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Yeah, but it'll never be released. Someone (fan or company) making a new NOLF game would start a scramble to figure out who did own the rights and ability to send the C&D, and if we're super lucky they get the blessing to keep going, or the rights holders would absorb the work and finish it themselves, or more likely, seal it away in a vault where no sunlight could ever find it.
Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 21:04
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Well, the scrambling for rights would at least get people motivated to get off their asses and either get us the NOLF series on Steam or GoG or even a new installment in the franchise. It'd show them that there's a demand for the game and a fanbase that would potentially buy it. The fan game isn't the point of that hypothetical scenario, it's getting the rights holders to give enough of a poo poo to quit dicking around and give us more NOLF. I mean, personally I still have my original discs of the games and can play them whenever, some people never had that chance, lost their discs, whatever.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:09
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So you're saying that we should make a zero-effort NOLF fan mod to provoke a legal reaction? Because that's not a bad idea.
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Oct 7, 2013 21:18
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You could probably provoke the same reaction with much less effort by putting a thinstall of NOLF on home of the underdogs (is that even still a thing?).
Irish Taxi Driver fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 21:22
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Gears of War always came off as a hugely simplified ripoff of Rogue Trooper to me, which was a great fun game based on a great fun 2000AD franchise that got absolutely 0 credit from anyone anywhere.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:31
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As someone who put a lot of hours into the Gears series excluding the most recent entry, the thread's observations about the campaigns are mostly accurate. That said, multiplayer is a different beast entirely. Human enemies will readily flank you no matter how bad it makes you feel, and the combat is only slower when fighting at mid-range with rifles - In close-quarters combat death is a single shotgun blast away, and at a distance you're sniper or rocket fodder. This set it apart from most other console shooters dominating the market at the time, because it led to an emphasis on positioning, precise aim, and dare I even say - Teamwork. Naturally People Can Fly completely missed the point with GoW:Judgment and did their best to remove all the unique aspects from the series, making it feel like a jankier version of the third-person gameplay mode that Modern Warfare 2 had. But hey! People Can Fly suck and make bad games.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:43
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Gears of War was pretty much bereft of any creativity whatsoever. The only memorable aspect of the game is how insurmountably tedious and un-fun the combat was. I mean, I can't think of any mainstream, "normal" shooter that had more offensively bad combat and level design. Also, the cutscenes were stupidly melodramatic considering all of the main characters were males that were roided up to be the size of houses.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:43
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Geight posted:Naturally People Can Fly completely missed the point with GoW:Judgment and did their best to remove all the unique aspects from the series, making it feel like a jankier version of the third-person gameplay mode that Modern Warfare 2 had. But hey! People Can Fly suck and make bad games. Post-Painkiller I agree. Pre-Painkiller, lets take this fight outside.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:54
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I'm not gonna hate on Painkiller, although it does grind my gears a bit when people suggest it to me when I pine for a modern-day DooM. It's very clear that the dudes who made Painkiller didn't stay on with them once they got bought up by Epic, though.
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Oct 7, 2013 22:59
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Geight posted:I'm not gonna hate on Painkiller, although it does grind my gears a bit when people suggest it to me when I pine for a modern-day DooM. It's very clear that the dudes who made Painkiller didn't stay on with them once they got bought up by Epic, though. Its a modern doom in the sense that your agility is your strength rather than your healthpool and armor. Otherwise its a linear arena shooter that has fun combat, fun enemies, and great guns.
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Oct 7, 2013 23:01
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People Can Fly's talent went in all kinds of directions after the buyout. Apparently some of the Bulletstorm crew ended up at Flying Wild Hog, which explains a lot of the cooler aspects of Shadow Warrior.
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Oct 7, 2013 23:01
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It shows because Shadow Warrior feels like what Hard Reset wanted to be. And is easy to see the combo rewards from bulletstorm, lack of need to jump (still has a jump button!), kick and the silly humor. I'm slowly playing it and it feels more and more like Bulletstorm fortunately.
