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Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Are you disrespecting the cape?

You do not disrespect the cape. :colbert:

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Bholder
Feb 26, 2013

That cape is the best, I want a cape like that.

I also wanted to explain the levels better, then I realised they are quite convoluted... and it gets worse.

Green Tea Erotica
May 5, 2010

Anything you can do I can do BETTER
So I was able to Finish Muv-Luv Alternative today. I kinda powered through it the past few days. Really glad I decided to give the series a go, I ended up enjoying all 3 games. (Although some of the routes in the first one were a bore.)
All of the fighting that was done from Sadogashima Invasion and on was really well done. It doesn't ever get too repetitive even though they are only using a handful of sprites to make all the action happen. A lot of the sadness that hit did make me cry near the end and many other moment hit me really hard too.
Sumika recalling her rape was really bad, after I finished the scene I just took off my headphones and put my face in my hands for a good 3-4 minutes.
A lot of deaths I assumed were going to happen, Like the second Elder Suzumiya volunteered to input the codes I knew she was a goner and some came as a surprise The entire squad!!
The entire ending sequence of events, from the end of the second to last chapter to the last chapter were great. All the action and emotions they had going was really nice. From Ayamine and Chizuru's deaths to Meiya's final stand was all amazing and that conversation that Takeru had through Kasumi at the end was really neat, It was nice that the BETA got to talk at the end, I was going to be upset if they were a dumb Hivemind that just was there to eat or whatever, I'm glad they had motivations and at the end they still aren't 100% understood.
So riding the train of emotions at the very end was good, the part that actually made me cry was Chizuru's final goodbye note to Takeru where she confesses. But I'm assuming this changes depending on which secondary girl you were focusing on.
Then the very end was nice and refreshing. And, it was nice how The world he's in now has Yuuhi alive and Kasumi was there as well. Oh, and Mikoto actually dressing like a girl.
Overall, it was fantastic, solid 10/10 and I play on trying to get some my friends to give the series a shot.
Also, I know Altered fable is a silly fandisk, but more content is more contentEven if it's just there to be Porn, is it actually translated? I'd like to see more interactions with the cast now that Yuuhi and Kasumi are there in a peaceful world.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008

Fallen Rib
Its being translated, but not finished yet. I think there's a partial patch if you dig around on the internet. And yeah, that final message varies. Meiya doesn't get one, since she gets to say what she wants to say anyway, but I think all the other girls get one.

jonjonaug
Mar 26, 2010

by Lowtax

Green Tea Erotica posted:

So riding the train of emotions at the very end was good, the part that actually made me cry was Chizuru's final goodbye note to Takeru where she confesses. But I'm assuming this changes depending on which secondary girl you were focusing on.

That scene varies depending on which of Meiya/Miki/Chizuru/Ayamine/Mikoto's flags you have triggered. Everyone but Meiya has some variation of that scene, while Meiya has an additional scene or two earlier in the story and doesn't have an equivalent scene there.

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax
The flag is which girl Takeru chooses to look for first at school (which also triggers the "date" later), and if Meiya is chosen then Kazumi gets a few lines of her own instead.

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Green Tea Erotica posted:

Also, I know Altered fable is a silly fandisk, but more content is more contentEven if it's just there to be Porn, is it actually translated? I'd like to see more interactions with the cast now that Yuuhi and Kasumi are there in a peaceful world.

It is more content, and there's substantially less porn than you might think. As was said, there is a translation effort up by different people than those who did the first two games, with a partial patch for the first part of it.

Having played Altered Fable, I quite liked it. It's basically Extra with better writing, a bigger budget, and a few characters from alternative that weren't in Extra thrown in. While you might groan at the thought of more extra, it does things right most of the time where extra did it wrong, and it's incredibly cathartic to play through right after Alternative. It's got some fun setpieces, a couple of terrible minigames, and while the individual characters' routes are super-short, they have them for a lot of characters.

Speaking of Muv Luv after stories, I hear that Alternative Chronicles 04 is finally out?

Barent
Jun 15, 2007

Never die in vain.

Bakanogami posted:

It is more content, and there's substantially less porn than you might think. As was said, there is a translation effort up by different people than those who did the first two games, with a partial patch for the first part of it.

