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Kurtofan posted:I'm always pretty sad that my country (France) is so poo poo at foreign languages, I think it comes from the way languages are taught in school, mostly writing and barely any oral teaching (no conversation exercises for example), I mean I remember doing a few debates in German but that's pretty much it. This isn't a definitive explanation but I think French and German are too big. Let me explain. In the larger European countries like France, Germany, Spain and Italy, there is enough funding and demand to dub foreign (almost always English-language) movies and TV series. Meanwhile in smaller countries like the Nordic countries and the Netherlands, everything is subtitled instead. Even if it isn't the root cause, it certainly has facilitated learning at least one foreign language for people in those countries. From Wikipedia:  Blue - Dubbing only for children: Otherwise solely subtitles Orange - Mixed areas: Countries using occasionally full-cast dubbing otherwise solely subtitles Yellow - Voice-over: Countries using usually one or just a couple of voice actors whereas the original soundtrack persists Red - General dubbing: Countries using exclusively a full-cast dubbing, both for films and for TV series Striped red/blue - Countries which occasionally produce own dubbings but generally using dubbing versions of other countries since their languages are quite similar to each other and the audience is also able to understand it without any problems. (Belgium and Slovakia) I suspect this reaches other fields of entertainment and culture as well, like literature, with people reading non-translated English literature because it either is not translated at all, or is not translated very well, or not quickly enough to satisfy readers who want to read the newest books right away. Something like Harry Potter - the English versions were a big hit because it always takes at least some extra time to get the translation out of the door.
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Oct 13, 2013 10:12
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Oct 13, 2013 10:36
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Does this map only apply to TV? I know that in the Czech Republic almost all adult movies are subtitled in theaters, only the children's stuff gets dubbed regularly.
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Oct 13, 2013 10:51
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mobby_6kl posted:Does this map only apply to TV? I know that in the Czech Republic almost all adult movies are subtitled in theaters, only the children's stuff gets dubbed regularly. 
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Oct 13, 2013 11:22
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Antti posted:I suspect this reaches other fields of entertainment and culture as well, like literature, with people reading non-translated English literature because it either is not translated at all, or is not translated very well, or not quickly enough to satisfy readers who want to read the newest books right away. Something like Harry Potter - the English versions were a big hit because it always takes at least some extra time to get the translation out of the door. Dubbing is really important. Everybody in my country hears and reads English every single day if you turn on a tv or the radio. At the same time because the country is so small we 1) Travel to other language spheres more often 2) Spend more time on foreign language web sites because there's simply less of them in our native tongue. Like a Norwegian version of SA would be 500 people or so. I always wanted to know what nationalities are on SA - it seems there's a lot more Scandinavians and Dutch than there are Spanish, French or German but that's just a hunch.
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Oct 13, 2013 11:23
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This is just anecdotal, obviously, but I used to live in a large student dorm with a lot of foreign students, and in my experience, the students who were the absolute worst at foreign languages were the Spanish. A friend of mine who teaches Dutch at university level says the same, and adds that the Spanish also tend to vastly overrate their own skills at foreign languages due to the average skill in their home country being so lovely. Dubbing and the way languages are taught definitely play a role, but so does motivation. For example, I've known several British people who smugly said that there's no need for them to learn any other language because many people speak theirs, and then proceeded to make fun of foreign accents.
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Oct 13, 2013 11:53
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Antti posted:Striped red/blue - Countries which occasionally produce own dubbings but generally using dubbing versions of other countries since their languages are quite similar to each other and the audience is also able to understand it without any problems. (Belgium and Slovakia) Eh, the true reason here is that French-speaking media in Belgium dub (or used to dub a lot, it's improved in recent years) and Dutch-speaking media always use subtitles.
