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shrughes posted:Who memorizes big O performance of things? You should be able to re-derive it for any algorithm you want to use or are shown (if not extremely sophisticated), on the spot. Good luck deriving a tight upper bound for union find on the spot but it's easy to establish an upper bound Also asymptotic notation elides constant factors and usually assumes a cache less model which makes many algorithms impractical A good way to see that is to look at the wiki articles for multiplication algorithms. Many of them are only practical at astronomically large numbers Being able to know when and where asymptotic analysis applies is really useful
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Oct 11, 2013 21:54
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JawnV6 posted:Do you understand the point of an interview? Yes, it's a two-way street. You want to know if I have the skills / qualifications / social capability to work for you, and I want to know if I would want to work for you in terms of culture, technical fit, and other things.
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Oct 11, 2013 22:06
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shrughes posted:Who memorizes big O performance of things? You should be able to re-derive it for any algorithm you want to use or are shown (if not extremely sophisticated), on the spot. I'd say less "extremely sophisticated" and more "at all sophisticated". Union find with path compression is easy-peasy, but the amortized bounds on its operations use the Ackermann function. Or the linear bound on heapify, which is within my abilities, but probably not those of most people in the thread.
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Oct 11, 2013 22:09
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coffeetable posted:Or the linear bound on heapify, which is within my abilities, but probably not those of most people in the thread. lol did you get your third of a phd at clown college
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Oct 11, 2013 22:15
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FamDav posted:lol did you get your third of a phd at clown college what are the programmers outside my clown college not incompetent mathematicians
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Oct 11, 2013 22:44
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Chasiubao posted:Yes, it's a two-way street. You want to know if I have the skills / qualifications / social capability to work for you, and I want to know if I would want to work for you in terms of culture, technical fit, and other things. Are you actually suiting up to defend the "memorized big o" strawman or just an alien learning our concept of "context" in a discussion?
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Oct 11, 2013 22:45
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JawnV6 posted:Are you actually suiting up to defend the "memorized big o" strawman or just an alien learning our concept of "context" in a discussion? Probably the latter.
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Oct 11, 2013 22:49
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shrughes posted:Who memorizes big O performance of things? You should be able to re-derive it for any algorithm you want to use or are shown (if not extremely sophisticated), on the spot. For popular data structures like a hash table you should just know that usually get() is O(1), or that quicksort is usually O(nlogn). We're not talking about huge amounts of info to memorize here.
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Oct 12, 2013 01:26
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Cicero posted:This is like saying it's pointless to memorize times tables because hey you can just re-derive them by adding a bunch. That's how I remember how to do like half the multiplications on the times tables.
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Oct 12, 2013 01:41
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Cicero posted:This is like saying it's pointless to memorize times tables because hey you can just re-derive them by adding a bunch. You should know that a good hash table is O(1) (la la la key length) and that good sorting algos are O(n log n), or at least do O(n log n) comparisons, without knowing anything about quicksort. But it's not like this info should be memorized -- it's something you should have picked up and remembered regardless, due to use and usefulness. But that's still something that should take 2.3 seconds and (in quicksort's case) 4.9 seconds to rederive if you happen to have forgotten. ("expected 2 comparisons at 50% fill factor" takes 2.3 seconds, and "divide and conquer with linear work (blah pivot selection)" takes 4.9 seconds)
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Oct 12, 2013 05:33
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Hey dudes, for an entry-level resume (straight out of college, did internships at no-name company), should I even bother putting stuff I'm familiar with but don't have significant knowledge of on my resume*? Specific cases: took a Databases class, learned enough SQL to get a B+, never seriously used it; started playing with LUA a week ago, know general principles that make LUA special, but would probably still need to regularly refer to the API for the basics. Should I just put SQL and LUA on my resume and drat the guns, put something like "Fundamental SQL/LUA" on my resume, or leave it off entirely? *And yes, I recognize having college-level knowledge of Java, C++, and C# in the context of Unity is not the least bit significant in the grand scheme of things, but we're talking about babby's first software job.