Having played Altered Fable, I quite liked it. It's basically Extra with better writing, a bigger budget, and a few characters from alternative that weren't in Extra thrown in. While you might groan at the thought of more extra, it does things right most of the time where extra did it wrong, and it's incredibly cathartic to play through right after Alternative. It's got some fun setpieces, a couple of terrible minigames, and while the individual characters' routes are super-short, they have them for a lot of characters.

Speaking of Muv Luv after stories, I hear that Alternative Chronicles 04 is finally out?

Yeah, and I've been reading some spoilers about it. Poor Takeru. :( I hope all this stuff gets translated at some point.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom
How am I suppose to solve the big riddles of Uminenko if I can't even solve the cheese riddle? :negative:

Edit: I feel like with this scene they could have occasionally replaced some of Erika's sprites with :smug: and I would not have noticed the difference.

Edit2: At this rate this will end in a Witcher style ceremony where they just burn Erika alive with how much she's pissing everyone off. She's certainly not making any friend this chapter.

Edit3: Things I want to happen in one of these chapters- Rosa outliving Maria, George announcing his and Shannon's engagement to their parents...

Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Oct 7, 2013

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Currently playing through Ojousama ga Gokigen Naname. It's turned out to be a really good read, though it's a real test of both my super-formal and business terminology Japanese. Better language practice than the average VN.

I like most of the characters, Nanami in particular is great, and Sakurazaki manages to make it into the distinguished and rare category of "interesting VN protagonists". That said, Otoha's bit gets old about halfway through when she deliberately gets into debt with the yakuza just to prove a point, and Hana is yet another little sister with the hots for her brother, which is still a terrible thing. Other than that, even the antagonists are fairly humanized and interesting.

That being said, just when I thought I must be getting towards the end of the novel and the credits come up, I get "end of part 1". How long is this thing?

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Stall_19 posted:

Edit: I feel like with this scene they could have occasionally replaced some of Erika's sprites with :smug: and I would not have noticed the difference.

Erika is pretty great in 6. :allears:

Classy Hydra
Oct 30, 2011

You did wrong, Jack,
rest your soul.
6 is where I pretty much decided Erika was awesome.

That's awesome in the 'inspiring awe' sense, by the way, not the strictly complimentary one.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom
More Uminenko Chapter 6. I'm guessing this person locked in this room is suppose to be related to the Eva and Hideyoshi murders from chapter 1 and the Hideyoshi Murder from last chapter.

I guess I'll try my hand at this mystery. Assuming the windows are unusable and the killer would only be able to leave the room through the door and with the chain lock set and not being able to can't set it from outside the room the only way I see possible is to unscrew the part of the lock that is attached to the wall then go outside into the hallway and then screw it back in. I believe there would be enough room to fit a hand and have enough room for movement to reattach it to the wall.

Edit: This might be a little too meta for me Ange


Edit2: I'm not sure what voice Zepar is going for here....

Edit3: Why do I feel like some weird game show is about to start? One where they have to answer questions about their lovers or something like that.

Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Oct 8, 2013

Golden Battler
Sep 6, 2010

~Perfect and Elegant~
As strong a showing as she has in Episode 5, Episode 6 is what fully convinced me that Erika is the best character :allears:.

Also Stall, not that I really mind or anything, but is there any particular reason why you keep spelling Umineko as "Uminenko"? Just curious.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom

Golden Battler posted:

As strong a showing as she has in Episode 5, Episode 6 is what fully convinced me that Erika is the best character :allears:.

Also Stall, not that I really mind or anything, but is there any particular reason why you keep spelling Umineko as "Uminenko"? Just curious.

No reason, just didn't realize that I was putting that extra n there when it wasn't suppose to be there. It's not like spellcheck would have caught that for me.

Golden Battler
Sep 6, 2010

~Perfect and Elegant~
Ah, then here's an easier way to remember it. Umi means "sea" while Neko means "cat", so just remember SEACATS and you'll never forget :v:.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Stall_19 posted:


Edit: This might be a little too meta for me Ange



everyauthorever.jpg

Bakanogami
Dec 31, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Continuing in Ojousama wa gokigen naname, I'm really hoping this gets put on a fast track for translation. I just got to the bit with the Surstromming and I'm laughing my head off.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom
Umineko Chapter 6 Yeah, I think Jessica has the appropriate reaction.