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Oct 7, 2013 23:14
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Bulletstorm was great but really hamstrung by its modern fps trappings. Too many cutscenes, too many walk and talk sections. The writing was funny, but it should've been done on the fly more while you were fighting rather than making you stop and do something non-combatty every 2 minutes. I could've forgiven that stuff though if they'd just had more combat sections overall. Too many times you ended up walking through a really nicely crafted arena-looking area, only to have no enemies appear, then the next enemy section would be in a drat corridor somewhere. It feels to me like those places were intended to be combat areas, but console hardware limitations forced them to make the combat areas smaller and with fewer enemies.
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Oct 7, 2013 23:59
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Holy poo poo I just decided to finally play Doom for the first time. I know I'm 20 years late on that but drat this game owns.
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Oct 8, 2013 13:04
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M.Ciaster posted:Holy poo poo I just decided to finally play Doom for the first time. I know I'm 20 years late on that but drat this game owns. Are you using a sourceport? First play through vanilla doom Knee Deep In The Dead all the way through with no mods. Use something like gzdoom so it runs all nice and fast. Then download all the wads in the world and go insane.  There's SOOOO much doom waiting for you.Also have you played Dark Forces, Heretic, Chex Quest, Strife, etc? Play those too. Amazing.
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Oct 8, 2013 15:55
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Doom through a sourceport with freelook enabled and autoaim disabled is a transcendant experience.
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Oct 8, 2013 16:05
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DAIKATANA EPISODE 3: NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO MERCY Last time on Daikatana: Hiro disrupted the harmony of post-racial ancient greece by being japanese and from the future, got a hammer stuck to his foot, then dived headfirst into Medusa's mysterious green portal. Now he wakes upon the snowy shores of ALSO ANCIENT NORWAY. And there's only one thing blocking him from getting to the castle that he needs to go to for some unspecified reason: The bridge is out. So now he has to take a detour through a village whose residents all got so ripped doing ancient norwegian steroids that their shirts and shoes dont fit right anymore, which has made them extremely mad because it's very cold in norway. They're out for Hiro's blood now, or more specifically his shirt and shoes, because Hiro is a roided man from the future and thus holds the only apparel in norway that will fit the villagers. The ancient norwegian steroids had another terrifying side effect however: bony face At least, that's the story I've put together from the clues in this blessedly cutsceneless Daikatana. This is probably my favourite episode of the game. I'd go so far as to say I like this episode of Daikatana more than I like Hexen, or maybe even more than I like Quake 2. The weapons aren't terrible, only a couple of them can hurt you and they're pretty useable beyond that. The music is really nice as I mentioned in a post earlier in the thread. I don't mind the enemies. The level design is confusing and terrible, but not nearly so much as earlier (or later) episodes, and they're pretty visually appealing, although not as good as the ancient greece episode. What I really didn't get is why this episode didn't use any Norse mythology whatsoever. Ancient greece was like a greatest hits of ancient greek poo poo, even having the gods themselves talking to you. Whereas Norway is a weird combo of Hammer Horror monsters and lord of the rings. Whatever. Let's get to the meat of the potato: The weapons. The game gives them to you all out of sequence for some reason, so I'm gonna do them in the order you get them instead of the order the buttons are bound to. 2. The useful crossbow: this little pistol crossbow thingy is the sort of thing you'd expect a 90s vampire slayer to be using, only they'd have one in each hand. You just get the one, which is weird because they throw like 500 of the drat things at you at the start of the episode. They really didn't want you to miss it I guess. It is useful though. Ammo comes in huge amounts and it does good damage and fires fast and can gib the zombies. The only problem its its a projectile shooting gun which makes it drat near impossible to hit some of the more spazzy flying enemies. 