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Hieronymous Alloy posted:On the other hand, though, the protagonist is a literal Jesuit missionary to an alien race. You don't get much more "I am writing about religion" than that -- even C.S. Lewis's stuff does more to hide the ball ("That's totally not a cross! It's a stone table! Bet you never saw that coming!") The important distinction, to me, is that The Sparrow directly confronts and deconstructs religious philosophy while C.S. Lewis uses allegory (or supposition, according to him). I think they end up being very different in practice and The Sparrow definitely isn't going to have the reader going "waaaait, this book is about Jesus, isn't it?".
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Oct 13, 2013 23:26
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I'll toss in a recommendation for The Half-Made World by Felix Gilman. At first, I wasn't sure what to make of it, but the more I think of it, the more I like it. It's weird, and wonderful, and poetic, and has made me think about it far more than most other books I've read. I think it's possible to read it at face value, as an adventure tale set in a fantasy-infused old west, but there's definitely more going on than that for those who care to look. I think it has interesting things to say about the settling of America, our treatment of the Native Americans, and the overall struggle between the wild world and the civilized world. I'm going through the sorta-sequel now, The Rise of Random City, and although I'm only a quarter done, it's just as good so far. I'd also give a recommendation for Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series, which starts with The Shadow of the Torturer. It's got interesting things to say on religion and is an excellent example of how to properly use the unreliable narrator. Finally, I would also give a recommendation to A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin. It's worth reading just for her wonderful use of language alone, but it's a quick read and you'll know really fast if you're going to like it.
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Oct 13, 2013 23:47
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ManOfTheYear posted:The last time I read fantasy was when I read Hobbit for the hundreth time when I was nine years old, after that I've been dwelling on non-fiction, reading history, political history, criminology, true crime and some popular science stuff. Learning new things is fun. Now, though, I'm having an urge to check out some fiction, but my criteria is that it shouldn't be pure entertainment. Well written and exciting is all fine, nothing wrong with that, but I want books that in one way or another make me think. Like if the books have some interesting philosophical stuff or the theme is morally or otherwise (for example it's about political or racial issues) interesting. Well written is a huge plus. If the books are adult and mature fantasy, that would be fun. Read Blindsight http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm The writing's...fine, but the content is pretty meaty. Cites some sources, too!
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Oct 14, 2013 01:02
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ManOfTheYear posted:my criteria is that it shouldn't be pure entertainment. Well written and exciting is all fine, nothing wrong with that, but I want books that in one way or another make me think. Like if the books have some interesting philosophical stuff or the theme is morally or otherwise (for example it's about political or racial issues) interesting. Well written is a huge plus. If the books are adult and mature fantasy, that would be fun. Try R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy. They're very well written and fit all your criteria, especially concerning religion and philosophy.
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Oct 14, 2013 01:12
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I would disrecommend those - I loved them a lot as a teenage boy but his writing peaked and then started to slump, and while he's decent at philosophy his science research is awful. If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them; I don't actively regret reading his books, but if you're looking for sophistication I don't think they will hold up. e: Probably my first post in the old SF/F thread, maybe one of my first posts on SA, was an extensive defense of Bakker. 
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Oct 14, 2013 01:14
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Fallom posted:The important distinction, to me, is that The Sparrow directly confronts and deconstructs religious philosophy while C.S. Lewis uses allegory (or supposition, according to him). I think they end up being very different in practice and The Sparrow definitely isn't going to have the reader going "waaaait, this book is about Jesus, isn't it?". Still, this reminds me that the short stories of Ted Chiang are not to be missed by anyone interested in religion and SF. Manoftheyear, and indeed anyone who hasn't read them, should check out "Tower of Babel", "Hell is the Absence of God", and "The Merchant and the Alchemist's Gate". The first two are in his amazing collection Stories of Your Life and Others, the third is available on Amazon as a standalone. As for recommending Wolfe to someone new to fantasy...well, I think Wolfe is just as hard to read if you've read 100 normal SF or fantasy novels. I always caveat a Wolfe recommendation with a warning about the difficulty, but when people come from out of genre and talk about wanting good writing, I'd rather point them to the best writing than risk reinforcing the (mostly correct, admittedly) stereotypes about genre writing by sticking with safer choices.