Edit: Oh God, those eyes! It's Higurashi all over again!

Stall_19 fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Oct 9, 2013

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?
Grimey Drawer
That is a funny use of quotes there.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...

Stall_19 posted:

Umineko Chapter 6 Yeah, I think Jessica has the appropriate reaction.


Kyrie is pretty scary when she wants to be.

Stall_19 posted:

Edit: Oh God, those eyes! It's Higurashi all over again!


Let the blood flow for love! :unsmigghh:

Ottumon
Dec 20, 2012
Totono: I played through Miyuki route way earlier and thought it honestly was a little boring. I thought getting to Aoi's route was hard because most of the choices ended in Aoi disappearing and then cue Miyuki's end. The game still seemed a little boring and I was wondering why people recommended this. It's just that one of the characters seems to be a little bit aware of what's going on. Well, that changed. By the time I got to what I thought was going to be the end the game kept on going, and it got better. And then it kept on going, and it got better.

And then, it kept on going and turned batshit crazy. For some four hours I've been thinking that this is going to end soon but now... I really don't think there's an end in sight. Miyuki got scary. When I told her I hated her she became more scary on a more personal level, so I insantly regretted my decision and went back and told her the opposite. I don't think that made things any better, rather made them worse. I received the second update and Miyuki got even more direct, and as much as I am thrilled to continue, it's getting really late so I better quit and hope I can continue later on.

I wrote down the phone number though. That's bound to be useful.

I'm not yet done with this, but at this point I'm confident my time was not wasted. Even if you're a slow reader and haven't read a VN in Japanese ever like me, I recommend this. Even though it takes a while to kick in, it's worth a read.

e: Oh god that static and ru-ru-ru-ru-ru. I'm scared. :ohdear:

Ottumon fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Oct 10, 2013

Davzz
Jul 31, 2008

Ottumon posted:

Totono stuff
I guess this is like Totono's equivalent of the infamous scene in MLA that makes everyone giddy when fresh meat stumble onto it.

Stall_19
Jan 2, 2013

Prodigy of Victor von Doom
More Umineko Episode 6 Rosa has been pretty suspicious throughout all these chapter. Maria has generally been the one that initiates all the craziness with the letters from "Beatrice" I doubt Maria is the mastermind so Rosa would be the natural one to suspect with her using Maria as an accomplice. I find it odd that in 4 of these 6 chapters so far Maria and Rosa have been found "dead" together. Could they be faking their deaths? Maybe Rosa kills Maria in a lot of these chapters and then commits suicide or something like that. The other 2 chapters that Rosa and Maria weren't found dead together in one they survive to the end and are seen attempting ti escape the island and in the first chapter Rosa's corpse is never identified. Not to mention the odd bit in chapter 2 where she's was shown present in the chapel before the other adults were found dead. The only key to that place was in Maria's possession at the time. Then there was last chapter when Erika was sure that the first twilight crime was committed between 12:00 and 1:00 when she clearly saw Rosa at 1:00. That's a pretty big screwup. Did she really see Rosa or not? Hell, maybe Erika never even existed last chapter and all that can be thrown out the window. And finally just this chapter in the Witch Maria/ Kanon duel, Maria said something about being gentler than "mama" when she killed, implying that Rosa killed someone before. These little things just keep adding up.

And on the other end, the real world/game world/meta world is still a bit confusing. Just had a scene where Ange was talking to the writer which judging by the context of their conversation looked like the real world. Which was a bit odd after all, since most of the scenes between them to this point had been in the meta world.

Not sure about the Battler's mom situation. Chick-Beatrice brought up the theory that he might have been the child that Natsuhi had indirectly thrown off the cliff. Plausible theory I suppose. Interesting that "Beatrice" was also shown to have died after being thrown off a similar cliff. Is there a connection? We'll see. There is also the more likely theory that he's Kyrie's son. I believe it was said in red that he was definitely Rudolf's son and him and Ange are definitely related somehow.