1. The sassy silver glove: this is a melee weapon, which is kind of weird as by now you probably have a juiced up daikatana which will be way better than this glove. It's an ornate silver glove with blade fingers, like what Freddy Krueger would wear to banquet. It uses the same animations as the flaily punchglove from episode 1, except now that your fingers are extended instead of curled up it looks like you're doing the 'oh you' hand gesture. That way you patronise them while you kill them. The game forces you to use this glove quite a lot because it's the only way to permakill the werewolves. An extra dimension of skill is added to this process as the hit detection on werewolf corpses is really loving weird so you have to crouch and crabwalk round them, sassing away as you try to find the sweet spot that will gib them. 4. The rocket laun- Ballista: The roided up brother of the little useful crossbow. Its ammo is called ballista logs so you know it's packing some serious mass. You can rocket jump with it for some reason, and it does splash damage. You can only hold 30 ammo for it at a time which kind of sucks. It has a neat effect where it actually pushes enemies a pretty far distance like the log is really plowing into them (doho) which makes it feel distinct to the other rocket launchers. But it's really ugly and the fact you find it so much earlier than weapon 3 made me go back and replay the levels to see if I'd missed weapon 3 somewhere along the line (I hadn't). 3. THE PRODIGAL STAFF: the rest of the weapons in this episode are magic staves. This one is the first one you get, and it's called Stavros' Staff. Surprisingly it drops off a guy called Stavros. This is funny to me because A) Stavros is a greek name, and we have a fair number of greek people in england and Stavros seems to be about as common as Bob as a name so the name is neither Norwegian nor is it mystical at all, and B) Stavros sounds like staves, so Stavros' Staff is like Swordy's Sword. Anyway, the weapon looks like a mishapen lava dildo and it functions as another rocket launcher, except you can't rocket jump with it, the boulder it fires is really slow and originates from somewhere above you, and the ammo is rare as hell. Aside from that it does good damage so it can be useful to clear groups of rats with. 5. Wyndrax's Wisp Waste of Time: Another staff, you get this one off a wizard called Wyndrax. It looks like a claw-topped cane a man with a fedora and anime collection would carry, and it fires out little wisps that seek out enemies and aoe lightning shock them. This sounds useful but it does so little damage it's not worthwhile. Notable for the fact that the ammo for it bobs up and down, and this isn't just an animation, the actual object flies up and down so sometimes you have to jump to collect it. 6. Super Cool Skull Stick: I really like this weapon. It jazzes me to the core. You get it off YET ANOTHER WIZARD but this one is great. It's ammo? The enemies you kill. It's method of attack? An awesome demon guy appears from the netherworld and teleports around gibbing suckers. Hiro draws a pentagram with the staff on the screen to attack. It's kind of a BFG and personally I think it's a really awesome idea. The only caveat is that the animation takes kind of long, both for drawing the pentagram and for the demon to pop out and make his attack. Also the demon gets mad if you don't have any targets. Of all the weapons that needed a God to do a voiceover to tell you how it works this was probably it. Instead the gods stick to greece and are all 'Take my Trident but be warned, don't try and stick it in your rear end'. They are notoriously fickle though, gods. Still, look at this friggin demon guy doing his thing: The enemies in this episode are kind of a mixed bag. I didn't really feel strongly about them one way or the other. The small creatures of the earth are still fuckin pissed at you, so expect to be attacked by rats, bats and automo- I mean, tiny little worms who look like they were made by Jim Henson with their splitting open melon heads. The worms are pretty deadly cause they spit poison, and the bats can somehow roost in mid-air: I talked about the zombies a bit already, but I didn't mention their weird teleporting power. If you attack them from too far off they disappear in a dust cloud and pop out of the ground near you. I think they're meant to be burrowing but it doesn't really make much sense at all. You have to gib them to keep them down, like in Quake, but unlike in Quake any weapon can do it. The werewolves are just like the zombies, except they can't teleport and you have to use the silver claw to gib their awkward bodies. I had one hilarious instance with these guys, I killed one right underneath a raising/lowering type door, and the door kept trying to close on the corpse but it couldn't gib it because it wasn't the silver glove, so the werewolf just kept on reviving and being crushed and reviving again. The rest of the monsters are all humanoids with terrible goddamn voice acting. The pantsless, axe-throwing dwarves constantly say 'I NEED THE TURLET', the red archers and sword guys speak in norwegian but sound like they were voiced by internet teens, and the three wizard minibosses sound like saturday morning cartoon villains. The really low budget 70s ones. In what can only be a piece of profound social satire, the blue lightning ladies don't get a voice at all. Makes you think. I forgot to mention one of the other enemies, there are like three of them in the game and I think they're meant to be dragons but I'm not sure cause they stay super far up in the sky: You be the judge. There's also the goddamn dopefish in a secret but they make you kill him, poor lil guy Speaking of secrets, this episode has way too goddamn many and I found like 3 of them. There's a two minute long level called 'the passage' which