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Oct 14, 2013 02:19
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R. Scott Bakker is a very polarizing author because his, quite frankly, creepy-as-gently caress views on sexuality and gender relations, which play a central role in his work. I don't pay attention to such things normally, and this is the first and only book/series that I've stopped reading because I found the themes to be so creepy. A good summary of the relevant issues can be found here. Now, that being said, if you read that link above and don't find any of the issues to be problematic, then I would heartily recommend giving the series a try. I can vouch that the first two books are quite well written and contain some very memorable characters, I just wish that they had a different philosophy behind them.
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Oct 14, 2013 02:39
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Azathoth posted:Finally, I would also give a recommendation to A Wizard of Earthsea by Ursula K. Le Guin. It's worth reading just for her wonderful use of language alone, but it's a quick read and you'll know really fast if you're going to like it. Seconding this. Then read the sequels.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:13
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Azathoth posted:R. Scott Bakker is a very polarizing author because his, quite frankly, creepy-as-gently caress views on sexuality and gender relations, which play a central role in his work. I don't pay attention to such things normally, and this is the first and only book/series that I've stopped reading because I found the themes to be so creepy. A good summary of the relevant issues can be found here. His writing may very well be deeply problematic (I haven't read any yet) but he does engage his critics directly and intelligently defend his own work and that's gotta count for something.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:34
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TOOT BOOT posted:His writing may very well be deeply problematic (I haven't read any yet) but he does engage his critics directly and intelligently defend his own work and that's gotta count for something. It certainly counts for something, but it mostly counts against him. Professional writers don't respond to reviews, and they don't show up on every blog that mentions their name to start fights. Bakker's reputation would be in much better shape if he stopped Googling himself, learned to say 'Huh, you might have a point' instead of explaining in paragraph-length screeds why You Just Don't Understand, I Have To Write Black Cum Rape Demons, and referring to his opponents as 'femtards'. Bakker's whole project is predicated on modern neuroscience and behavioral psychology. The problem is that once you start to learn modern neuroscience and behavioral psychology past the undergrad level, you quickly come to understand that he's operating, functionally, at a Reddit-level understanding of these topics.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:44
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General Battuta posted:I would disrecommend those - I loved them a lot as a teenage boy but his writing peaked and then started to slump, and while he's decent at philosophy his science research is awful. If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them; I don't actively regret reading his books, but if you're looking for sophistication I don't think they will hold up. I've never understood this attitude where people feel the need to "disrecommend" something. Also, I find "If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them;" pretty insulting. You yourself may have some problems with his books, but acting like anyone who reads them is doing so for "rape" and "labiaplasty" is just being a jerk.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:51
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savinhill posted:I've never understood this attitude where people feel the need to "disrecommend" something. Also, I find "If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them;" pretty insulting. You yourself may have some problems with his books, but acting like anyone who reads them is doing so for "rape" and "labiaplasty" is just being a jerk. This isn't a hugbox, if one poster brings up points they consider positive about an author anyone else is entitled to bring up things they find negative. If this is something you feel strongly about maybe you should bring up some salient points in his defense instead of complaining about people being mean on the internet.
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Oct 14, 2013 04:20
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savinhill posted:I've never understood this attitude where people feel the need to "disrecommend" something. Also, I find "If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them;" pretty insulting. You yourself may have some problems with his books, but acting like anyone who reads them is doing so for "rape" and "labiaplasty" is just being a jerk. I get that you like his books, and you aren't bothered by the issues mentioned, but they are there and quite at the forefront of his writing, and absolutely central to his characters and plot. He is exactly the last author I would recommend to someone looking for fantasy that explores deeper issues, unless they had a clear outline of exactly what his views are and how they are expressed in his work, since many of us find them quite offensive.
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Oct 14, 2013 04:25
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Azathoth posted:R. Scott Bakker is a very polarizing author because his, quite frankly, creepy-as-gently caress views on sexuality and gender relations, which play a central role in his work. To be honest, while they definitely get a bit too rapey (especially the end of book 2), I had far less of an issue with that than with his terminal case of Fantasy Name Syndrome.
