy with the situation.
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Oct 6, 2013 17:01
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Grand Fromage posted:Do you mean one specific kind of Bavarian is dominant across Bavaria, or Bavarian is dominant in Germany? Bavarian is dominant in Bavaria is what I meant. But besides Bavarian there is also swabian/alemannic and franconian dialects. As for Austrian, yeah it can be pretty similar. After all the different Austrian varieties (except for Vorarlberg and parts of Tyrol) all belong to the Austro-Bavarian group of dialects, same as the Bavarian varieties.
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Oct 6, 2013 17:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I wanted to illustrate the silliness of that 'Europe of nations' map, specifically the idea that a Sami state would be viable as a Sami state within those borders, but I may have gone a bit overboard. I basically took the states with the highest proportion of Native Americans, added most of Canada, then cut out the bits that had far too many non-Native Americans until Native Americans made up as big a proportion of the total population as the Sami do in that Sami state. (5) Following that, I carved out a few smaller Native American states, (2,10,15,18,19,25,26), as well as of course Hawaii, using the same principles. No Cascadia? 
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Oct 6, 2013 17:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I wanted to illustrate the silliness of that 'Europe of nations' map, specifically the idea that a Sami state would be viable as a Sami state within those borders, but I may have gone a bit overboard. I basically took the states with the highest proportion of Native Americans, added most of Canada, then cut out the bits that had far too many non-Native Americans until Native Americans made up as big a proportion of the total population as the Sami do in that Sami state. (5) Following that, I carved out a few smaller Native American states, (2,10,15,18,19,25,26), as well as of course Hawaii, using the same principles. Yeah putting most of Mississippi in the Republic of New Afrika would probably be a recipe for disaster in the backwoods; although it would achieve a longtime ambition of the Mayor of one of your proposed RNA's major cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokwe_Lumumba)
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Oct 6, 2013 17:24
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Kurtofan posted:No Cascadia?  oldswitcheroo posted:Yeah putting most of Mississippi in the Republic of New Afrika would probably be a recipe for disaster in the backwoods; although it would achieve a longtime ambition of the Mayor of one of your proposed RNA's major cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokwe_Lumumba)
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Oct 6, 2013 17:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Cascadia doesn't have much to do with giving back a sensible plot of land to the native inhabitants of the continent, does it? Some areas are normal suburban sprawl type strip mall places that you'll see everywhere. The bulk of RNA is the Delta which yeah is insanely impoverished. I'm just imagining the reactions when you tell East MS that they're part of a black country now. That would confirm every single fear most of them have ever had. I've never been clear what the exact goals of RNA were, but I from what I understand it involved a particular interpretation of the "forty acres and a mule" thing. Sort of like "if we all get 40 acres and there are this many of us we should get X amount of land and lets just put it all here."
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Oct 6, 2013 18:06
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
 Its one thing to propose an independent native american homeland but its quite another to balkanize north america and heighten the chances of nukes flying.
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Oct 6, 2013 18:12
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A Buttery Pastry posted:My immediate guess would be that the Arab conquests had a similar effect as the Turkic conquest of Anatolia, and the Hungarian one on what would become Hungary. The modern day Turks and Hungarians are basically 90% the pre-conquest population genetically, with a small genetic influence from the conquerors, but linguistically they both managed to convert the native population. As Phlegmish points out, it seems pretty drat unlikely that a semi-nomadic tribal society would be able to genetically dominate such densely populated societies. This isn't completely true. Hungary is pretty much the last example of a major tribal migration/displacement, with the Maygars forcing out the Avar's completely (they migrated to Austria and Croatia). The small remaining preexisting population became a special class in the country in charge of guarding the board. Hungary is weird.