As far as this sin Battler committed 6 years ago, I'm not sure. Could have been against Kyrie as the only information we know about Battler 6 years ago is that is when he left the Ushiromiya family when Rudolf remarried. Would make a lot of sense if he truly is her son.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

I've been playing through Unlimited Blade Works in Fate/Stay Night, and it's way better than Fate was. Tohsaka and Archer are far more compelling than Saber. Even though Tohsaka has some obnoxious tsundere stuff going on, she's still far better than 95+% of other anime/manga girls and generally has a relatively cheerful disposition. I just got past the part where she invites Shirou on a date, which is sort of like the Japanese equivalent of a woman becoming the president or something.

I'm not really looking forward to Heaven's Feel though; Sakura does not seem like a very interesting character, and I find it harder to get behind the idea of her being more of a focus. From what I've seen other people say about it, it sounds a lot more "anime" (for lack of a better way of describing it).

I should mention that I watched Fate/Zero, so I have some background on stuff like the Matou family and know that Sakura is Tohsaka's sister.

edit: One small thing I noticed is that Unlimited Blade Works does not abuse that "sad/dramatic" music (I'm sure that anyone who has played the game knows what I'm talking about) as much as Fate did. The whole "hill where Saber was killed while sad music plays" thing got really old. I would not be surprised if some iteration of that scene occurred at least 10 times. They've done it a little with respect to Archer, but it hasn't been run into the ground like it was with Saber (and Archer's history is also more interesting).

vvv Yeah, I'll probably still do it. I just hope that the romance between Shirou/Sakura doesn't have too big of a part in it.

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 10, 2013

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry
Even if you're not down with Sakura, Heaven's Feel also represents the best of many other characters (Rin, Rider, Kotomine, Ilya, arguably Shirou) and serves as a great finale to wrap the whole story up.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013

Heaven's Feel can be the most "anime" path... depending on what definition of "anime" you use.

E: And to me the Shriou/Sakura romance felt the most satisfying among the three... if we ignore the sex scenes...

Bholder fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 10, 2013

Green Tea Erotica
May 5, 2010

Anything you can do I can do BETTER

Ytlaya posted:

Words words words

It's hard to judge Heaven's Feel ahead of time, and especially how they handle Sakura because she gets such a small amount of exposure in Fate and UBW. I've always kinda thought this was done on purpose, since HF doesn't focus too much on anything but her. If they did they in Fate and UBW it'd be pretty repetitive. (Like the first few days of UBW were)

ADullMin
May 3, 2013

by Ralp

Bholder posted:

Heaven's Feel can be the most "anime" path... depending on what definition of "anime" you use.

E: And to me the Shriou/Sakura romance felt the most satisfying among the three... if we ignore the sex scenes...

Can we just ignore every type moon h scene

Ottumon
Dec 20, 2012
Totono is the first VN to make me feel helpless - I seem to be stuck. These repeating days were a fun idea at first but now I've been skipping through scenes for an hour or so, trying to make Miyuki mad. I'm wondering if I misunderstood what God said and I was given a two-step plan, not two choices for a plan. I can't even go back to check if I read that right. I must be doing something wrong, I can't imagine either actually needing to repeat all scenes ten or so times or this being the game trying to say it's over and pulling a total non-ending. It's quite frustrating.

Davzz
Jul 31, 2008
In the process of helping you solve this giant puzzle, I need to spoil some things, if only because I need a benchmark so you know you're on the right track. Here goes!

I hope you like carefully reading those repeating scenes. Like, actually write down anything that seems like it's information in Notepad or something.

You have to break out of the loop twice.

Piss Miyuki off a lot, refuse her offer to "reset the flags and affection level" until she kills you. You need to do it repeatedly, restarting the program even until you break out.

You'll be thrown back in the loop again after a scene and now you got to take a different route.

In the scene where Miyuki and the protagonist are shopping, choose to buy a cookbook.

Then, go to the scene where she asks you about food. Choose to cook (if you didn't buy the cookbook earlier, she'll force you to get takeout, so it's required). When given a choice, chase her out of the kitchen, use the small bag and then unlock the cellphone.