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Oct 13, 2013 11:56
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Soviet Commubot posted:And on that note a linguistic census published a month or two ago in Scotland showed Scottish Gaelic as having only lost around 1,000 speakers in the last 10 years, as opposed to a nearly 8,000 speaker drop in the previous 10 years, which makes the language seem a bit more likely to stick around for a bit as they seem to be at least halting the decline. In Brittany we don't expect the number of speakers to stabilize for another 10 years or so and it will probably be at probably around 100,000 speakers. Of course, if the language had any level of state support or even recognition like all of the other living Celtic languages that might be a bit different. It wasn't even a drop of 1,000 speakers - the news was using rounded figures in every report and the actual drop is more like 600. The number of under-20s speaking the language actually increased, too, as did the number of people who can read and write it, so as you can imagine I'm pretty drat happy about it. There was a general feeling that the decline couldn't be stopped or even slowed and that this census would be the death knell of official support for the language (going under 50,000 speakers in Scotland has been repeatedly bandied about as the cut-off point for funding) but it turned out not to be the case at all. The language's future looks brighter than it has in a long time. Of course a fair amount of the media is now in full attack mode, running stories about how it's been 'revealed' that there are only 58,000 speakers and claiming that hundreds of millions of pounds each year is being 'wasted' (funding is nowhere near as high as tabloids are claiming and it's part of the education and arts budget rather than a specific Gaelic fund anyway). The decline of Breton is very sad - it seems like such a catastrophic drop-off in numbers.
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Oct 13, 2013 12:46
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Kavak posted:What're the other languages in eastern Massachusetts? Chinese and Portuguese? Portuguese and Portuguese Creole, I'd imagine.
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Oct 13, 2013 13:53
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Dubbing is definitely important, but I think the educational system's emphasis on language learning is still a bigger factor- I mean, according to the trilingualism map, both Italy and Germany are doing pretty well in that regard despite all the media available in their own languages.the jizz taxi posted:For example, I've known several British people who smugly said that there's no need for them to learn any other language because many people speak theirs, and then proceeded to make fun of foreign accents. Have you actually heard people say that non-facetiously? It's a common joke, but outside of some "look at how dumb Americans are" videos I've never heard it said with a straight face.
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Oct 13, 2013 14:06
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Took the data from kustomkarkommando's link and made some maps: Dubbing vs. subtitles seems like the subject where Europeans are most divided, though I kinda doubt people would rate it as important as the questions below.  Still, this map makes it pretty obvious why us Danes look down on the Germans and their predilection for dubbing. (Any Dutch person that can weigh in on the Dutch view?) Not much to say here. I'm not surprised the French are part of the less egalitarian countries, but I am surprised the Netherlands join them. Have the Dutch just decided that everyone should really just speak English?  This map suggests to me that might be the case.  Silly Brits, you're supposed to be Europhobic. Or are the working from the assumption that the common language would be English? Would be interesting to a map where they asked the question if everyone in Europe should be able to speak a common language that was not the mother language of the person being asked. Anosmoman posted:Dubbing is really important. Everybody in my country hears and reads English every single day if you turn on a tv or the radio. At the same time because the country is so small we 1) Travel to other language spheres more often 2) Spend more time on foreign language web sites because there's simply less of them in our native tongue. Like a Norwegian version of SA would be 500 people or so. I always wanted to know what nationalities are on SA - it seems there's a lot more Scandinavians and Dutch than there are Spanish, French or German but that's just a hunch. Koramei posted:Dubbing is definitely important, but I think the educational system's emphasis on language learning is still a bigger factor- I mean, according to the trilingualism map, both Italy and Germany are doing pretty well in that regard despite all the media available in their own languages.
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Oct 13, 2013 14:11
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True, and my evidence is really just anecdotal- it was much easier to get around and talk to people in Germany using just English than in like, France and Italy, in my experience; and a couple 'o German old dudes I know really play up the importance of foreign language learning in their education. Also, not a map (  ), but more from kustomkarkommando's link: I wish there was a map of that, since I'd really like to see it weighted by country. I'd have never guessed that holidays actually win out over media. It's interesting to see the effect of the internet, too- I'd actually have thought it'd be stronger than it is. Koramei fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 14:38
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Poland is a special case and I always laugh my rear end off whenever I visit. Lots of shows where you have a single man doing the voice over for all characters, in a deep, unemotional voice.
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Oct 13, 2013 14:42
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Medieval Medic posted:Poland is a special case and I always laugh my rear end off whenever I visit. Lots of shows where you have a single man doing the voice over for all characters, in a deep, unemotional voice. I was fascinated by some second-rate Sherlock Holmes (not any of the British ones I know of) series on TV Moscow back in 1986 or 1987 or something, because all the voices were done by a woman. Of course I didn't know what the gently caress she was saying but I'd watch anything on satellite back then just for the novelty. One show was apparently just about an old dude riding a tractor with a turnip load down some roads 
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Oct 13, 2013 14:46
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the jizz taxi posted:This is just anecdotal, obviously, but I used to live in a large student dorm with a lot of foreign students, and in my experience, the students who were the absolute worst at foreign languages were the Spanish the jizz taxi posted:Dutch-speaking media always use subtitles.
