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Cream_Filling posted:Yeah, most of the fluff usually implies that the Emperor's ultimate goal is to protect humanity from chaos and self-destruction during its emergence and transformation into a fully psychic species, after which they'll be super-powerful in some vague way, maybe like the eldar but without the flaws of the eldar.
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Oct 14, 2013 18:47
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Baron Bifford posted:I question exactly what humanity could ever gain spiritually from the Warp. It causes a lot more problems than it offers solutions. It's a place of madness and vicious predators, not enlightenment. One might argue that in a mad, vicious universe, Chaos holds the only answers worth listening to 
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Oct 14, 2013 18:49
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Baron Bifford posted:I question exactly what humanity could ever gain spiritually from the Warp. It causes a lot more problems than it offers solutions. It's a place of madness and vicious predators, not enlightenment. Super magic powers, insight into the future, and functional immortality when your soul can return to the warp and then be reincarnated without losing its identity sounds bad to you?
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Oct 14, 2013 18:52
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JerryLee posted:Yeah, I said there might be more precise words and hubris is a good one. I don't have any problem when people use "dumb" colloquially to mean that, though; I don't think anybody is actually arguing that the Emperor had a low IQ, just that he made poor decisions because of, yes, hubris. I have a problem with it too because some people don't mean it colloquially, specially when it starts echoing. See also: calling Lion'el Jonson and Guilliman socially incompetent spergs.
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Oct 14, 2013 19:20
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Well, the reincarnation bit no longer happens because of daemons. The shamans fused themselves into the Emperor precisely because of that. The Eldar don't reincarnate anymore either because of Slaanesh.
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Oct 14, 2013 19:21
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Baron Bifford posted:Well, the reincarnation bit no longer happens because of daemons. The shamans fused themselves into the Emperor precisely because of that. The Eldar don't reincarnate anymore either because of Slaanesh.
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Oct 14, 2013 19:37
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Baron Bifford posted:I question exactly what humanity could ever gain spiritually from the Warp. It causes a lot more problems than it offers solutions. It's a place of madness and vicious predators, not enlightenment. Unfortunately the only way to travel the vast distances across the imperium and to maintain communications is to through the warp. You can't run a galaxy sized empire when it takes 3,000,000 years for your messages to get through (figure pulled out of my rear end). Was it implied that dark age ships didn't rely on the warp?
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Oct 14, 2013 19:39
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Dog_Meat posted:Unfortunately the only way to travel the vast distances across the imperium and to maintain communications is to through the warp. You can't run a galaxy sized empire when it takes 3,000,000 years for your messages to get through (figure pulled out of my rear end). Nope, they still used the warp. The "warp drive", caused mankind to start spreading out rapidly. I am assuming the warp was alot more calm before Slannesh's birth.
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Oct 14, 2013 19:42
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UberJumper posted:Nope, they still used the warp. The "warp drive", caused mankind to start spreading out rapidly. Most sources say it was the opposite; that the Warp was a giant hell of a boiling storm before Slaanesh came into being, with the rising depravity and psychic footprint of the Eldar, and that all that energy was consumed into the birth of the new god, making the Warp a lot calmer. So unless we are talking way, way before the birth of Slaanesh, it doesn't hold. And around those times, wouldn't the eldar be the dominant force in the galaxy? 
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Oct 15, 2013 01:43
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Sephyr posted:Most sources say it was the opposite; that the Warp was a giant hell of a boiling storm before Slaanesh came into being, with the rising depravity and psychic footprint of the Eldar, and that all that energy was consumed into the birth of the new god, making the Warp a lot calmer. Off the top of my head I thought the timeline was something like: -warp is relatively calm, humanity expands into space -poo poo starts really ramping up in Eldar land, warp storms cut off interstellar travel -Slaanesh is born, soon thereafter warp goes back to (relative) calm (maybe not as calm as before)
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Oct 15, 2013 02:04
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The warp was relatively calm during the Dark Age of Technology, then went turgid around five thousand years before the Fall, coinciding with the Age of Strife and the widespread appearance of psykers in the human race. It gets relatively calm against after that, and having forseen it, the Emperor is ready to embark on the Great Crusade on M30. It once again grows violent towards the end of the crusade and the aftermath of the heresy, continuing to present M41, but with the Astronomican in place warp travel is possible.
