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Snowdens Secret posted:Saying "ABS takes longer to stop than threshold braking" is silly since the vast, vast majority of real world drivers on real world roads lack the capability to do threshold braking at all, let alone do it to the degree they're going to beat a modern computer. You're also using all available grip to stop, whereas an ABS system is designed to allow you to still have enough grip to also turn your vehicle to avoid obstacles. Before I took classes at a racing school when I was a teenager, I thought locking em up was the way to stop fastest (that's how it is on TV, right?  ) and made my tires look like this a couple times:
Das Volk fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 07:35
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Am I imagining things or am I correct in remembering that most TC systems actually apply brakes rather than releasing the throttle? Also, doesn't your drivetrain setup have a LOT to do with what your reaction to a skid should be? If you lose the rear end end in an RWD vehicle, shouldn't it be out of the question to give it gas?
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Oct 8, 2013 07:39
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I've hit 'ice mode' in my E30 on the race track and it's scary as gently caress when you're in a hard braking zone and the ABS computer thinks you're sliding when you hit some rough pavement.. suddenly it PULLS ALL BRAKING POWER, OH gently caress I pulled my ABS relay in the pits after that one. That kind of ABS doesn't belong on a track. I have no experience with newer systems on the race track, but it probably all comes down to the individual system and how well it's programmed. Which, as an embedded systems programmer, scares me.
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Oct 8, 2013 08:16
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The first car I had with ABS and stability control was my 05 RX8 and I about poo poo my self the fist time I went to play around on a wet parking lot and the stability control went NOPE to the idea of sticking the rear out. Very weird feeling having the car go from sliding to sudden dead stop with out touching the brake. ABS did fine braking dry and wet but snow was an big issue do to summer tires having no traction in the white stuff. It stayed parked most of the winter cause it was much cheaper to drive my beater truck than buying 18" snows or a second set of wheels and tiers. This was at a big car show in town and it was the only thing I snaped a pic of, my 11 month old wasnt having it at the time.   Its so awesome yet so awful... but would be so much fun.
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Oct 8, 2013 08:52
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There's American car shows where rat rods aren't common? I saw them all the time in SC and a few in NY.
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Oct 8, 2013 11:57
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Farmdizzle posted:Also, doesn't your drivetrain setup have a LOT to do with what your reaction to a skid should be? If you lose the rear end end in an RWD vehicle, shouldn't it be out of the question to give it gas? It matters a whole lot. In a FWD car, if you're driving hard and start to understeer, you should start releasing the gas pedal transfer weight to the front wheels, giving them more grip. It also reduces the engine power that they have to deal with. If you release the gas pedal completely and suddenly, you may go into lift-off oversteer. On the other hand, if you start to oversteer (unlikely unless you deliberately provoke it, or you have lovely rear tires), according to driver's ed you should press the clutch and steer into the skid. You can keep on the gas instead and still steer into the skid, but only if you're ready to catch the back end when it comes back around. In a RWD car, if you're driving hard and start to understeer, you can release the gas pedal slightly like with FWD. If you lift off completely, you're likely to get lift-off oversteer and spin out. Or you can keep on the gas, turn understeer into oversteer, countersteer into the skid while keeping it steady with the throttle to catch it as a kick-rear end powerslide. Needless to say, this takes practice. If you start oversteering in a RWD car, you should never ever release the gas completely, you'll spin the gently caress out, especially if you're driving something thats mid- or rear-engined. Keep on the gas and countersteer. Corrections are welcome. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 12:59
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Left-foot braking can be very useful for balancing out understeer on FWD cars, too, but it's more of a "planned" approach than a "reactive" one. As long as people understand the theory of turning into the slide, and can wind on lock fast enough (I know a couple of people whose only steering technique is dangerously slow, hand-shuffling nonsense that they were taught as learners), all that's needed is a good few hours titting about in a snowy carpark to get a feel for it all. If a car starting to slide is not an alien feeling to you, that's probably half the battle.
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Oct 8, 2013 13:27
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I will say that I understand the purpose of stability control (or whatever each manufacturer calls it) for the average driver who has no idea how to recover/control a spin. Last time we got decent snow I went to a huge parking lot and intentionally threw my car sideways and it was truly impressive how quickly it straightened out on it's own (with snow tires, but still).
