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IUG posted:Didn't Jack shoot Snowman through the heart? Yeah, but paradox space (Or Lord English, Doc Scratch, someone. All of the above?) had pretty much designated that as a Thing That Had to Happen. Color Printer fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 02:15
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frozentreasure posted:The fanfiction authors would have you believe it just means a BDSM relationship. No, I'm not gonna defend myself for knowing that; I pretty much deserve that look on your face right now. Thanks man, now we have to seal the airlocks to make sure nothing gets out into the general population. Again.
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Oct 10, 2013 02:18
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Seoinin posted:Black's supposed to be rivalry, not driving your partner to attempt murder while crying. I don't think we've seen a functioning kismewhatever yet. This is interesting because Gamzee's treatment of Terezi is actually pretty similar to how the Black Queen treated Jack. Like Gamzee with Terezi, the Queen regularly threatened, attacked, and humiliated Jack for her own amusement, taking advantage of his complete inability to defend himself due to the Snowman's universe destroying power and the Queen's prototyping. There was an incredible power imbalance between the two, and Jack really had no choice but to take her abuse or impotently resist until she started threatening his life. But Jack never felt weak or helpless when she beat the poo poo out of him and tore his arm off. Her mockery and violence didn't push him into a downward spiral of self-loathing and regret while feeling both terrified and dependent on her. Jack wasn't afraid the Queen, even though she could slaughter him in an instant, she pissed him the hell off and he was determined to do everything in his power to find some way to take her down. And Slick's relationship with Snowman even seemed to have a positive effect on him. Look at how B2 Jack acted during his jailbreak, he's a bumbling, incompetent dipshit who can't go one minute without sabotaging his own escape attempt by stabbing someone for no reason or something equally stupid. He runs completely on impulse and can't handle with any situation that can't be solved with murder. It's hard to imagine that the same guy is the one who came up with Operation Regisurp, a complex scheme to overthrow a 12x prototyped Black Queen and steal her ring that involved espionage, political sabotage, and maintaining teamwork between a dysfunctional group of twelve kids he absolutely despises. Can you imagine the Jack of Jackbreak taking on the Felt and working on the fly to use their confusing time powers against them? Spades Slick's desire to defeat Snowman by any means necessary is what drove him to stop solving his problems with mindless violence but with much more well thought out violence. Gamzee may treat Terezi like Snowman treated Slick, but it hasn't been constructive to Terezi's personal development or emotional well-being at all. From what we know about the situation, Gamzee doesn't see her as a rival to challenge him and he doesn't want her to try and oppose him. Snowman pushed Slick down to watch him get up and make a futile attempt at pushing her back. Gamzee pushes Terezi down and laughs as she just lays there trying to figure out what it was she did to deserve being pushed. Also kismesistude is just a hosed up concept in general and the real reason an abusive relationship like Slick and Snowman's can be called a "healthy" one is because they're both violent sociopathic stick figure bug people used mainly for dark humor and have very little real characterization, while Terezi and Gamzee are main characters with fully fleshed out personalities and their actions hold serious weight in the narrative. Which is probably why we haven't seen a healthy kismesistude between any of the trolls. SexyBrianPuppet fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 03:00
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frozentreasure posted:You could argue that his abusive behaviour was because of Aranea's control, but I doubt Tumblrites are actually thinking about that.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:01
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Blackheart posted:The thing with troll relationships is that it was supposed to be stupid. It always was. Hussie had to explain it to us in detail to see if we could read that block of text with a straight face, and then he took it to the extreme with leprechaun romance. Will we have to see Squiddle romance to understand that the quadrants were always a joke and not to be emulated or taken seriously? Things in Homestuck can be jokes and still be serious. I think the romantic quadrant system is that way. I think we do have examples of characters that had serious relationships in the other quadrants, such as Nepeta and Equuis, and even (for a while) Gamzee and Karkat and Eridan and Feferi. As for Kismesis, I guess I can't think of a healthy relationship of such portrayed in the comic. I think that elements of it are healthy, such as the rivalry between Karkat and John (or I guess between Karkat and just about anyone), which drives both parties to outdo each other.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:11
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lotus circle posted:I feel like if we go down this road, we'll slowly start to see everyone excusing Gamzee's actions as Aranea controlling him and pointing the blame at her. She doesn't seem to really do anything with him other than control him so he isn't on a rampage.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:29