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Oct 15, 2013 02:07
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That post about the Death of Integrity a little earlier, by the way: That was a nice recommendation, it really is some fairly fun bolter porn, and all of that Space Marines working their way through a space hulk room by room killing Tyranids is tickling my nostalgia for how we used to play Space Crusade when we were kids 
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Oct 15, 2013 03:51
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Out of the Chaos Legions...of the founding chapters which are the closest to collapse? I've only read the HH and a few battle books but I get the impression that after the Battle of Fang that the Sons might be at the level of boned. I can't imagine they get along with true heretics (they were loyal but Zeech conspired events into motion that left them cut off and forced into exile) and they probably can't find psykers strong enough to really replenish their ranks. Seems like that if any of the legions sent into the eye found the Black Planet where they reside that they would be wiped out quickly against a full strike force (or just Bjorn after he finishes kicking Magnus' balls up through his torso and out his nostrils) After that ADB made it seem like The sons of Cruze are in disarray and survive of raiding and scavenging but all the in fighting leaves them a legion divided.
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Oct 15, 2013 08:22
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EyeRChris posted:Out of the Chaos Legions...of the founding chapters which are the closest to collapse? IIRC Ahriman and most of the intact Sons are running about the galaxy, trying to get into the Eldar Webway so they can find a way to undo the zombification he unleashed on all the non-psyker Sons. The Night Lords are trying to rally for the annihilation of Craftworld Ulthwe. Everyone else is pretty much squabbling/pirating/beating it off in some corner of the Eye. At this point I just want a big reveal book that spends one chapter revealing that the Emperor is the fifth Chaos god, followed by a few hundred pages of trying to make decent sense of this. This would be a good project for Graham McNeill because despite a few half-arsed arguments that could be made for it, there would also need to be a lot of gimmicky bullshit added and no one is better qualified in that department than the 40k Asstickler. I'd also like to make another mention of Betrayer - I'm sure most in this thread have already read it, but the audiobook version is surprisingly good. I've never been big on audiobooks myself, but they do wonders for helping me fall asleep when my brain is otherwise jittering like a crackhead. Anyway: The narrator really gets into his work, too into it perhaps, but you cannot fault a man whose impression of Magnus is a nasal tone filled with hubris; his Lorgar is portrayed with a soft, nearly effeminate voice touched with just the right amount of  . Character voice aside, he also knows where to put emphasis and basically be a Good Audiobook Guy. tl;dr Betrayer audiobook is voiced by the ADB of audiobook guys. Worth a listen.
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Oct 15, 2013 11:09
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All the ADB audiobooks have been great so far. Know No Fear by Abnett was also surprisingly excellent as an audiobook.
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Oct 15, 2013 12:11
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I'm not too happy with the narrator of Helsreach (don't know if it is the same reader as the other ADB books.) He pissed me off right out of the gate when he reads High Marshal Helbrecht with a voice that sounds like an old crone, then immediately follows up with a description of Helbrecht's voice being deep and booming. I understand that a narrator has to make certain choices when creating a character's voice, and many times, the author does not describe how a character speaks (unless you're Stephen King, then half of your characters are from the backwoods of Maine.) But for God's sake - you have an author stating precisely how a character speaks and the narrator chooses to completely disregard that. EyeRChris posted:Out of the Chaos Legions...of the founding chapters which are the closest to collapse?