has 5 secrets in, and after some intense searching I managed to find 4 of them, but if you followed what looked like it would be a secret it actually turned out to be the real end of the level and no, you can't go back from that one. That's a big complaint about this game for me, it uses half-life style loading screens that just randomly turn up, except they are in no way clearly marked, and it's never clear whether you'll be able to backtrack or not. So you can be wandering down a corridor and then suddenly loading screen into a totally different area and be unable to backtrack. Which is a real dick move in a game so full of bitchy secrets. The levels in this episode do have a nice snowy, norwegian feel to them, although I don't know that the architecture is really authentic at all, what with every house being loving huge and studded with gargoyles and poo poo. In the real world it's only really american houses that are absolutely gigantic. The rest of the world has smaller houses, because a large house just leaves more places for bats, rats and worms to hide in and ambush you from. And slashers. Just watch the Scream or Halloween series and it'll show you why it's better to have a smaller house. If a slasher came to my nice little british house I'd know where he was right away. I can't even fit my clothes into my wardrobe, never mind a person. But I digress. There is some outrageous fetchquesting in ancient norway. You have to find a shitload of keys to open various poo poo, and you also have to collect a broken sword, which from the number of parts it has I would estimate is 15 feet long. A lot of these keys require you to both be psychic and swim through icewater, which in a bizarre turn of realism, hurts you. I really hate being forced to take damage in games, I think it's terrible game design because it can make it impossible for a player who is low on health to progress. It wasn't a problem for me here because the game throws so much health at you, but if I was shittier at the game it'd be really annoying. Also I thought the sword would be weapon six, but it isn't. It never came into play for me at all because coop doesn't have cutscenes. I have no idea what the sword was for. Which is probably for the best. Norway had some really bizarre ideas about switch design in the past. One door is opened by waggling a gravestone about, a staircase is lowered by jumping up on some heroes tomb, a trapdoor is opened by playing a sweet organ riff. A tradition proudly carried on into the future by Kage Mishima. There's also the weirdest choice ever, black chests that you open up and sometimes they have powerups in and sometimes they explode. I don't know why they would put that sort of risk/reward mechanic into a single player game. The funny part is that when the chests explode they hurt you no matter how far away you run between opening them and the explosion. It's terrible. I guess the story of this episode revolves around the three wizard minibosses you fight, as the levels after the village go fire place -> lightning place -> zombie place. The minibosses all died for me in 2 or 3 ballista logs so I didn't hear much of their dialogue. The levels are okay beyond the general daikatana obtuseness and lovely secrets. That's not really great review commentary but really there just wasn't much to say about them. They're neither hilariously bad or notably good. Just ok. Like Quake 2. The level of quality control seems to have taken a dive, as there are a bunch of graphical errors like misaligned textures and floating lamps, but they aren't related to secrets like misaligned textures in Doom were, so I guess they're just fuckups: The last boss of the episode is the King. Not elvis, just some dude. He's ripped as hell and sits around in a ruined throneroom. You kill him for some reason. You know what the punishment is for regicide? Jail. Future Jail. The Rock. The Boneyard. The Slammer. You're going to Alcatraz, creep. NEXT TIME ON DAIKATANA: EPISODE 4: BILL CLINTON ON BUFF ISLAND
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Oct 8, 2013 16:09
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So, I'm doing a big Halloween Special article for Game Front this month, and it's about Doom, the original (and Doom 2), because what's more Halloween'y than a demon-infested, gore-splattered beast that has only grown stronger for two decades solid? I'll mostly be focusing on the state of Doom today - a primer on where to begin nowadays - so I'll be looking at all the big mods. Naturally, Brutal Doom will get quite some focus, especially as the final release is due on the day itself. I was just wondering what y'all would recommend as great examples of what Doom is like now. What mods and maps highlight its growth over the years. Project MSX is a given, and I'm definitely including Reelism, and might want to get a quote or two from Kins. Map-pack wise, Community Chest 4 and Back To Saturn X are good picks, and for a good example of slaughtermaps, Sunder is a nice highlight of what peak crazy looks like. I'm hoping to include a mention of ZDCMP2, which is just about the best example I've seen of Doom's evolution - it looks like it's nearly complete, and they're just bouncing around RC betas doing fine-tuning now. Anyone got Tormentor667's email address? I can't seem to locate it.