Now he's the annoying part: The cellphone is locked with a series of 10 questions. You MUST get all of them right consecutively. The questions are all super passive aggressive personality stuff like "What food do I like?" and the answers can all be found scattered throughout all the scenes.

And I'm pretty sure that at this point you'll be tempted to just look up a walkthrough to finish the quiz so here's the kicker: on each computer, all the answers are randomly generated according to a seed. Someone's else walkthrough would be completely useless except in an odd freak chance occurrence. I guess a walkthrough killed the creator's parents or something.

Once you're done with this, you're home-free though.


Well, once you're done, have fun.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

I finished Unlimited Blade Works and it was pretty good. I'm not entirely happy with the fact that Emiya managed to more or less win over Archer by just being incredibly stubborn and showing his mettle. I mean, we're talking about a guy who literally knows exactly what the endgame of Emiya's way of life is, what with literally being the same person and all. Hell, Emiya even acknowledges the fact that his views are irrational. I was hoping that somehow the story arc would end with him realizing that Archer was, in fact, right all along. Granted, him stopping in the middle of their fight and going "poo poo, I just realized that you're totally right. I've decided not to spend the rest of my life trying to save everyone" wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic (though I would have liked to have seen Archer's reaction to it, haha).

Nephilm
Jun 11, 2009

by Lowtax

Ytlaya posted:

I finished Unlimited Blade Works and it was pretty good. I'm not entirely happy with the fact that Emiya managed to more or less win over Archer by just being incredibly stubborn and showing his mettle. I mean, we're talking about a guy who literally knows exactly what the endgame of Emiya's way of life is, what with literally being the same person and all. Hell, Emiya even acknowledges the fact that his views are irrational. I was hoping that somehow the story arc would end with him realizing that Archer was, in fact, right all along. Granted, him stopping in the middle of their fight and going "poo poo, I just realized that you're totally right. I've decided not to spend the rest of my life trying to save everyone" wouldn't have been nearly as dramatic (though I would have liked to have seen Archer's reaction to it, haha).

Well, what the scene and the epilogue to it show us is that seeing Shirou fighting so hard made Archer remember how much he believed in things, even if they were ideals and thus impossible, even if they were borrowed, even if they led him to a sad and terrible end. He wasn't wrong to believe because they're a beautiful thing, and the flaw was in the execution.

The point is that Archer never stopped believing. Even after having grown so bitter that he gambled on the chance to kill his younger self and *maybe* that causing him to be completely erased from existence, deep down he still believed in the same ideal, and all it took to remind him of that was seeing Shirou giving his all even when confronted with the truth. That is why the conclusion is a simple, ephemeral "I wasn't wrong."


That said, time for Heavens Feel :getin:

Maybe watch Fate/Zero first, to see where Kiritsugu wanting to be a superhero took him.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Nephilm posted:

Well, what the scene and the epilogue to it show us is that seeing Shirou fighting so hard made Archer remember how much he believed in things, even if they were ideals and thus impossible, even if they were borrowed, even if they led him to a sad and terrible end. He wasn't wrong to believe because they're a beautiful thing, and the flaw was in the execution.

The point is that Archer never stopped believing. Even after having grown so bitter that he gambled on the chance to kill his younger self and *maybe* that causing him to be completely erased from existence, deep down he still believed in the same ideal, and all it took to remind him of that was seeing Shirou giving his all even when confronted with the truth. That is why the conclusion is a simple, ephemeral "I wasn't wrong."


That said, time for Heavens Feel :getin:

Maybe watch Fate/Zero first, to see where Kiritsugu wanting to be a superhero took him.

I actually watched Fate/Zero before playing any of Fate/Stay Night, so I knew quite a few spoilers going into things. One thing I'm not totally clear on in light of the whole superhero thing:

I think Archer mentions at some point that he ended up realizing that being a superhero - which seems to be what Emiya's whole deal is - wasn't the way to go and that it's better to just protect those close to you. It seems kinda strange for him to be convinced by his younger self that, no - it actually is better to be a superhero; particularly in light of the fact that we know that doesn't turn out well and that his whole "protect only those in front of your eyes" ideology is the better prospect. Rather than looking at just a person with ideals and a person without ideals, it seems more like there are two different types of ideals at play (and, particularly from Fate/Zero, we know that the younger Emiya's ideals probably aren't a great idea).