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Oct 15, 2013 13:52
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berzerkmonkey posted:Honestly, the only first founding Chaos legion that I'd say is still a viable threat would be the Black Legion, and that's only because they have Abbadon to guide them. Not to mention that Abaddon actively recruits from other legions, makes endless pacts with daemons and the lost and the damned, and a milieu of other things. He is certainly a threat, but stability wise he seems to have been written as just barely in control, like a bull rider. Of course, that in itself is quintessentially chaotic, so it works well.
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Oct 15, 2013 14:05
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Depending on the writer, the Word Bearers are also decently unified, ruled by a council of Dark Apostles and dedicated to the Long War. The World eaters are a bit like orks in power armor, in the fluff. They'll merrily bash each other and anyone close until something knocks them all together. And then you get things like the Dominion of Fire, when Angron and 50 thousand berserkers reaved whole sectors clean of life until being stopped by the Grey Knights at Armageddon.
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Oct 15, 2013 14:12
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All of the legions splintered into warbands, except for the bulk of the Black Legion which is on the grasp of Abaddon, and the Word Bearers who for the most part respond to the hierarchical order set by the Dark Council on Sicarus. The Thousand Sons are also fairly unified if just because they're rather of one mind in their goals and values, but their numbers and available resources are few. The conclusion of the Night Lords trilogy has the different warbands attempt to work together again after 8 thousand years.
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Oct 15, 2013 15:38
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All the Night Lords do work together in one of ADB's short stories where the murderous group we all know and loathe search for records of Kurze's death.
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Oct 15, 2013 15:50
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I think it's worth pointing out that while the original legions who went to Chaos are splintered, there are myriads of warbands that number higher then any given chapter in terms of Space Marines. Though I'm loathe to say whether or not they are better equipped. Personally I would say they are conventionally less well equipped but are seriously bolstered by the malign powers of Chaos.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:08
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Blacktoll posted:Personally I would say they are conventionally less well equipped but are seriously bolstered by the malign powers of Chaos. Yeah i'd agree with this. First thing that comes to mind is the descriptions of chaos ships, usually filled with chaos goodies and Nurgle's fart power that possibly make up for the less overall dark mechanicus adepts.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:13
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I guess it's all relative though. I think it was in Nick Kymes' Salamanders which had an appearance by the Marines Errant and they didn't have poo poo for equipment.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:19
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Blacktoll posted:I guess it's all relative though. I think it was in Nick Kymes' Salamanders which had an appearance by the Marines Errant and they didn't have poo poo for equipment. Everyone's got poo poo for equipment compared to the Salamanders.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:22
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Vorenus posted:At this point I just want a big reveal book that spends one chapter revealing that the Emperor is the fifth Chaos god, followed by a few hundred pages of trying to make decent sense of this.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:36
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Blacktoll posted:I think it's worth pointing out that while the original legions who went to Chaos are splintered, there are myriads of warbands that number higher then any given chapter in terms of Space Marines. Though I'm loathe to say whether or not they are better equipped. Personally I would say they are conventionally less well equipped but are seriously bolstered by the malign powers of Chaos. Pretty much, though as a general rule their vessels are Crusade-era warships that outclass modern Imperial Navy and Astartes ships of comparable size.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:50
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I'm not sure if this even has any merit but I was under the impression that Chaos really lacks for an armada. While the ships they have are pound for pound better, there aren't many.
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Oct 15, 2013 16:59
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EyeRChris posted:Out of the Chaos Legions...of the founding chapters which are the closest to collapse? In ADB's short story about the Black Legion it is pretty much explained that the Sons of Horus were more or less exterminated at the end of the Heresy.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:05
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UberJumper posted:In ADB's short story about the Black Legion it is pretty much explained that the Sons of Horus were more or less exterminated at the end of the Heresy. You mean the tiny preview we got, in the form of a short story, that doesn't really tell us anything about how he's gonna play his novel series? Because that thing, while good and interesting, was also too drat short to be making a claim like "more or less exterminated."