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Oct 8, 2013 18:34
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Dominic White posted:So, I'm doing a big Halloween Special article for Game Front this month, and it's about Doom, the original (and Doom 2), because what's more Halloween'y than a demon-infested, gore-splattered beast that has only grown stronger for two decades solid? Oh, and you Megaman 8-bit Deathmatch is a crowd-pleaser, though its been mentioned a lot over the years. As far as extracting words from me and Torm's email, check your PMs. 
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Oct 8, 2013 18:46
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Awesome, thanks. Winter's Fury is definitely on the list - I loved it even in its original release, where the final boss had about three times more health than there was ammo in the arena. Cold As Hell for another ice-themed big mod. MM8bDM will probably get a brief mention, although that's more of a seperate fan-game that just happens to run on Zandronum. Just picking out the best of the best is going to be a fun challenge here. It's no surprise that Doom has remained my favourite game for most of my life.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:04
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Dominic White posted:Awesome, thanks. Winter's Fury is definitely on the list - I loved it even in its original release, where the final boss had about three times more health than there was ammo in the arena. Cold As Hell for another ice-themed big mod. 
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Oct 8, 2013 19:08
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Maybe a (very) brief mention of Doom the Mercenaries to help illustrate what kind of weird poo poo can happen in Doom nowadays
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Oct 8, 2013 19:12
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FirstPersonShitter posted:DAIKATANA EPISODE 3: NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO MERCY I'm loving the hell out of these write-ups. Keep going, man; you are doing everyone a great service by bravely subjecting yourself to this game.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:14
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I guess you could also mention all the multiplayer mods for Doom that are around, like Stronghold, All Out War 2, Shotgun Frenzy, Whodunit and such. All of these are pretty good examples of just how much you can do with Doom nowadays.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:18
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Capilarean posted:I guess you could also mention all the multiplayer mods for Doom that are around, like Stronghold, All Out War 2, Shotgun Frenzy, Whodunit and such. All of these are pretty good examples of just how much you can do with Doom nowadays. It's going to be a tough call! Even with a big Halloween feature, I've only got so much space to fill here, so I'll have to be careful with my picking and choosing.
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Oct 8, 2013 19:26
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Zaphod42 posted:Are you using a sourceport? First play through vanilla doom Knee Deep In The Dead all the way through with no mods. Use something like gzdoom so it runs all nice and fast. Glad I finally got around to playin' the granddaddy of FPSs.And nah, I haven't. Did play a bit of DN3D with a friend back in middle school but that's about it when it comes to my experience with early shooters.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:03
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IMO, there is more enjoyment to be gotten out of Vanilla Doom (2), the best FPS ever made, than playing Knee Deep in the Dead once. 
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Oct 8, 2013 20:25
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Fag Boy Jim posted:IMO, there is more enjoyment to be gotten out of Vanilla Doom (2), the best FPS ever made, than playing Knee Deep in the Dead once. I hope you mean Knee Deep in Zdoom, or we are going to have a falling out.  EDIT: I totally misread the intention, and though you were saying Knee Deep in the Dead was a bad episode v vBut yeah, still my favorite episode in original Doom, John Romero can make me his bitch anytime.