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Oct 12, 2013 21:37
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I graduated in June and got a decent dev job at a startup, doing full stack web development. I am immensely bored or frustrated 100% of the time. This isn't intellectually fulfilling, I feel like all the coding I do is just banging things into submission, gratification feels impossible and I don't see a way out. I'm starting to doubt if I made the right decision going into software development, and I'm wondering if I need to run the gently caress back to school to do something else. Help.
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Oct 12, 2013 21:41
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DotFortune posted:I graduated in June and got a decent dev job at a startup, doing full stack web development. I am immensely bored or frustrated 100% of the time. This isn't intellectually fulfilling, I feel like all the coding I do is just banging things into submission, gratification feels impossible and I don't see a way out. I'm starting to doubt if I made the right decision going into software development, and I'm wondering if I need to run the gently caress back to school to do something else. Help. Possibly looking into project management might be an option, or maybe you just hate web development and need to be doing something differently. However, if you simply can't take the day-to-day of programming in itself after a few months, it likely isn't for you (there's nothing wrong with this, as it isn't for everyone). I would hope for your sake that it's the context of the role you're in right now and not that you hate programming in general, as you really should have been able to figure that out during the first year or two of school. boho posted:Hey dudes, for an entry-level resume (straight out of college, did internships at no-name company), should I even bother putting stuff I'm familiar with but don't have significant knowledge of on my resume*? Specific cases: took a Databases class, learned enough SQL to get a B+, never seriously used it; started playing with LUA a week ago, know general principles that make LUA special, but would probably still need to regularly refer to the API for the basics. If you feel comfortable enough using a language in the context of solving some modest problems using that language, list it. In most cases, no one cares about the level of experience you have with it as a college grad unless it's the primary language used for a given role (and even then there is often flexibility with this), at which point you should probably understand your level of comfort for applying.
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Oct 12, 2013 21:51
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DotFortune posted:I graduated in June and got a decent dev job at a startup, doing full stack web development. I am immensely bored or frustrated 100% of the time. This isn't intellectually fulfilling, I feel like all the coding I do is just banging things into submission, gratification feels impossible and I don't see a way out. I'm starting to doubt if I made the right decision going into software development, and I'm wondering if I need to run the gently caress back to school to do something else. Help. You got a personal project, something that isn't webdev? Software is a vast field. You should explore it a lil before you write it all off. coffeetable fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Oct 12, 2013 |
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Oct 12, 2013 21:54
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gucci void main posted:If you feel comfortable enough using a language in the context of solving some modest problems using that language, list it. In most cases, no one cares about the level of experience you have with it as a college grad unless it's the primary language used for a given role (and even then there is often flexibility with this), at which point you should probably understand your level of comfort for applying. Aside from knocking the rust off in terms of syntax/function names through a dinner date with the API, yeah, I'm comfortable with things that fall under the "junior programmer" scope. Our degree program had us doing work that I would consider to be of at least a junior level (if these horror stories about FizzBuzz are any indication). I'm more curious about, say, applying for a junior-level job that wants "SQL experience" (so pretty much 99% of the jobs I've seen). If you go to w3schools.com's SQL page, I know the "Basic" section (SELECT FROM WHERE, ORDER BY, and the basic logic like AND/OR) plus a special guest of Primary/Foreign keys. In the context of applying for a junior position, would you think that knowledge would be enough to put SQL on a resume? I mean I think a chimp could learn that stuff, but then there are people getting interviews that can't do FizzBuzz so I don't know anymore.
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Oct 12, 2013 22:35
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boho posted:Aside from knocking the rust off in terms of syntax/function names through a dinner date with the API, yeah, I'm comfortable with things that fall under the "junior programmer" scope. Our degree program had us doing work that I would consider to be of at least a junior level (if these horror stories about FizzBuzz are any indication). Speaking as someone who is a part-time operations engineer(basic SQL and scripting) and does this poo poo all the time, you should really know basic data types, table constraints/structure, and things like joins/limits/etc. Basically how to query tables to satisfy basic business rules, and update them as well. You don't need to have expert knowledge in any of these things, but know enough about the underlying concepts to google what you need to know and learn it in 5-10 minutes. No one expects a junior to have a perfect working knowledge of that kind of thing, unless you're applying to Google or Facebook or something.