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Oct 6, 2013 19:03
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oldswitcheroo posted:Some areas are normal suburban sprawl type strip mall places that you'll see everywhere. The bulk of RNA is the Delta which yeah is insanely impoverished. I'm just imagining the reactions when you tell East MS that they're part of a black country now. That would confirm every single fear most of them have ever had.  oldswitcheroo posted:I've never been clear what the exact goals of RNA were, but I from what I understand it involved a particular interpretation of the "forty acres and a mule" thing. Sort of like "if we all get 40 acres and there are this many of us we should get X amount of land and lets just put it all here." Lawman 0 posted:
 sbaldrick posted:This isn't completely true. Hungary is pretty much the last example of a major tribal migration/displacement, with the Maygars forcing out the Avar's completely (they migrated to Austria and Croatia). The small remaining preexisting population became a special class in the country in charge of guarding the board. Fake edit: I think I found the source where I got the idea in the first place, but it has an additional hypothesis for the high levels of European genetic material in the Hungarian population; that the invading Magyars had already intermixed with European populations to the east before they settled in Hungary. That explanation does make sense as well, and would allow a more steady process of assimilation than the other one. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n5/pdf/5200468a.pdf
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Oct 6, 2013 20:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:When you say the Magyars forced out the Avars, are you working from the assumption that the area was solely populated by Avars? I was of the impression that the Avars had, just like many other tribes in Europe, positioned themselves as the ruling class on top of a mixed population of who-knows-what. Then when the Avars were kicked out, the Magyars just took their place, and eventually assimilated the various peoples that lived in the region. I'm bases it on the first person accounts (which can be unreliable I know)about how the Magyars operated in Europe. They where pretty much the Mongols of the early Middle Ages without the whole wanting tribute thing. There was however a whole lot of intermarriage between them and who we would now consider Poles,Czechs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Romanians and pretty much everyone that lived in Eastern Europe before they where finally forced to settle.
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Oct 6, 2013 21:41
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bronin posted:Language chat is the best chat. I live on the eastern border of the "Bezirk Schwaben" in Bavaria. We speak Allgäuerisch which is swabian and or alemannic depending on where in the Allgäu you are. Now when I drive a few kilometers east the dialect completely changes to Bavarian which is weird and awesome at the same time. I grew up in the same situation, only the other way round: when I cross the Lech bridge into Augsburg, the change in speech is significant, especially when talking to the elderly. At least to the east of Augsburg it isn't the "standard" variety of Bavarian that I grew up in, though; my dialect is Bavarian with sort of a Swabian cadence and lots and lots of "sch's" (which is a trademark of Alemannic dialects) to the extent that speakers of, say, Lower Bavaria think I'm from Swabia, whereas Swabians can tell immediately I'm not one of them. It's kind of annoying sometimes My father grew up in a village three km away from where my mother was born; she told me that when they started dating, she simply wasn't able to understand parts of what my great-grandmother said. Three kilometers! While my mother speaks the kind of Bavarian I described above, the "Lechrain" dialect bronin mentioned begins in my father's village which led to those difficulties. Now that I live in Vienna, people generally don't know what the gently caress, even though my home town and Vienna supposedly belong to the same dialect group (Middle Bavarian). It seems that linguistically speaking, I just can't catch a break  fake edit: I should mention that during the last couple decades, many of these differences I mentioned have vanished or will vanish in time. people are much more mobile generally speaking, and somebody spending his entire life in the same village has grown rather rare. Standardized education and mass media propagate a specific manner of speech, and easy modes of transport mean that people flock to specific urban centres for work and entertainment. Research has shown that the old dialects are mostly on their way out, instead to be replaced by so-called "regiolects" which form around aforementioned urban centres and will be only slightly informed by the old rural dialects. It seems that even in a hundred years bronin and I would sound markedly different from somebody from northern Germany, but the differences will be smaller and especially between us both would be almost non-existent (which right now I'm sure they aren't). And to post a map:  I know that at least in Colorado there still exist some Spanish-speaking communities datinge back to colonial times, but are there others elsewhere?
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Oct 6, 2013 22:42
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System Metternich posted:I know that at least in Colorado there still exist some Spanish-speaking communities datinge back to colonial times, but are there others elsewhere? There are a few in Texas (the old joke is that the people never moved, just the border did) but all up and down the Western US you get a lot of hispanic people. I haven't really seen the rural areas on that map much (except New Mexico but that was in the Navajo area) but definitely in the urban areas the vast majority of minorities are Hispanics (until you get to like North California and the Chinese/Asian area I guess).
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Oct 7, 2013 01:41
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System Metternich posted:
The Colorado communities are probably only a part of the Hispanic community absorbed into the United States after the Mexican-American War. The larger communities were in Texas, what is now New Mexico, and California, specifically along the coast. Most of the area would have been Native Americans who didn't identify with Hispanic culture. computer parts posted:There are a few in Texas (the old joke is that the people never moved, just the border did) but all up and down the Western US you get a lot of hispanic people. This isn't really a joke so as much as it's something that really happened. It's also the basis for my username, my 15 year old self thought that was clever.