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Oct 13, 2013 15:00
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Jerry Cotton posted:I was fascinated by some second-rate Sherlock Holmes (not any of the British ones I know of) series on TV Moscow back in 1986 or 1987 or something, because all the voices were done by a woman.
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Oct 13, 2013 15:14
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Jerry Cotton posted:One show was apparently just about an old dude riding a tractor with a turnip load down some roads This is pretty much russia.txt 
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Oct 13, 2013 15:25
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John Charity Spring posted:
I'm sorry, it was the only way to preserve the unity of the Republic 
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Oct 13, 2013 15:27
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R. Mute posted:Italians tho I've observed half an Italian school day and unless it was an unusually bad Italian school I'm amazed that Italians ever learn anything. (I have to assume it was actually a 'good' school because why would they show it to foreigners otherwise?)
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Oct 13, 2013 16:05
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3peat posted:Oh and as a funny francophile anecdote, when I was a kid a teacher used to tell us that latin languages are inherently superior in fostering creativity, and that's why WE LATINS are more creative than everyone else, like how all the best writers were french, all the best painters or sculptors were italian, etc, as opposed to germaniac languages which "render the germaniac mind incapable of any creative thought", thus no english, german or american literature is worth reading. Yes, Germany and England are notorious for not having any worthwhile literature.  the jizz taxi posted:For example, I've known several British people who smugly said that there's no need for them to learn any other language because many people speak theirs, and then proceeded to make fun of foreign accents. This is especially funny since the dominance of the English language is almost entirely due to the United States. At my last job we would often get calls from British clients, and I remember one of my colleagues complaining that they insisted on speaking their 'weird dialect' instead of proper English. the jizz taxi posted:Eh, the true reason here is that French-speaking media in Belgium dub (or used to dub a lot, it's improved in recent years) and Dutch-speaking media always use subtitles. Right, it doesn't really convey much meaningful information when you treat Belgium as a single country on this type of map. Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 16:21
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Phlegmish posted:This is especially funny since the dominance of the English language is almost entirely due to the United States.
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Oct 13, 2013 17:05
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Phlegmish posted:This is especially funny since the dominance of the English language is almost entirely due to the United States. At my last job we would often get calls from British clients, and I remember one of my colleagues complaining that they insisted on speaking their 'weird dialect' instead of proper English. And who, pray tell, is the dominance of the English language in the United States due to? 
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Oct 13, 2013 17:13
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R. Mute posted:Except with children's shows, obviously. Although that isn't entirely true either. Things like the Simpsons are subbed, which is incidentally how I already had a solid grasp of English at 12. Even stranger, channels like Nickelodeon and the Disney Channel often show Dutch dubbed shows during the day but then in the evening show the same things but now subbed.
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Oct 13, 2013 17:16
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Jerry Cotton posted:And who, pray tell, is the dominance of the English language in the United States due to?
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Oct 13, 2013 17:16
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Jerry Cotton posted:And who, pray tell, is the dominance of the English language in the United States due to? I just wanted to put those anecdotal Brits in their place. Can't you let me have this?
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Oct 13, 2013 17:39
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Medieval Medic posted:Poland is a special case and I always laugh my rear end off whenever I visit. Lots of shows where you have a single man doing the voice over for all characters, in a deep, unemotional voice. Old-timey Swedish dubs are like that too. Swedish television shows From All of Us to All of You (1958 goddamn) every Christmas Eve, and you'll have Donald Duck belting out the quacky rant to end all rants and the Swedish voice actor just barely raises his voice.
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Oct 13, 2013 18:04
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I find voice over annoying enough in documentaries and in the news, I can't imagine it for a movie or a series, that must be dreadful.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:39
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Jerry Cotton posted:And who, pray tell, is the dominance of the English language in the United States due to? The French.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:40
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No, the Germans.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:43
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Kurtofan posted:I find voice over annoying enough in documentaries and in the news, I can't imagine it for a movie or a series, that must be dreadful. At least when they do it in an English speaking nation; they get the genders right. In Eastern Europe; any dubs seem to be done by the same, bored man regardless of the gender or age of the character. I ended up watching this awful Brazilian soap opera when I was in Lithuania; because it was just the funniest thing ever!