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Has Aranea really been working on her plan for that long, though? I got that she had just recently come up with the plan and had only recently started manipulating Gamzee because he's easily manipulated and good at being in the right place at the right time.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:48
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senseinobu posted:Also Arenea might have been using him to break down Terezi emotionally so that Terezi couldn't user her seer of mind powers to figure out her plan. Can't we just accept that the clown is a lovely rear end in a top hat in this scenario without bringing Aranea into it? All she seems to be doing with him is keeping his trap shut, there's no indication that ever makes him talk at all.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:48
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No way. No loving way. Gamzee did all that bullshit on his own. You know how I know? She would not have had the GUTS not to monologue about it until after she came back to life. NO way. Also she flat out says she didn't consider this until she learned about the ring, which was weeeeeeeeell after Gamzee was being a loving awful piece of poo poo.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:49
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Burkion posted:No way. Also (unless I'm forgetting something) every time we see Gamzee on the meteor during the long cycle of intermissions, he never has the chilled out look that he had while Aranea was controlling him, which makes it way more likely that he was in control of his own actions during that time period.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:56
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Burkion posted:No way. Then again, time is fluid in the Furthest Ring - she could learn about the ring at one point and mind control Gamzee in order to get him to pressure Terezi into accepting her offer in the past. Hell, she could do that after Terezi already came to her asking for healing after she realizes Terezi changed her mind by pressure from Gamzee, pressure she was destined to cause. Time loops haven't stopped being a thing that can happen. It's unclear if this is what happened or not at the moment. It does seem that Terezi seems to believe Aranea was in on the scheme, since she called her out after appearing to stab Gamzee, although that might just be her lashing out while overwhelmed with emotion.
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Oct 10, 2013 03:59
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Burkion posted:NO way. Also she flat out says she didn't consider this until she learned about the ring, which was weeeeeeeeell after Gamzee was being a loving awful piece of poo poo. The flow of time is strange in the furthest ring. No reason why she couldn't have found out about the ring and then started controlling Gamzee through the entirety of the meteor journey.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:01
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Burkion posted:Also she flat out says she didn't consider this until she learned about the ring, which was weeeeeeeeell after Gamzee was being a loving awful piece of poo poo. Gamzee has always been an awful piece of poo poo. 
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Oct 10, 2013 04:05
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Terezi had been an emotional wreck ever since she got on the asteroid, really. She badly regretted killing Vriska, even though it was a necessary act. Then she met Rose, and felt inferior as a Seer. Then she met Latula, and felt inferior as a Pyrope. She shuts herself away from the friends she had, then Gamzee comes along and offers her a different relationship, but only exacerbates her self-loathing. Then she went to Aranea to try to find something else to change, which only makes her feel even worse. Terezi's problem is she'd convinced herself she had problems and being unable to fix them drove her mad. Gamzee does seem to be kind of the tipping point of it all, though. Karkat seemed to be getting through to her a little during those walkarounds, so maybe he and Dave could have brought her back to her old self if Gamzee hadn't been doing his thing. Given most troll relationships seem meant to make them more stable, there was definitely something wrong between them. Personally if I were to look for an example of a healthy kismesis I'd look more at what Terezi was like with Vriska, even if they weren't actually in that sort of relationship.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:06
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lotus circle posted:And this is the issue I have: if we say Aranea is behind Gamzee's behavior, it acts as a direct excuse for his behavior and his emotional abuse. Though in general I think the idea that Aranea purposefully hosed with Terezi seems ridiculous. She had nothing but good intentions when she offered to heal Terezi's eyes and Terezi, in a state of insecurity brought on by feeling inferior to Latula and Gamzee mocking her blindness, agreed to it and made a huge mistake in doing so. Terezi implied when she spoke with Karkat, when the truth came out, that the last time she used her powers were against Vriska and felt so terrible about what happened that she chose not to use them again. Aranea has no need to gently caress with Terezi's powers when Terezi has no desire to ever use them again since what happened three years ago.