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Oct 7, 2013 05:12
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I found this language map of the Americas on wikipedia: ...But it seems to have some strange ideas about much of Northern CA, and parts of Nevada and Oregon. The languages shown there are a mix of English and "Austronesian", despite the fact that there are way more Spanish speakers in that area than there are of Austronesian languages. Sure, there are plenty of Filipinos in that area, but there are a lot more Hispanic people. computer parts posted:There are a few in Texas (the old joke is that the people never moved, just the border did) but all up and down the Western US you get a lot of hispanic people. I haven't really seen the rural areas on that map much (except New Mexico but that was in the Navajo area) but definitely in the urban areas the vast majority of minorities are Hispanics (until you get to like North California and the Chinese/Asian area I guess). No, the largest minority group in Northern California is also Hispanic, mainly Mexicans...the state borders Mexico, used to be a part of Mexico and Spain, and the first non-native settlers in Nor Cal were Spanish and Mexican, so it makes sense. The next three largest Hispanic groups in Nor Cal are Salvadoran, Nicaraguan, and Guatemalan, though Mexicans outnumber all other combined Hispanic groups by far. After Hispanics/Latinos comes Asians, with the largest group being Chinese. The next three largest Asian groups are Filipino, Indian, and Vietnamese, though the Chinese don't outnumber them all like Mexicans outnumber other Hispanics. The Bay Area does have the largest proportion of Asians of any metropolitan area outside of Honolulu, but they're still outnumbered by Hispanic people (I assume by "chinese/asian area", you were referring mainly to the Bay Area?). Northern CA also has one of the largest populations of black people in the western united states (with sizable concentrations--by western standards--in Oakland, San Francisco, Sacramento, Stockton, and some suburbs), though the west overall, including Nor Cal, has fewer black people than the rest of the nation. Northern California also has sizable populations of Pacific Islanders (Samoans, Tongans, etc) and native Americans, but like most other parts of the US they make up a statistically insignificant fraction of the population (under 2% each).
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Oct 7, 2013 05:25
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System Metternich posted:I know that at least in Colorado there still exist some Spanish-speaking communities datinge back to colonial times, but are there others elsewhere? You find that in New Mexico, too. When I lived in distant rural Northern New Mexico, 100 miles north of Santa Fe, the Spanish-speaking people up there tended to prefer to be called Spanish, rather than Mexican. Edit: Looking at that language map of the Americas, a couple of notes... one, interesting how Spanish bleeds into Brazil but no Portuguese seems to bleed into the surrounding countries, and two, what's that mix at the north end of Suriname? I can't figure it out from the key. Golbez fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 07:22
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It could be anything. Suriname is extremely diverse with a crazy mixture of languages and creoles all floating around. I wrote a terrible paper about it in undergrad. They have a sizable population descended from subcontinent contract workers that a dialect of Hindustani is spoken there.
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Oct 7, 2013 07:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I wanted to illustrate the silliness of that 'Europe of nations' map, specifically the idea that a Sami state would be viable as a Sami state within those borders, but I may have gone a bit overboard. I basically took the states with the highest proportion of Native Americans, added most of Canada, then cut out the bits that had far too many non-Native Americans until Native Americans made up as big a proportion of the total population as the Sami do in that Sami state. (5) Following that, I carved out a few smaller Native American states, (2,10,15,18,19,25,26), as well as of course Hawaii, using the same principles.
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Oct 7, 2013 07:54
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Do you guys not read posts or what?