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Oct 14, 2013 04:28
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Azathoth posted:General Battuta's comment is dead-on. His writing is deeply problematic for anyone who is even passably aware of issues with either gender or sexuality, and for someone looking for books that tackle bigger issues within the fantasy or scifi genre, Bakker is the exact wrong place to start. He's the logical conclusion of the "written exclusively for men" strain within the fantasy genre and his exploration of the issues he tries to tackle is misguided at best and offensive at worst. Yeah, like, I even like his books, but hoooooo boy no one should read them if they don't know exactly what they're getting into, and some of that is knowing that they're books with capital-I Issues. I think he's and his takes on things are interesting but I wouldn't say there's as thorough understanding of the matters he's touching on as he thinks there is. And of course like most such writers, he's far better if one forgets he has a blog.
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Oct 14, 2013 05:19
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Wasn't Bakker the guy who defended the sexism allegations by saying something along the lines of "I'm not a misogynist, I'm a misandrist" or am I thinking of a different fantasy author? Regardless I gotta say, do not look up the personal views of 99% of sci-fi/fantasy writers. It is a painful road.
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Oct 14, 2013 05:31
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The blog cited didn't really do anything to make me not want to read his work. One of the more louder posters on the other side seemed to take the positition that if you're a woman you either agree or you've internalized sexist oppression. Every single poster that attempted to defend Bakkers position, whether they were male or female, was told they were sexist or covering for sexism. That put me in the mind to agree to agree with Bakker by default
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Oct 14, 2013 05:46
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savinhill posted:I've never understood this attitude where people feel the need to "disrecommend" something. Also, I find "If you want to read books about rape and all the ways that labiaplasty is like female genital mutilation by an author who 'writes with male readers in mind', I guess go for them;" pretty insulting. You yourself may have some problems with his books, but acting like anyone who reads them is doing so for "rape" and "labiaplasty" is just being a jerk. I think you're a cool smart guy, even if we disagree about Bakker. You're right, I shouldn't suggest you're reading the books for those things - I certainly wasn't when I read and enjoyed them, and when I proselytized for them in the past. I just want people to be aware of what they're getting into. Bakker is a frustrating author because I think there's genuinely brilliant material in his work. It's just that he also fucks a lot of stuff up, and when he's called on it, he tends to say 'you don't understand, it's all tied together!' when I don't think it is.
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Oct 14, 2013 05:47
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General Battuta posted:Seriously. He had the perfect setup for this in the Kovacs books, but he never took the chance. One of the running subtextual concerns of his work was the way personality is shaped by the body and neurochemistry - he should've put Kovacs in a female sleeve and either written something really brilliant or (probably) hosed it all up royally with If I remember correctly, that happens to Kovacs in the first book, Altered Carbon, while investigating a clinic. They put him into a female sleeve which they then proceed to mutilate and rape(?) for interrogation purposes. And then Kovacs gets back into his sleeve and comes back and permadeaths the whole clinic. It's not only Bakker that has problem with women, it kinda goes with the territory of being a scifi/fantasy writer. As for the Bakker discussion, I would probably not recommend him to anyone new to fantasy/scifi since he's pretty far from main. Ironically, the previous posts in the thread gives a good outline about how controversial he is. That said, within the field he undoubtedly have a unique fantasy setting far from the norm and should be read simply based on that. Authors will have horrible opinions on a lot of things, but if they didn't the scifi/fantasy field would probably be quite boring. We're still talking about a genre that deals with completely imaginative worlds.
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Oct 14, 2013 07:52
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ManOfTheYear posted:Like if the books have some interesting philosophical stuff or the theme is morally or otherwise (for example it's about political or racial issues) interesting. Well written is a huge plus. If the books are adult and mature fantasy, that would be fun. The Wars of Light and Shadow series by Janny Wurts (fantasy) was conceived as stripping away the romanticism of war and portraying all sides with equal sympathy. Whether it holds up to that throughout is up for debate, but it definitely plays with morals, motivations and who's really in the right, whatever their reasons. Her prose style isn't for everyone, though, and it's at eleven books with two more planned.