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Oct 10, 2013 04:10
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Gamzee's a villain. It's probably a safe bet he was doing black romance wrong, because he's an antagonist and his lot in the story is to do Bad Things. This isn't incredibly hard, here. He's not some open-to-interpretation morally ambiguous character like Vriska; his entire character is Psychotic Evil Clown. Vriska and Eridan had a bland if normal black romance as part of their backstory, recall, back before Eridan was also an antagonist. They shot at each other, made threats, and fought, but nothing on this level. Cabbit fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Oct 10, 2013 |
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Oct 10, 2013 04:11
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Blackheart posted:Gamzee has always been an awful piece of poo poo. When he was first introduced I thought he was kinda weird but generally seemed pretty nice and was pals with Tavros. 
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Oct 10, 2013 04:18
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Gamzee is a troubled youth. Neglected by his parent and scorned by his friends, he turned in equal parts to substance abuse and spirituality to find peace in a world that seemed to hold him in contempt when it cared about him at all. Emerging from that haze to discover that his religion is a joke and so is he, he turned to outrage, resentment toward the world that made him the vile piece of clown rear end trash he all is. Heir to the grand highblood, he learned from a young age that his duty was the sadistic punishment of his inferiors (which is to say, everybody).
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Oct 10, 2013 04:35
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Bongo Bill posted:Heir to the grand highblood, he learned from a young age that his duty was the sadistic punishment of his inferiors (which is to say, everybody). Thanks for the reminder of this amazing chatlog and memo. Karkat is one of the best conversation partners for anyone. Anything with him or Dave is guaranteed gold. In retrospect, Horrorstuck was a great period- it was a ton of heavy plot stuff happening in rapid updates with lots of day-to-day suspense, mixed with some of the comic's best humor, and it still reads just as well in archives. The whole thing is just stuffed with dramatic tension and comedy. It also makes me realize how much I missed a motivated Terezi, and how little she has really done in a long time. Like, she was originally one of the most active, mysterious, and interesting trolls when the trolls were messing with the humans in like Acts 3 and 4 or whatever, and it has been, what? A year of real time during which we have barely seen or heard from her? I really hope AH has big plans for her, because so far she really hasn't had a big spotlight moment the way others did. Like Dirk had Unite/Synchronize, Jade had her dog-ascension, John has had lots of cool windy moments, and even that doomed-timeline Vriska-Jack fight was cool. Terezi is sort of like Vriska in that she has done very little of importance since the coin flip, yet has stuck around the story on the edge. Hussie is keeping her around for a reason, but what is it?
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Oct 10, 2013 05:46
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Blackheart posted:Gamzee has always been an awful piece of poo poo. Nah, he was pretty decent until he got introduced to the Miracles video.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:10
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WAMPA_STOMPA posted:Words about stuff from acts previous Yeah, this sums up how I feel about that part of the comic. poo poo was fun and entertaining, and the trolls were all talking to each other which made for great character interaction and chatlogs. Wish we could get something like this again, but it seems we are past the point of no return, and since the motif of HS is growing up/moving on, I doubt we ever will.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:25
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Thundarr posted:Nah, he was pretty decent until he got introduced to the Miracles video. Hey remember when Sollux died and literally Spades Slick was a more comforting friend to Karkat than Gamzee?
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Oct 10, 2013 06:28
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So I just got caught back up with this webcomic after a long break and holy poo poo have things gone off the rails. What the gently caress is this comic even about anymore.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:38
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Talorat posted:So I just got caught back up with this webcomic after a long break and holy poo poo have things gone off the rails. What the gently caress is this comic even about anymore. Yes it is. Oh? You wanted an actual answer? Well, here goes: There's an existential threat to the universe by the name of Lord English. He's generally a dick. Aranea is the only living soul to have seen him  Because of this, the main cast doesn't really care about him as much. Some may or may not still think Becspers Noirelecrow is the biggest threat out there. Evil Fish Hitler hijacked two of the characters, sorta. But one's dead for semi-real, minus not actually being dead (note her eyes here). Fish Hitler is also generally a dick. The non-hijacked cast members want to kill her. An evil rascally clown juggalo alien with a codpiece is also a dick but momentarily wasn't, only to be a scary dick a moment later; a phrase not commonly uttered in the context of a worksafe story. The comic is about Three Stooges Syndrome and how awesome the Mayor is.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:46
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Hremsfeld posted:There's an existential threat to the universe by the name of Lord English. He's generally a dick. Aranea is the only living soul to have seen him I think you mean Ms. Paint.  If not when was this?