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Oct 12, 2013 23:10
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gucci void main posted:If you feel comfortable enough using a language in the context of solving some modest problems using that language, list it. In most cases, no one cares about the level of experience you have with it as a college grad unless it's the primary language used for a given role (and even then there is often flexibility with this), at which point you should probably understand your level of comfort for applying. If you feel comfortable answering interview questions based on said languages, put it on. But never call yourself a C++ expert or they'll find like, loving Stroustrup, or his company-equivalent, to test your knowledge.
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Oct 13, 2013 04:13
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You should never use subjective skill level terms like "expert" on a resume or in a direct interview, because it seems to encourage immature interviewers to try and "match wits" with you based on their own subjective interpretation of that term, rather than vetting you for the job at hand. If a company employee asks you for a skill level, answer in terms of what you've done.
Gazpacho fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 06:15
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Gazpacho posted:You should never use subjective skill level terms like "expert" on a resume or in a direct interview, because it seems to encourage immature interviewers to try and "match wits" with you based on their own subjective interpretation of that term
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Oct 13, 2013 14:10
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I said I was proficient in both Java and C++ once, and I got a 2 hour interview entirely about the differences between the languages. Never again 
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Oct 13, 2013 17:12
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Rating yourself as an expert on anything in an interview is just setting yourself up for failure, because the follow up questions will be poo poo that only someone who literally wrote a book on __ language would know. Just say you feel that you are proficient or experienced in __ and then give examples/context of what you've done and know.
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Oct 13, 2013 17:17
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kitten smoothie posted:I don't really think it's an effort to match wits, because everyone in the room knows full well that someone who's a good fit for a junior position still has a long way to go before they're "expert" in anything. More like a passive aggressive way to call the candidate a liar. He wasn't limiting it to the junior position situation. If you're in for any position, including a senior one, and you call yourself an expert in some domain, it will provoke an "oh really?" reaction. And you're hosed, unless you actually wrote the book.
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Oct 13, 2013 17:25
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On this subject, I've also had the reverse happen: I was called in an interview to replace the scheduled interviewer which was in a phone meeting running late, and found to my horror that the person whom I was supposed to be interviewing for embedded/C/Linux knowledge was the maintainer of a substantial Linux kernel subsystem (easily verified on a laptop with the git tree). I bailed out of the interview because I couldn't see any good coming out of interviewing someone that was clearly more skilled in the matter as I was. HR told me later that I should have gone forward with it anyway, just in case. A bit like FizzBuzz-ing people with CS degrees, I guess. quote:I said I was proficient in both Java and C++ once, and I got a 2 hour interview entirely about the differences between the languages. Never again That doesn't sound too bad, though I can't imagine much jobs where it's sensible to focus for 2 hours interviewing on that particular subject.
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Oct 13, 2013 17:48
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Skuto posted:A bit like FizzBuzz-ing people with CS degrees, I guess. I've seen several people with CS degrees fail FizzBuzz.
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Oct 13, 2013 18:06
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Ithaqua posted:I've seen several people with CS degrees fail FizzBuzz. That was the point. I guess you might find that someone who's an ace programmer in his man-cave panics and stiffens up if he has to code under pressure. Or has real problems catching on if he has to work outside his comfort zone & known codebase. Or turns out to be insufferable in a discussion. That said, interviewing someone that is more skilled than you can be quite a minefield.