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Oct 14, 2013 08:25
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ManOfTheYear posted:The last time I read fantasy was when I read Hobbit for the hundreth time when I was nine years old, after that I've been dwelling on non-fiction, reading history, political history, criminology, true crime and some popular science stuff. Learning new things is fun. Now, though, I'm having an urge to check out some fiction, but my criteria is that it shouldn't be pure entertainment. Well written and exciting is all fine, nothing wrong with that, but I want books that in one way or another make me think. Like if the books have some interesting philosophical stuff or the theme is morally or otherwise (for example it's about political or racial issues) interesting. Well written is a huge plus. If the books are adult and mature fantasy, that would be fun. Apart from the pro recs you've already had, The Female Man by Joanna Russ, Neverness by David Zindell, almost anything by Samuel R. Delany, and Dune by Frank Herbert.
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Oct 14, 2013 09:48
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ManOfTheYear posted:Now, though, I'm having an urge to check out some fiction, but my criteria is that it shouldn't be pure entertainment.
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Oct 14, 2013 11:26
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Cardiac posted:It's not only Bakker that has problem with women, it kinda goes with the territory of being a scifi/fantasy writer. Welp, two of 'em did it. Time to write off the whole genre.
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Oct 14, 2013 12:49
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Woah, that's a lot of recommendations! Thank you guys, now I'll just have to figure out where to start. I'm gonna take the risk and check out the the first of R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing-book, the fact that savinhill says that the books have interesting religious stuff with in them and a lot of people at the same time telling about the problematic sexual views made me really curious. Again, thank you for the answers, you're the best.  mallamp posted:Are you sure it's sci-fi/fantasy you should be reading then? Hmm, didn't think it this way. Even though I haven't touched any kind of fiction for over ten years, I have a lot of warm memories about fantasy worlds because they were a large part of my childhood, maybe not always in books, but at least in movies and video games. I think you can find good and smart stuff anywhere, even though a lot of the genre would be just light entertainment. Also, I actually have read a whole bunch of A Wizard of Earthsea-books, like four or even five! I had completely forgotten about them, but now that the name popped up, I seem to have a lot of different mental images about the "scenes" I made in my head, even though I can't remember what the stories were about.
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Oct 14, 2013 14:40
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Muscle Tracer posted:Welp, two of 'em did it. Time to write off the whole genre. Yeah, Cardiac, I think you're forgetting that a lot of very important SF/F writers are themselves women.
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Oct 14, 2013 15:07
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General Battuta posted:Yeah, Cardiac, I think you're forgetting that a lot of very important SF/F writers are themselves women. Yes, indeed. Which makes it sad there is no recommendation for Catherynne Valente or (even if it usually less overtly philosophical) Lois McMaster Bujold on this page!
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Oct 14, 2013 16:27
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ManOfTheYear posted:Woah, that's a lot of recommendations! Thank you guys, now I'll just have to figure out where to start. I'm gonna take the risk and check out the the first of R. Scott Bakker's The Prince of Nothing-book, the fact that savinhill says that the books have interesting religious stuff with in them and a lot of people at the same time telling about the problematic sexual views made me really curious. Again, thank you for the answers, you're the best. I can't believe nobody (even me) recommended The Left Hand of Darkness, which is the classic sf novel discussing gender. It's by Ursula le Guin, who wrote the Earthsea books. quote:Hmm, didn't think it this way. Even though I haven't touched any kind of fiction for over ten years, I have a lot of warm memories about fantasy worlds because they were a large part of my childhood, maybe not always in books, but at least in movies and video games. I think you can find good and smart stuff anywhere, even though a lot of the genre would be just light entertainment. He wasn't serious. General Battuta posted:Yeah, Cardiac, I think you're forgetting that a lot of very important SF/F writers are themselves women. I think there are a lot more, and more important, sf writers from marginalised backgrounds than most people notice, though I haven't crunched any numbers.