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Oct 8, 2013 15:50
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So the thing to take away from the last few pages is that we're all Sebastian Loeb in AI. Not like those other plebs who need DSTC and ABS and all that other poo poo, amiright guys? I guess non of you use your seatbelts either, I mean it's not like you're gonna be in a wreck like those soccer moms who don't even know how to do a proper scandinavian flick.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:09
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Stability control has saved my rear end a couple of times on roads with patches of black ice. Suddenly finding out you have a whole lot less grip than you anticipated is not fun at all, and I wasn't even going particularly fast, below the speed limit. That was in the Panda, with it's typical city car short wheelbase. The Peugeot doesn't have stability control, but I have yet to be in a situation where I felt it would have been nice to have. I chalk that up to a longer wheelbase, more competent suspension setup and a couple of years more experience under my belt. It would be nice to have, though. You can't anticipate everything. ABS is amazing these days, I honestly wish my bikes had it as well. Traction control can go cry in a corner, I can finesse the clutch and gas pedal perfectly fine by myself, and traction control really feels like it was made for gorillas with a binary understanding of the gas pedal.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:20
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I really like the ASC on my E36 M3 for daily driving. It rarely goes into effect in a straight line except to keep me from doing burnouts, which preserves the life of my tires, and is actually really useful on very wet days.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:27
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People who disable ABS typically aren't as good drivers as they think they are. RE ABS Braking: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html quote:I had the good fortune to fly to Germany on a business trip, seated next to a Chrysler brake engineer. This engineer had with him a plot of braking force vs pedal force for a number of Chrysler cars.
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Oct 8, 2013 17:43
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I really hated the feel of that ASC system on my Z3M Coupe, but it did work. It's a lovely system compared to DSC.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:01
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This whole derail about ABS personifies the title of this thread. *real brake problems* 
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Oct 8, 2013 18:07
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The only way that would be more awful would be if it was powder coat instead of paint on the rotor. I bet it made a hell of a stink for a few miles but after that probably still works fine.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:12
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IOwnCalculus posted:The only way that would be more awful would be if it was powder coat instead of paint on the rotor. I bet it made a hell of a stink for a few miles but after that probably still works fine. Well, assuming they didn't hit the brakes pulling out of their driveway and slide into the house across the street.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:13
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If ABS and traction control are getting in the way of your driving on a regular basis, ya'll need some better cars with ABS/TC systems that weren't designed in 1985. Or stop driving on the street at 10/10. Also good tires make a world of difference in keeping the nanny systems in check. I can drive my E46 pretty hard before the DSC/TC starts "interfering", and I never know the ABS is even there until the rare occasion that I'm glad I had it (e.g. a panic stop in the rain). The ABS doesn't engage until you really are locking the wheels, it will let you brake very nearly on the threshold without interference. Plus if you want to start getting the rear end out, the DSC/TC can be turned down or even completely off at the touch of a button. Or if you do feel that it is misbehaving, like in snow which throws it for a loop. Or on the track. Even the ABS in my old NA Miata, a vastly less sophisticated system, was pretty non-intrusive on the street. It would activate more often than in the E46, but I also partially attribute that to the Miata being on skinnier tires that weren't as sticky. Modern performance ABS and TC systems are better and faster than 99%+ of human drivers in almost all conditions. They've got computers monitoring the speed and slip of each individual wheel tens/hundreds of times per second and have the ability to react in milliseconds to each wheel individually. Even if there is a very small gap that a perfect human driver could beat the ABS/TC under perfect conditions, that gap has shrunk to almost nothing and continues to shrink. It's very, very hard to consistently beat a modern ABS system even in a controlled environment, let alone on the street. VVVVVV Yeah, the ABS and TC systems cropping up on modern bikes is very impressive as well. I kind of wish my Ninja 650 had at least ABS. If/when I upgrade bikes it will probably have ABS. It certainly rains enough around here to justify it. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 18:19
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KozmoNaut posted:ABS is amazing these days, I honestly wish my bikes had it as well. I'm pretty happy with it on my bike. If I was at a track I could see wanting more brake feel* but I'm riding on the street in an uncontrolled environment and sometimes have to unexpectedly stop right the gently caress now because of some inattentive chucklefuck. Typically I get the braking force correct and the abs doesn't kick in but there have been a couple times where I got just a bit too much lever and abs was the difference between going down and riding off a bit irritated. *I'm assuming this based on what I've read about the negative things people have said of BMW's motorcycle abs. I don't have much experience riding without it. Galler fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 18:40
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Yeah to be honest the ABS/TCS/VSC on my 2011 vette are pretty unobtrusive. It's also cool to see the active handling very effectively pull the car back in line if you leave everything on. I had a trackday that was very very wet and was able to see all of the nannies do their thing. I was impressed by it for sure. It's silly to make blanket statements that all ABS or traction control systems are garbage because there is so much variation on how they are set up and how they intervene, especially if you've only been exposed to old tech.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:54