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Oct 15, 2013 17:06
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Blacktoll posted:I'm not sure if this even has any merit but I was under the impression that Chaos really lacks for an armada. While the ships they have are pound for pound better, there aren't many. Fleet and troop numbers are a bit iffy in 40K fluff. Other than the one thousand space marine chapters, numbers tend to be either vague or intensely huge ("A billion Imperial Guard regiments!). Chaos and all the other factions are as large and well armed as they need to be to be a threat that can be deadly not not instantly overwhelming, meaning it can be defeated at grievous cost, grimdark-style. Logically, though, the Black Legion and many other chaos factions could have large fleets and good gear. There are thousands of systems in the Eye and the Maelstrom to supply resources, and the Dark Mechanicum is the one that is actually free to innovate and improve stuff (even if they mostly bother with making Daemon engines, it seems). Abaddon had the unthinkably huge Planet Killer made. Hopefully the new ABD series about a Black Legion bigshot will offer some info about how the present Long war deals with manpower and material.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:11
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Sephyr posted:Fleet and troop numbers are a bit iffy in 40K fluff. Other than the one thousand space marine chapters, numbers tend to be either vague or intensely huge ("A billion Imperial Guard regiments!). Same answer to your last two queries: Theft.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:14
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VanSandman posted:You mean the tiny preview we got, in the form of a short story, that doesn't really tell us anything about how he's gonna play his novel series? I haven't seen this, anyone have a link? Is it something on his blog or something else?
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Oct 15, 2013 17:15
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I don't think the Sons of Horus were exterminated as much as they became a different legion. They lost a ton of guys from the wars in the eye, but have bolstered their ranks from other legions.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:22
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Lyer posted:I don't think the Sons of Horus were exterminated as much as they became a different legion. They lost a ton of guys from the wars in the eye, but have bolstered their ranks from other legions. As I said, theft.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:30
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Time in the warp or the eye is relative, so there are Space Marines and other people who feel they just witnessed the defeate of Horus hours or days ago.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:33
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VanSandman posted:Everyone's got poo poo for equipment compared to the Salamanders. They've even got their own secret little dreadnought production line going back on their homeworld. They're basically that rich guy with the fully kitted out hobby room with the fancy cabinets, robocutters, deluxe casting kit, and room for multiple tables.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:35
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The Rat posted:I haven't seen this, anyone have a link? Is it something on his blog or something else? I think it was some limited edition ebook only hardcover gamesday exclusive or whatever crap they arbitrarily decided.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:35
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VanSandman posted:You mean the tiny preview we got, in the form of a short story, that doesn't really tell us anything about how he's gonna play his novel series? The short story is called Extinction, and features various perspectives of sons of Horus basically being attacked by the other traitor legions. The vengeful spirit is laying dead, after being shot down by other traitor legions. It ends with Abaddon remaking about how badly the sons of Horus are losing, and comments off hand that the sons of horus are extinct. Seems like the Sons of Horus more or less got the short end of the stick when their primarch died.
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Oct 15, 2013 17:35
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Figuratively extinct, not literally. Absolutely broken as an organized force, but there are still thousands of Sons Of Horus running around by the time the Black Legion forms.Rapey Joe Stalin posted:They've even got their own secret little dreadnought production line going back on their homeworld. They're basically that rich guy with the fully kitted out hobby room with the fancy cabinets, robocutters, deluxe casting kit, and room for multiple tables. See the Salamanders would be cool as hell even if they weren't the good guys of the setting, but Nick Kyme just is a bad writer. VanSandman fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 15, 2013 |
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Oct 15, 2013 17:37
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VanSandman posted:You mean the tiny preview we got, in the form of a short story, that doesn't really tell us anything about how he's gonna play his novel series? It's been canon since the 90s that after Horus failed, his legion was hunted to almost nothing by the angry other traitors, imperium, and Eldar. The emperors children steal Horus' corpse and blow up the sons base, leading to the storyline of Fabius bile
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