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Oct 14, 2013 17:41
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General Battuta posted:Yeah, Cardiac, I think you're forgetting that a lot of very important SF/F writers are themselves women. Hardly. I don't know the statistics, but I would assume that the majority of scifi/fantasy authors are men and also most of the bestsellers. Looking at the major scifi store here in Sweden confirms it. Also most of the female authors are, at least to me, not that public in their opinions. Who knows, maybe they also have horrible opinions, which by itself is not a reason to avoid books by them. That said, I enjoy female fantasy authors since they seem to write female characters better compared to most male authors. Reading sex scenes by Hamilton and Morgan makes me cringe, simply because the scenes are basically a wish fullfillment of the authors.
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Oct 14, 2013 21:16
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I'd actually guess that the best-selling fantasy/SF authors of all time will all be women and all be from the last twenty years. We don't tend to talk about them as SF/F authors, perhaps because they've become so successful.
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Oct 14, 2013 21:35
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General Battuta posted:I'd actually guess that the best-selling fantasy/SF authors of all time will all be women and all be from the last twenty years. We don't tend to talk about them as SF/F authors, perhaps because they've become so successful. JK Rowling, Stephenie Meyer...?
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Oct 14, 2013 21:54
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... Suzanne Collins (Hunger Games)...
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Oct 14, 2013 21:57
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syphon posted:... Suzanne Collins (Hunger Games)... Oh yeah, I forgot about those. I think battuta has an interesting point though. Nobody calls those books fantasy. They don't get filed with fantasy/sf in bookstores. But they clearly are.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:00
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20 years is somewhat arbitrary unless you're deliberately trying to exclude Tolkien :P From the analyses I've seen, women actually are pretty evenly represented at the TOP of the distribution in SF and fantasy. The issue is more that the B list and C list is almost wholly male. At the very top you can match Tolkien with Rowling and so forth, but there are many fewer women writing less-successful pulp SF&F. It may be that publishers are more willing to take a chance on marginal male authors, it may be that less inspired female writers shift to other genres (Harlequin?), etc.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:20 years is somewhat arbitrary unless you're deliberately trying to exclude Tolkien :P He didn't artificially limit it to the past 20 years, he said the bestselling SF/F authors of all time would end up being women from the past 20 years. He's right too, I'd bet Harry Potter outsold the lord of the rings and probably by a huge margin.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:04
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A short list of best-selling English-language non-children's sci-fi/fantasy authors, distilled from here: 1. J.K. Rowling (Harry Potter) 2. R.L. Stine (Goosebumps) 3. Dean Koontz (I don't know, wikipedia tells me his poo poo has sci-fi in it) 4. Stephen King (various sci-fi that has been turned into bad movies (except The Shining)) 5. J.R.R. Tolkein (Lord of the Rings) 6. C.S. Lewis (Chronicles of Narnia) 7. Stephanie Meyer (Twilight) 8. Anne Rice ( 9. Edgar Rice Burroughs (Barsoom) That's a 2:1 gender bias in favor of men. Draw whatever conclusions you want from that.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:08
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DontMockMySmock posted:A short list of best-selling English-language non-children's sci-fi/fantasy authors, distilled from here: Gosh, Burroughs was really that successful?
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Oct 14, 2013 22:10
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Darth Walrus posted:Gosh, Burroughs was really that successful? Successful compared to sci-fi/fantasy authors. Which is to say, not THAT successful.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:12
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DontMockMySmock posted:A short list of best-selling English-language non-children's sci-fi/fantasy authors, distilled from here: Haha, my mom read dean koontz novels when i was a kid and i stole some of them. They're basically proto-twilight. Horrible romance novels with bad sex scenes and dumb sci-fi themes such as time-traveling nazis (seriously).
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Oct 14, 2013 22:23
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Per Wikipedia:code:E: Beaten. andrew smash posted:Oh yeah, I forgot about those. I think battuta has an interesting point though. Nobody calls those books fantasy. They don't get filed with fantasy/sf in bookstores. But they clearly are. They've got sf/f in them, but not a majority of sf/f.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:23
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House Louse posted:They've got sf/f in them, but not a majority of sf/f. I am honestly not sure what you mean by this.
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Oct 14, 2013 22:25
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