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Oct 7, 2013 08:25
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Golbez posted:Edit: Looking at that language map of the Americas, a couple of notes... one, interesting how Spanish bleeds into Brazil but no Portuguese seems to bleed into the surrounding countries, and two, what's that mix at the north end of Suriname? I can't figure it out from the key. I'm almost certain that some Portuguese is spoken in border areas of Paraguay. From the Wikipedia article on Brasiguayos: quote:Brasiguayo (Spanish) or brasiguaio (Portuguese) is a term referring to Brazilian migrants in Paraguay and their descendants. They typically live in the Southeastern Paraguayan departments of Canindeyú and Alto Paraná, which border with Brazil. Most emigrated from Brazil by the 1960s. They are often accused of imposing on the culture, language and currency of Paraguay. In total they make up 455,000 Brasiguayans as of 2001, or about one-tenth of Paraguay's population Historically, the Portuguese/Brazilians have always expanded at the expense of neighboring Spanish-speaking territories, so the conclusion that Spanish 'bleeds into' Brazil is as misleading as saying that Spanish is expanding into North America based on its presence in the Southwest. Brazil started out in 1534 with this theoretical division into captaincies, even more ridiculous-looking than the colonial United States' elongated territories: 
Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 10:44 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 10:41
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Lycus posted:It's like they looked at the South and said, "Oh, you guys are always complaining about 'states' rights', okay we'll just break you up into lots of weak little countries." If anything they need to be kept in the Union, but jammed up into one big state so that they're deprived of senatorial representation.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:03
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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The European nationality maps made me curious to see how much of Sapmi actually has a Sami majority. As far as I can tell, only the red area on this map is majority Sami. It has a population of about 16,000. On a similar note. The largest contiguous area of the US that is majority Hispanic. 
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Oct 7, 2013 21:21
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Mu Cow posted:On a similar note. The largest contiguous area of the US that is majority Hispanic.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:32
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Mu Cow posted:On a similar note. The largest contiguous area of the US that is majority Hispanic. Is that majority Hispanic or plurality hispanic? I see Ventura county listed as 40% Hispanic.
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Oct 7, 2013 23:19
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Phlegmish posted:I'm almost certain that some Portuguese is spoken in border areas of Paraguay. From the Wikipedia article on Brasiguayos: Hah, the Tordesilhas treaty and its arbritary line.  It might look that Portugal got the short end of the stick but at the time they thought they were getting a shitload of territory more (and it's actually more accessible and easier to reach than what Spain got.
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Oct 8, 2013 00:46
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To be fair they did end up with nearly all of the East Indies. Portugal did pretty well for its self historically, all things considered.
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Oct 8, 2013 01:22
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Emanuel Collective posted:Thanks. I was mostly hoping to see a sea of blue start chipping away at Texas but I guess I'll have to wait for the next map. The whole "red" vs "green" debate creeps up a lot but how about a map where we can actually see the loving distinctions? Edit: Obligatory D&D: DIE ABLEIST SCUM! It means "THE ABLEIST SCUM" in German. Edit 2: Also, my struggle is the same as the true Nubian Egyptians. Seeking recognition because we are all the same. And by that I mean, Ancient Egypt was 100% black. Their use of Greywacke is proof. Shbobdb fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 02:30
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Koramei posted:To be fair they did end up with nearly all of the East Indies. I'm also doing well as them in my current Ironman game of EUIV. Highest trade income in the world 
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Oct 8, 2013 03:11
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Shbobdb posted:The whole "red" vs "green" debate creeps up a lot but how about a map where we can actually see the loving distinctions? My spatial statistics textbook has a couple of chapters on thematic mapping (ie like that map) and it touches on which colors are considered acceptable. They're not necessarily right and wrong but more like commonly understood. However, some products like ESRI definitely pushes its agenda on The True Color Schemes of Mapping.
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Oct 8, 2013 03:18
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Phlegmish posted:I'm also doing well as them in my current Ironman game of EUIV. Highest trade income in the world Man you don't want me to post the clusterfucky alt history map that is going on my EUIV game right now. (North Africa and America occupied by Aztecs, Europe by the resurgent romans and South Africa, America and Oceania by the my super Inca)
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Oct 8, 2013 04:02
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Plutonis posted:Man you don't want me to post the clusterfucky alt history map that is going on my EUIV game right now. (North Africa and America occupied by Aztecs, Europe by the resurgent romans and South Africa, America and Oceania by the my super Inca) Do the Aztecs/other Native Americans actually have a chance in succeeding like that in EUIV, or was it just you being the Inca?
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Oct 8, 2013 04:30
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Farecoal posted:Do the Aztecs/other Native Americans actually have a chance in succeeding like that in EUIV, or was it just you being the Inca? I think if you convert a save from CK2 that has Sunset Invasions active, the Incas and the Aztecs are buffed up to about European levels. I think that happens even if you don't get invaded in your CK2 game.