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To add to the ABS/TC discussion, I can say I'd much rather have every car have some sort of modern ABS system because as mentioned before not everyone is an F1 driver in terms of reaction time and driver ability. Not only because I'm not Sebastien Vettel, but I want at least reduced chance of any of the chucklefucks around New England slamming into me. I just had to buy a new car because of an accident this summer that totaled my E36. An idiot in a newer 5 series rear-ended me doing at least 20 in damp conditions because he wasn't paying attention to the traffic that had stopped to let people cross the street. Not that ABS would have helped this douche (there were no skid marks from his car to indicate hard braking, and he didn't have insurance  ), but if it can help some other hapless motorist in preventing an accident that takes out my car than I'm all for it. We need more crying flag smilies for some of the US states. New Hampshire in this case.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:13
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Holy poo poo make a thread for the ABS discussion and post terrible car stuff.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:18
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Courtesy of reddit: HIDs in fog lamps? Check Swirl marks out the rear end? Check Fuzzy dice? Check Pistol on the hood? Check
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Oct 8, 2013 19:25
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Paul Boz_ posted:This whole derail about ABS personifies the title of this thread. I like to think that as soon as they started moving, the paint all being stuck to itself, all ripped off at the same time and got wadded up between the pad and rotor causing a terrible stink/smoke combo leaving the (assumed) not so bright owner perplexed. Guinness posted:Courtesy of reddit: Those aren't swirl marks, that's class 
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Oct 8, 2013 19:32
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Guinness posted:Courtesy of reddit: Is it just me or do those fuzzy dice look like they were Photoshopped in?
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Oct 8, 2013 20:00
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Lexus stability control takes over the electric power steering and steers directly into the slide for you. You can be stabbing at the brake and sawing madly at the wheel and the vehicle will completely ignore you and calmly apply individual brakes and steer the car until it straightens and stabilises.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:23
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Kind of hard to see in the smaller pic(click to embiggen) but it appears someone spraypainted over the name badge then removed the letters leaving a weird-rear end negative. Why would you do this?
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Oct 8, 2013 20:25
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Guinness posted:Courtesy of reddit: I don't see what's wrong with gluing a pistol to the hood of your car. It's like something out of Death Race 2000. Kill-9 posted:Kind of hard to see in the smaller pic(click to embiggen) but it appears someone spraypainted over the name badge then removed the letters leaving a weird-rear end negative. Why would you do this? It looks like a "new" car. Maybe he wanted a cheap car that worked. Or he got suckered into a bad deal and is paying 70% interest on it. Jakcson fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 20:28
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Kill-9 posted:Kind of hard to see in the smaller pic(click to embiggen) but it appears someone spraypainted over the name badge then removed the letters leaving a weird-rear end negative. Why would you do this?
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Oct 8, 2013 20:28
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I apologize for starting this conversation on ABS and traction control by bringing it up (I originally just wanted to highlight that I haven't really encountered an adequate ABS system, even in newer vehicles), but seeing Slavvy's post:Slavvy posted:Lexus stability control takes over the electric power steering and steers directly into the slide for you. You can be stabbing at the brake and sawing madly at the wheel and the vehicle will completely ignore you and calmly apply individual brakes and steer the car until it straightens and stabilises. ...brings up a good question that needs to be answered, but I don't think will ever get an adequate one. How many driver aid's is too many driver aid's when dealing with cars that are not meant to just be boring appliance vehicles?
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Oct 8, 2013 20:30
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Kill-9 posted:Kind of hard to see in the smaller pic(click to embiggen) but it appears someone spraypainted over the name badge then removed the letters leaving a weird-rear end negative. Why would you do this? It's a Negative Infiniti. An Anti-Infiniti, if you will. Let me tell you, if this thing ever gets anywhere near a normal G37 or whatever you don't want to be anywhere nearby
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Oct 8, 2013 20:35
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The King of Swag posted:...brings up a good question that needs to be answered, but I don't think will ever get an adequate one. How many driver aid's is too many driver aid's when dealing with cars that are not meant to just be boring appliance vehicles? It would be interesting if certain cars eventually came with toggle switches to deactivate certain aids when their drivers felt they were unnecessary. I'm sure there would have to be plenty of warnings about how you would need to have health/car/life insurance, and any crimes committed while driving with aids disabled would be solely your fault. And you can't sue if you choose to disable the aids and something bad happens.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:38
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Kill-9 posted:Kind of hard to see in the smaller pic(click to embiggen) but it appears someone spraypainted over the name badge then removed the letters leaving a weird-rear end negative. Why would you do this? This could possibly be a Plastidip debacle? In theory you can overspray the poo poo out of Plasti and just peel/trim it off. Maybe he grabbed the wrong can?