Some dumb idiot fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 20:33
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I was going for "Playing Map20 in Alien Vendetta over and over again" with the Real Gore edition of Brutal Doom installed.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:34
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Fag Boy Jim posted:IMO, there is more enjoyment to be gotten out of Vanilla Doom (2), the best FPS ever made, than playing Knee Deep in the Dead once. Oh yeah, for sure. I'm just saying, that's the episode you absolutely MUST loving PLAY, the prereq to all DOOM action. The others are fun too but more of the same and not quite as polished. You have to play episode 1 on vanilla doom first, then you can go play brutal doom and reelism and whatever. You can play the other episodes now or always come back to them, but before you play brutal doom and get biased, you should play knee deep in vanilla, was my point.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:35
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Yeah, I get you. I do want to say that Doom Ep4 and Plutonia are both fantastic, and much more representative of "Modern Doooming" than KDITD, which, while amazingly good-looking, is also really easy if you aren't keyboarding. seriously E4M2 is my choice for best single map ever made, including every custom wad I've ever tried
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Oct 8, 2013 20:36
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Knee-Deep gives you a good understanding of Doom's basics, even if it's tame and uneventful compared to most WADs -- let alone 'hardcore' DOOM 2 WADs. It lays out a lot of map design conventions.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:38
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If anything, any exposure at all to the Doom modding community is good because you still get people going 'People still play that!?' as a response when it's mentioned.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:41
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Dominic White posted:So, I'm doing a big Halloween Special article for Game Front this month, and it's about Doom, the original (and Doom 2), because what's more Halloween'y than a demon-infested, gore-splattered beast that has only grown stronger for two decades solid? Why does BrDoom need to get any focus whatsoever? Everyone already knows about it - people arguably know more about it than they do vanilla Doom, to the point where you get stupid stuff like people claiming SgtMark single-handedly implemented mouselook in the doom engine. (Set 'em right.) Focus more on the out of the way stuff - compare the progression from DOOM2.WAD to Sunder to something like the progression from 1942 to bullet hell shooters. Give some column inches to projects that don't get the limelight, get some time with someone like TimeOfDeath and have him explain just what goes through his mind when he makes a beautiful remake of Quake's E1M2 only to stuff it to the limits with cyberdemons. Then explain why someone as crazy as that guy can be put in front of Doom Builder and still end up with something that people play and love. If it's a Halloween article, talk about the scary side of Doom - go over Unloved and Terry wads with equal praise. The timing is right, in the wake of yet another "old-school" shooter remake (Shadow Warrior) that fails to hit the mark left by id software's 20-year-old outing. Why? Is it all thanks to the community? Can no game hope to go up against 20 years of mods and come out on top? What prevents a game that everyone has at least heard of from being properly reinvented? Go beyond comparing map layouts to a Call of Duty corridor. It's about more than the boyish blood and gaudy gore, about more than the number of monsters on the screen, about more than shotguns and demons. If you just go and type a few descriptions of BrDoom, MSX, ZDCMP, etc, just the big new projects that only run on the one sourceport with nothing that unifies them... You make it more about Doom as an engine and less about Doom as a game. And Doom, even when prepended with GZ, is a loving terrible engine.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:50
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An Enormous Boner posted:Knee-Deep gives you a good understanding of Doom's basics, even if it's tame and uneventful compared to most WADs -- let alone 'hardcore' DOOM 2 WADs. It lays out a lot of map design conventions. Absolutely, and I hope nobody else took my post as being dismissive of KDITD, what I was trying to say is that Vanilla Doom starts there, it doesn't end there.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:51
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Tiger Schwert posted:Why does BrDoom need to get any focus whatsoever? Because it's probably the single most popular Doom mod today, and it's getting a final release on the same day the article is going live about how much Doom has changed over 20 years. Also, there are a lot of people who aren't aware that Doom is even still active these days, and this is a primer. My god, do you have PTSD or something? Do you go into debilitating flashbacks or something when someone mentions that one mod? Chill, duder. I think at this point, doing the exact opposite of whatever you suggest is probably my best bet. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 20:55
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The Shadow Warrior remake missed the mark? That's news to me. E: Also, yeah, Brutal Doom is a fairly popular mod that draws in new people a fair bit.
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Oct 8, 2013 20:56
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Tiger Schwert posted:Why does BrDoom need to get any focus whatsoever? Everyone already knows about it - people arguably know more about it than they do vanilla Doom, to the point where you get stupid stuff like people claiming SgtMark single-handedly implemented mouselook in the doom engine. (Set 'em right.) Dude you really need to chill the gently caress out about Brutal Doom.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:07
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I hope mentioning on a popular gaming site that the most popular Doom mod is one made by a racist homophobe that has been banned from the zDoom and Zandronum forums for encouraging a depressed poster to kill himself doesn't reflect poorly on the Doom community! That would be very bad, IMO.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:07
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There is also the issue of the creator being a piece of poo poo, yes! That's...really something to consider when bringing it up in a public article.
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Oct 8, 2013 21:13
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