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!

Ytlaya posted:

I actually watched Fate/Zero before playing any of Fate/Stay Night, so I knew quite a few spoilers going into things. One thing I'm not totally clear on in light of the whole superhero thing:

I think Archer mentions at some point that he ended up realizing that being a superhero - which seems to be what Emiya's whole deal is - wasn't the way to go and that it's better to just protect those close to you. It seems kinda strange for him to be convinced by his younger self that, no - it actually is better to be a superhero; particularly in light of the fact that we know that doesn't turn out well and that his whole "protect only those in front of your eyes" ideology is the better prospect. Rather than looking at just a person with ideals and a person without ideals, it seems more like there are two different types of ideals at play (and, particularly from Fate/Zero, we know that the younger Emiya's ideals probably aren't a great idea).

I think the thing you are missing is the reason for those ideals. (Fate/UBW/Zero spoilers) The trouble with Shirou's ideal, and the trouble with Shirou on the whole is that his ideals are not really his own. He never went through the experience Kiritsugu did, never made a choice about trying for world peace or whatever because war is hell. Kiritsugu was a driven man, but he was driven by a cool calculation.

Instead, Shirou went with those ideals because of a sense of survivor guilt that he alone survived the fire, and that being a hero was what Kiritsugu wanted, and therefore he should take on that wish. These are not actually good reasons. Not least because (with Zero) we see that very likely Kiritsugu would not have wanted Shirou to take on his path. But that overall these are the reasons a child might make, ultimately selfish, ultimately empty. If Shirou takes the path of Archer purely for his own satisfaction, purely to live up to Kiritsugu, to the extent that, as Kotomine said, he should rejoice that there is a disaster so that he gets a chance to be the hero... then that will inevitable lead to only misery, disappointment, and destruction.

The transformation in UBW is that Shirou takes ownership of his ideal. Archer is prepared to confront a foolish, dishonest boy, sees instead a man that understands that his ideal can take him bad places, but who has regained the kernel of value within the original concept. So what if Shirou will end up exhausted and broken? So what if he will be trapped into a forever war? He's not doing this to be happy and satisfied, he's doing this to save lives. Thus he defeats the nihilism of Archer.

Kiritsugu's ideal and the mind of steel ideal seem somewhat different from Archer and/or Shirou UBW. Kiritsugu seems to be about ruthless pursuit of vengeance, or the safest possible solution at all times, whereas Archer/Shirou seems more compassionate. Kiritsugu's dilemma is about the annihilation of threat, and Archer's dilemma is about the annihilation of the self.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Oct 11, 2013

Ottumon
Dec 20, 2012
Davzz: Many thanks, that worked.

I finished Totono just now. I'm quite at loss for words. The game took all my expectations and went beyond them in most cases. I really don't know how to describe the experience without spoiling anything. I still stand behind my recommendation.

At first when Shinichi too started talking back to me and the game actually seemed to be close to the end, I backed up my save folder :ssh: even though I was unsure if that would help me at all. Either way, I don't intend to use it any more. This is now the second game that makes me not want to get all the endings not due to being poo poo.

Everything after the second update was great, except that I kind of think my way of brute-forcing the 10 questions part wasn't the expected method. Instead of going back and writing things down I just tried random choices if I didn't remember the answer. It worked quite well.

I chose Aoi because broken promises or not she didn't beat the main character up with a bat.


Also: I feel that I had enough fun with this game to warrant getting a hard copy. I've never ordered Japanese games online so I'd much appreciate if someone helped me find one.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Fangz posted:

I think the thing you are missing is the reason for those ideals. (Fate/UBW/Zero spoilers) The trouble with Shirou's ideal, and the trouble with Shirou on the whole is that his ideals are not really his own. He never went through the experience Kiritsugu did, never made a choice about trying for world peace or whatever because war is hell. Kiritsugu was a driven man, but he was driven by a cool calculation.