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Oct 8, 2013 20:41
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The King of Swag posted:I apologize for starting this conversation on ABS and traction control by bringing it up (I originally just wanted to highlight that I haven't really encountered an adequate ABS system, even in newer vehicles), but seeing Slavvy's post: In the immortal words of Rick Deckard, [driver aids] are like any other machine, they're either a benefit or a hazard. If they're a benefit, it's not my problem.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:42
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Well I don't think it can actually decouple the steering wheel from the rack. I expect it's more like it gives you a "suggested" steering angle that you could overpower fairly easily. Having driven on snow with a toyota with stability control it's really a joy killer- it won't even come close to letting you throw the car in the a slide. Just beeps and the car is going straight again.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:43
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The King of Swag posted:...brings up a good question that needs to be answered, but I don't think will ever get an adequate one. How many driver aid's is too many driver aid's when dealing with cars that are not meant to just be boring appliance vehicles? You can answer this to some degree by looking at racing series. All of the top-end series have had to place strict rules restricting TC, mandating spec ECUs, etc because having the right driver aids make the car (or bike) unbeatable, in some degree independent of the driver. If automated driver aids are that much of an unfair advantage at the ultimate top end of human skill, you can bet they're a world of difference with the everyday mooks on public roads. This discussion is going on in the bike community, where a significant chunk of people also still unironically argue against ABS. The latest motorcycle electronic assistance systems are straight up voodoo magic, and while they're not and probably can never be at the level of automotive systems at preventing crashes, they bring capability to the average rider that people with years or decades of experience haven't attained. That's if you're talking about going fast. If you're just talking about a vehicle with character, that might go another way, but down that road lies pining for the purity of manual steering boxes and roll-down windows.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:47
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Slavvy posted:Lexus stability control takes over the electric power steering and steers directly into the slide for you. You can be stabbing at the brake and sawing madly at the wheel and the vehicle will completely ignore you and calmly apply individual brakes and steer the car until it straightens and stabilises. And then you hit the tree.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:47
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It's just a little dented, it still works... it still works
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Oct 8, 2013 20:49
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Jonny 290 posted:This could possibly be a Plastidip debacle? In theory you can overspray the poo poo out of Plasti and just peel/trim it off. Maybe he grabbed the wrong can? Maybe? A cow-orker pointed out that Infinitis have body color door handles. The wing isn't color matched either.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:58
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Jakcson posted:Imagine how awesome it would be to have a huge gas guzzler that takes up two parking spaces and every time you get out of your vehicle, you can look at the chrome and gaze upon your beauty. The convex surface allows the driver of such a vehicle to view their shriveled penis past their pannus for the first time in a decade. aventari posted:That kind of ABS doesn't belong on a track. I have no experience with newer systems on the race track, but it probably all comes down to the individual system and how well it's programmed. Which, as an embedded systems programmer, scares me. Agreed (and  embedded systems engineers!), but most of them are built by a few companies - Teves, Bosch, et al. So they end up building one unit and then tweaking the software for each particular chassis/drivetrain design.One case where it really, really does NOT help is offroad in soft soil, where wheels sliding is sometimes the only way you're going to stop in time. A friend of mine nearly went over a ledge backwards a few years back because he hadn't pulled the fuses for his ABS, and it freaked out when he stomped on the brakes and wouldn't let him lock the tires up. The next time, he had absolutely no problems with it disabled. Anyways. Here are some terrible things I saw on my commute and driving around by my parents place over the last few weeks. I have seen this tool on the mass pike several times.  Bro rims and a dumb lift. Oh hey, a chrome diff cover and plastidipped Ford emblem too.  This one's a gift that just keeps on giving.  I took the picture because of the dual goofy-angle stacks in the bed, plus the lopsided light bars, but I just noticed that he also has a big chrome tip on the sidepipe in front of the rear tire. How many exhaust outlets does a truck need? What else can you see, aside from the fact that my dumb camera decided to focus on the mud splatter on my windshield instead of the rest of the picture? kastein fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 21:32
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kastein posted:The convex surface allows the driver of such a vehicle to view their shriveled penis past their pannus for the first time in a decade. Panniculus 
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Oct 8, 2013 21:44
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