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Oct 10, 2013 06:49
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Talorat posted:What the gently caress is this comic even about anymore. Everyone is a teen and it is awful.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:52
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Talorat posted:So I just got caught back up with this webcomic after a long break and holy poo poo have things gone off the rails. What the gently caress is this comic even about anymore. Kids and fun! 
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Oct 10, 2013 07:00
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frozentreasure posted:Oh, and not to distract from this thrilling line of conversation, but, at long last, troll hoodies are available (and embroidered patches for the kids, like what you got in the Kickstarter rewards). This is one of those moments where I realize just how heavy of a homestuck I am, when the first question that goes through my mind is not "should I buy one?", but "which one should I buy?" as though not buying one wasn't even a consideration. help I can't stop throwing money at my monitor
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Oct 10, 2013 07:59
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Talorat posted:So I just got caught back up with this webcomic after a long break and holy poo poo have things gone off the rails. What the gently caress is this comic even about anymore. Shipping.
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Oct 10, 2013 12:19
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Hremsfeld posted:. She IS actually dead, remember ghosts only get the blank eyes once they realize they are dead.
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Oct 10, 2013 13:34
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Lizard Wizard posted:I was under the impression it was a black relationship. Wow, racist.
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Oct 10, 2013 17:32
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Fister Roboto posted:Wow, racist. All this chat about whether or not Gamzee is a REAL <3< or an ABUSIVE BOYFRIEND reminds me that I really loving hate everything about the trolls and especially the fact that the internet as a whole somehow missed the point and started taking these egotistical emotionally stunted weirdos seriously. Trolls are dumb. Except Karkat. Try not to think about them too much.
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Oct 10, 2013 18:40
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They really are just gray people with horns and fangs. The entire romance thing was made up by kids, so of course it doesn't make any goddamn sense if you try to think about it logically, because, simply, you shouldn't have to. Matters of the heart, when it comes to emotion, cannot be defined in such strict and weird ways. You can't put everything into a box. Even the nonsense about Kissmisstude is fine because it's basically rivals who hatefuck each other, which happens a lot.
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Oct 10, 2013 18:53
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:All this chat about whether or not Gamzee is a REAL <3< or an ABUSIVE BOYFRIEND reminds me that I really loving hate everything about the trolls and especially the fact that the internet as a whole somehow missed the point and started taking these egotistical emotionally stunted weirdos seriously. Quadrants weren't always terrible. But shippers and tumblers ruined it. Shipper and tumblers, man... shippers and tumblers...
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Oct 10, 2013 20:28
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Isn't troll romance just a clever way to simulate for the adult audience the confusion 13 year olds feel about romance? Unfortunately, the quadrants made a slight modicum of sense so people had to study it and figure it out, making it the quidditch of Homestuck.
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Oct 10, 2013 20:32
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Who What Now posted:Quadrants weren't always terrible. Yes they were. The entire point of them was to be terrible.
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Oct 10, 2013 20:37
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So it appears we will have to be educated about squiddle romance to understand the troll romance system is a joke. And people will still theorize about it.
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Oct 10, 2013 20:43
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Olivia42 posted:Isn't troll romance just a clever way to simulate for the adult audience the confusion 13 year olds feel about romance? Unfortunately, the quadrants made a slight modicum of sense so people had to study it and figure it out, making it the quidditch of Homestuck. I'm still pretty sure troll romance is why Homestuck has such a huge and insane fanbase. The size of Homestuck's audience was just incremental increases over Problem Sleuth levels until trolls and troll romance came around and the community of people who are fans of things on Tumblr ate it up like prime rib. Humanoid alien bisexual aracial angsty teenagers who seem to only communicate via IM and are all Internet stereotypes and have a culture which encourages kinky hate-sex? Of course the youth of the Internet went crazy for that poo poo.
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Oct 10, 2013 20:51
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Pretty sure troll romance was originally to make fun of the whole "these two characters hate each other, therefore they obviously want to gently caress each other" thing fans do.
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Oct 10, 2013 21:32
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WhiffleballDude posted:Yes they were. The entire point of them was to be terrible. Ok yes, they were undeniably terrible. But tumblr took them, ran with them, and made them godawful.
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Oct 10, 2013 22:19
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