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Oct 13, 2013 19:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Took the data from kustomkarkommando's link and made some maps: Dutch people generally look down on the German fondness for dubbing and make fun of it a lot. And because almost everyone is pretty good at English most people feel that the French should just get over themselves and speak English like normal people, when dealing with foreigners. Because of the media we consume most people quickly lose their German and/or French language skills from school, but we keep using our English.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:51
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ekuNNN posted:Dutch people generally look down on the German fondness for dubbing and make fun of it a lot. And because almost everyone is pretty good at English most people feel that the French should just get over themselves and speak English like normal people, when dealing with foreigners.
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Oct 13, 2013 20:07
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I expect the primary reason the Dutch and other smaller peoples say they prefer subs is simply that quality dubs are not available or only available for children's media, rather than any intrinsic cosmopolitanism. Sour grapes, in other words. (See also: American anime fans) edit: It seems strange that Portugal is on the sub side. Are Brazilian dubs not available or unacceptable to the Portuguese? Grey Area fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 22:42
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Grey Area posted:I expect the primary reason the Dutch and other smaller peoples say they prefer subs is simply that quality dubs are not available or only available for children's media, rather than any intrinsic cosmopolitanism. Sour grapes, in other words. (See also: American anime fans)
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Oct 13, 2013 22:52
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Grey Area posted:edit: It seems strange that Portugal is on the sub side. Are Brazilian dubs not available or unacceptable to the Portuguese? I imagine it'd be a little irritating to Brits if EVERY dub available was in an American accent, or vice versa.
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Oct 13, 2013 22:57
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It also seems like it would be much cheaper to sub a movie than to dub it.
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Oct 13, 2013 23:19
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ekuNNN posted:It also seems like it would be much cheaper to sub a movie than to dub it. A lot of outfits use the exact same amount of money, meaning the dubs are done by friends and relatives.
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Oct 13, 2013 23:22
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reignonyourparade posted:I imagine it'd be a little irritating to Brits if EVERY dub available was in an American accent, or vice versa. Children's movies on DVD in Belgium often have 2 dutch dubs, one with a Flemish accent, one with a Dutch accent. Not there for the children, because they watch nickelodeon/disney channel cartoons that are only available in the Netherlands accent (why dub twice?). It's there to placate the parents - older people tend to dislike a dutch accent. Perhaps the same is going on in Portugal. And portuguese and Brazilian is further apart than Flemish and Dutch.
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Oct 13, 2013 23:26
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Grey Area posted:edit: It seems strange that Portugal is on the sub side. Are Brazilian dubs not available or unacceptable to the Portuguese? It's an odd legacy left from the fascist regime. Dubbing was a big thing when it came to our shores in the late 30's, but the costs and technical hurdles made the process too expensive, then Salazar in the late 40's killed it all together with a law. Basically the law forbade the exhibition of foreign funded films to be dubbed with the Portuguese language(Unless it was a film made in Brazil) The only exceptions were foreign films that had Portugal or a Portuguese character in relevance. But the real aim of the law was that due to the low literacy numbers, most Portuguese didn't know how to read, so they wouldn't go watch foreign films at all, which pleased the regime a lot. The first Portuguese(Pt-Pt) dub of a foreign film was in 1994 with The Lion King, and most children films nowadays are dubbed, but with no industry or tradition, dubbing never really caught on. Even during the the last decade there was a lot of children shows that came dubbed in Spanish(Portuguese subs of course), cause there simply wasn't enough people to do all the shows.
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Oct 13, 2013 23:45
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I think another reason why Scandinavians, the Dutch, Flemings and Slovenians (apparently) prefer subbing over dubbing is because the actual physical or cultural distance to 'bigger' cultures is smaller, so they're more familiar with how other languages sound. If you grow up in the middle of nowhere in France, you're unlikely to be confronted with anything that isn't French, whereas in Flanders, you usually have to travel less than 60km to hit a language border at some point.
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Oct 14, 2013 08:36
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