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Oct 13, 2013 18:23
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I'm kind of glad the first time I saw Fizzbuzz it was outside an interview, because my first thought was "this is a perfect time for a switch statement with a fallthrough!"*. I wrote the switch and was about to fill in the Fizzbuzz code and went "what the gently caress am I even doing right now?" (It ends up kind of ugly with the conditional break) * In a language that allows logical expressions in switch statements, not C where it has to be a constant integer. e: Though fizzbuzz is one of those things where whichever way I do it I feel like it's ugly and would look so much better some other way. I am literally never happy with my solution to it, and I've probably written 5-6 different solutions. Linear Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 18:37
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Jsor posted:e: Though fizzbuzz is one of those things where whichever way I do it I feel like it's ugly and would look so much better some other way. I am literally never happy with my solution to it, and I've probably written 5-6 different solutions. There's only one right way to do Fizz Buzz the enterprise way
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Oct 13, 2013 18:44
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So, I'm a soon-to-be CS grad who has a job offer from one of the big four; haven't accepted it yet though. Pretty much no matter what happens, I'm going to take it, because it's my best opportunity. What I'm wondering is, though, what's the proper way to go about trying to negotiate a little extra salary or a couple extra vacation days? Is it bad form to ask for more, get denied, then say "ok I'll take it anyway"?
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Oct 13, 2013 18:48
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unsanitary posted:So, I'm a soon-to-be CS grad who has a job offer from one of the big four; haven't accepted it yet though. Pretty much no matter what happens, I'm going to take it, because it's my best opportunity. Sorry if this is obvious, but who are the big four? Microsoft Google Apple IBM?
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Oct 13, 2013 18:55
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Microsoft Google Apple Amazon. Maybe Facebook.
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Oct 13, 2013 18:57
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Replace IBM with Amazon and that's what I was thinking.
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Oct 13, 2013 18:58
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an skeleton posted:Sorry if this is obvious, but who are the big four? Microsoft Google Apple IBM? I took it to mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Four_(audit_firms) personally.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:07
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I thought he got an offer from NBC, personally.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:12
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unsanitary posted:What I'm wondering is, though, what's the proper way to go about trying to negotiate a little extra salary or a couple extra vacation days? Is it bad form to ask for more, get denied, then say "ok I'll take it anyway"?
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Oct 13, 2013 19:22
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I thought he tried to apply to work with the Gang of Four.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:23
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He has an interview with Poirot, obviously.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:25
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wolffenstein posted:I can't link the original for whatever reason, thanks Google Docs. Anyway thank Gavin Brown for this script. Thanks for this! Exactly what I'm looking for.
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Oct 13, 2013 19:37
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I'm fascinated that I've yet to hear companies like Dropbox, Evernote, Twitter, Square, AirBnB mentioned even once in this thread as far as job options go. Are companies under 1k people not on a new graduate's radar at all? I remember being in college interviewing with Xanga back in the Paleolithic and they had something like two dozen employees at the time (it was a Fibonacci-flavored interview, for the curious). Do "small" companies not recruit in colleges any longer?
DreadCthulhu fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Oct 13, 2013 |
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Oct 13, 2013 20:33
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DreadCthulhu posted:I'm fascinated that I've yet to hear companies like Dropbox, Evernote, Twitter, Square, AirBnB mentioned even once in this thread as far as job options go. Are companies under 1k people not on a new graduate's radar at all? I remember being in college interviewing with Xanga back in the Paleolithic and they had something like two dozen employees at the time (it was a Fibonacci-flavored interview, for the curious). Do "small" companies recruit in colleges any longer? I went to a job fair a few weeks ago for STEM majors and there were a bunch of smallish companies and such like AeroFS or some local small companies you haven't heard of. Also the Canadian NSA who was hiring a ton of positions for their own version of NSA datacenter stuff.
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Oct 13, 2013 20:35
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unsanitary posted:So, I'm a soon-to-be CS grad who has a job offer from one of the big four; haven't accepted it yet though. Pretty much no matter what happens, I'm going to take it, because it's my best opportunity. you're not going to be able to negotiate time off, but if you haven't said a salary number (or worse, agreed to a salary number) you should just ask for a starting offer or at the very least a range say you were thinking it would be higher by some amount of thousands, see what they'll do to compensate for that, and then take the highest number.
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Oct 13, 2013 21:24
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