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Oct 8, 2013 04:33
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Farecoal posted:Do the Aztecs/other Native Americans actually have a chance in succeeding like that in EUIV, or was it just you being the Inca? Also it's entirely possible for the player to pull poo poo like that. The computer would never ever manage it, mostly because they're hardcoded not to.
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Oct 8, 2013 05:49
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It wouldn't be too hard to get the EUIV New World AI perform a lot better in-game, but it wouldn't make awesome pan-American native empires without human intervention. Indigenous American countries are represented in the eastern US, the Valley of Mexico region, and the Andes, but they suffer a number of problems – bad geopolitical position at game start, lousy religious and government bonuses, and especially a "tech group" that makes all kinds of advancement very difficult. The developers' line is that history couldn't have gone that differently by 1444. However, the massive collapse of American societies from imported disease is largely ignored, weird.
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Oct 8, 2013 06:02
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:It wouldn't be too hard to get the EUIV New World AI perform a lot better in-game, but it wouldn't make awesome pan-American native empires without human intervention. Indigenous American countries are represented in the eastern US, the Valley of Mexico region, and the Andes, but they suffer a number of problems – bad geopolitical position at game start, lousy religious and government bonuses, and especially a "tech group" that makes all kinds of advancement very difficult. The developers' line is that history couldn't have gone that differently by 1444. However, the massive collapse of American societies from imported disease is largely ignored, weird. I don't think the new world part of the game can be viewed as a realistic simulation. It's mainly there to provide just enough of a stumbling block that it's hard for any one european nation to control all of America, or an ultimate hard mode for dedicated players.
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Oct 8, 2013 06:05
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:It wouldn't be too hard to get the EUIV New World AI perform a lot better in-game, but it wouldn't make awesome pan-American native empires without human intervention. Indigenous American countries are represented in the eastern US, the Valley of Mexico region, and the Andes, but they suffer a number of problems – bad geopolitical position at game start, lousy religious and government bonuses, and especially a "tech group" that makes all kinds of advancement very difficult. The developers' line is that history couldn't have gone that differently by 1444. However, the massive collapse of American societies from imported disease is largely ignored, weird. I knew about the penalties - longtime Paradox player here - but I was wondering if they'd changed that for EUIV. Oh well
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Oct 8, 2013 06:09
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The penalties are a lot smaller now due to the gameplay mechanics changes. New World nations are still essentially speed bumps and the game still models the New World as already having the post-disease collapse population. CK2 with Sunset Invasion DLC then running the save game converter DLC to EU4 is the best though.
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Oct 8, 2013 06:12
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Farecoal posted:I knew about the penalties - longtime Paradox player here - but I was wondering if they'd changed that for EUIV. Oh well It's totally possible for the AI to pull off Westernization in EU4: in my current Songhai game Creek Westernized and converted to Protestantism. It hasn't helped them dramatically, but they're chillin' unmolested next to British and French colonies, getting rich off of leeched trade income.
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Oct 8, 2013 06:13
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Farecoal posted:I knew about the penalties - longtime Paradox player here - but I was wondering if they'd changed that for EUIV. Oh well Identical to EU3. Nothing about the setup has changed. Patter Song posted:It's totally possible for the AI to pull off Westernization in EU4: in my current Songhai game Creek Westernized and converted to Protestantism. It hasn't helped them dramatically, but they're chillin' unmolested next to British and French colonies, getting rich off of leeched trade income. I think that might be a 1.2 thing. I've also seen the Europeans completely ignore pagan New Worlders, despite having the proper CB against a weak nation with no allies, who they completely surround.  None of them have Westernized either, which I think is the AIs understandable hesitancy to ever push to +3 stability. The few who start probably get lucky with events.Also, this is a whole lot of Paradox talk for a D&D thread. We should probably stop.
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Oct 8, 2013 07:22
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Mu Cow posted:The European nationality maps made me curious to see how much of Sapmi actually has a Sami majority. As far as I can tell, only the red area on this map is majority Sami. It has a population of about 16,000. This other map he made corresponds a lot more closely even if it's not quite the same.  I think his maps are useful if you use them in conjunction with maps of existing states as a way to show the range of European minority peoples, if not the density or their hypothetical viability as independent states.
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Oct 8, 2013 08:30
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I might as well ask here: why has Czech culture and language remained such a persistent island when it's been constantly surrounded and influenced by the (much bigger and traditionally more influential) German culture and language?
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Oct 8, 2013 08:37
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