Instead, Shirou went with those ideals because of a sense of survivor guilt that he alone survived the fire, and that being a hero was what Kiritsugu wanted, and therefore he should take on that wish. These are not actually good reasons. Not least because (with Zero) we see that very likely Kiritsugu would not have wanted Shirou to take on his path. But that overall these are the reasons a child might make, ultimately selfish, ultimately empty. If Shirou takes the path of Archer purely for his own satisfaction, purely to live up to Kiritsugu, to the extent that, as Kotomine said, he should rejoice that there is a disaster so that he gets a chance to be the hero... then that will inevitable lead to only misery, disappointment, and destruction.

The transformation in UBW is that Shirou takes ownership of his ideal. Archer is prepared to confront a foolish, dishonest boy, sees instead a man that understands that his ideal can take him bad places, but who has regained the kernel of value within the original concept. So what if Shirou will end up exhausted and broken? So what if he will be trapped into a forever war? He's not doing this to be happy and satisfied, he's doing this to save lives. Thus he defeats the nihilism of Archer.

Kiritsugu's ideal and the mind of steel ideal seem somewhat different from Archer and/or Shirou UBW. Kiritsugu seems to be about ruthless pursuit of vengeance, or the safest possible solution at all times, whereas Archer/Shirou seems more compassionate. Kiritsugu's dilemma is about the annihilation of threat, and Archer's dilemma is about the annihilation of the self.


Thanks, this post cleared quite a few things up. The only comment I have is that I seem to remember it explicitly being stated that Shirou's motive was not survivor's guilt, and that it instead was that he remembered how happy saving him made Kiritsugu and wanted to emulate that.

Did they ever explain how Archer survived being skewered by Gilgamesh? I think they said that he stayed around by sheer force of will, but he was already about to face away before he was skewered.

In an unrelated note related to Fate/UBW, it seems kinda bizarre that they portray Ilya as both good/innocent and a complete and utter sociopath. It would have been one thing if she went "oh my god, what have I been doing" after Berserker was killed in Fate, but she didn't seem to show much remorse at all and I don't think it was ever implied that she was being "not herself" while contracted with Berserker. The whole "being a child" thing might be a factor if not for the fact that she, well, isn't; isn't she actually supposed to be older than Shirou?

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005

Clapping Larry
Keep in mind that Fate/Zero is generally not regarded as something you should watch/read before FSN, so you already have some insights into her character and background that you shouldn't technically know just yet.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012

Ytlaya posted:

Thanks, this post cleared quite a few things up. The only comment I have is that I seem to remember it explicitly being stated that Shirou's motive was not survivor's guilt, and that it instead was that he remembered how happy saving him made Kiritsugu and wanted to emulate that.

Did they ever explain how Archer survived being skewered by Gilgamesh? I think they said that he stayed around by sheer force of will, but he was already about to face away before he was skewered.

In an unrelated note related to Fate/UBW, it seems kinda bizarre that they portray Ilya as both good/innocent and a complete and utter sociopath. It would have been one thing if she went "oh my god, what have I been doing" after Berserker was killed in Fate, but she didn't seem to show much remorse at all and I don't think it was ever implied that she was being "not herself" while contracted with Berserker. The whole "being a child" thing might be a factor if not for the fact that she, well, isn't; isn't she actually supposed to be older than Shirou?

Regarding Ilya, when Jubstacheit modified her to become the Grail vessel, he stunted her physical and mental development. Jubastacheit also raised her to resent Kiritsugu and kill other Masters. Naturally, she's pretty messed up.

Incidentally, this is also that reason Saber didn't recognize Ilya as Irisviel's daughter (at least at first); she knew that Irisviel's daughter was older than Ilya appeared to be.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Oct 11, 2013

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Soho Joe
Aug 11, 2006

the torment of existence
weighed against
the horror of nonbeing
Nap Ghost
ML Alternative, Chapter 7, makes up for some of the drier sections early on. Awesome time-reset fakeout, but now rejected demons from Doom just emerged from the aether, everyone is out of their skulls on amphetamines, and Takeru is charging to his imminent death armed with paintballs and harsh language.

About how far through am I, and does it keep this happy-go-lucky tone for a while longer :shepface: ?

Edit: So that just happened :geno:

Soho Joe fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Oct 11, 2013

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