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Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe

vulgey posted:

What games did I probably miss last year? I'm talking about games that most people overlooked because of bad reviews, bad publicity etc. but were actually good. Things like Alpha Protocol and Spec Ops that were "bad" in the eyes of many game reviewers but were actually good.

Remember Me was pretty decent. Okay story and gameplay with fun visuals/art direction.
Tomb Raider was a surprise as most people expected it to be awful but it was great.
Devil May Cry turned out to be far better than expected. The story is dumb but also doesn't take itself seriously enough to be offensive.

Sleeping Dogs, if you didn't play it, might be the best open world game of the year. I honestly enjoyed it more than GTA V.

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Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Mokinokaro posted:

Remember Me was pretty decent. Okay story and gameplay with fun visuals/art direction.
Tomb Raider was a surprise as most people expected it to be awful but it was great.
Devil May Cry turned out to be far better than expected. The story is dumb but also doesn't take itself seriously enough to be offensive.

I gotta disagree on Remember Me. The combat's dull as hell with very little creativity in your combos despite what it suggests, and even that is tossed out the window in the last third of the game because of a gimmick enemy that turns up as the majority of the late-game thugs and can only be harmed with one type of strike. Anything else you hit them with harms you.

The story starts off interesting, but utterly derails after the first act and just mutters its way along to the ending (seriously, they set someone up to be a key character within the first hour of the game and then they're never seen again for the rest of it, save to drop the main character into a late-game level as a glorified taxi service). Not to mention that Memory Remixing, touted as a key part of Remember Me and easily the best part of the game, is used all of five times. Four of which are in the last two hours of an ten-hour game. The whole thing feels like there was a writer at some point in Remember Me's development who planned out a fantastic game, but he's either dead, quit or plain AWOL and what we got was made from the few notes the interns could scavenge from his office.

Avoid it like hell, watch an LP for the Memory Remixing puzzles because they're pretty cool.

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004

by Smythe

vulgey posted:

What games did I probably miss last year? I'm talking about games that most people overlooked because of bad reviews, bad publicity etc. but were actually good. Things like Alpha Protocol and Spec Ops that were "bad" in the eyes of many game reviewers but were actually good.

Euro Truck Simulator 2 :bandwagon:

It didn't get bad reviews per se, but lower than it should have, because originally it took a mod rather than a checkbox to remove the speed limiter.


Oh, and the biggest positive surprise recently was Game of Thrones RPG. It's got pretty bad reviews, but its shortcomings are exactly the superficial kind I didn't care about. Story and gameplay were quite good.

pigdog fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Oct 11, 2013

Austrian mook
Feb 24, 2013

by Shine
Sleeping Dogs is my favorite (and in my eyes unquestionably the best) open world game ever. Take GTA but with a smaller more compact and therefore more interesting setting, a very good plot, fantastic mechanics for both combat and driving and a loving gorgeous setting and you've got a terrific loving game.

Coldstone Cream-my-pants
Jun 21, 2007

pigdog posted:

Oh, and the biggest positive surprise recently was Game of Thrones RPG. It's got pretty bad reviews, but its shortcomings are exactly the superficial kind I didn't care about. Story and gameplay were quite good.

Seriously? I've barely heard a thing at all about this game let alone anything positive. What would you compare the gameplay to? I imagined something truly terrible like a shittier version of MMO combat with no depth.

Fergus Mac Roich
Nov 5, 2008

Soiled Meat

The Royal Scrub posted:

Seriously? I've barely heard a thing at all about this game let alone anything positive. What would you compare the gameplay to? I imagined something truly terrible like a shittier version of MMO combat with no depth.

It's sorta like Dragon Age, or maybe Mass Effect, I guess. You queue up actions(time slows down while you do this), your character does them. They're standard RPG abilities, like "knock down thing" and "stun thing" and "cleave". Honestly, I'm only maybe an hour and a half or two hours in, and even though I was told that the game had a better than average story that would appeal to a Game of Thrones fan(I am a fan of both the books and the show), I think the writing is not all that strong and the gameplay actually kind of sucks. I'm going to keep playing it just to give it a fair shake but so far I'm pretty unhappy with it.

Alkanos
Jul 20, 2009

Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fht-YAWN

Rollersnake posted:

What's the best NIS SRPG, or the one I should play were I to only play one? What's the least grindy?
I need to say this. If you're not interested in grinding the Disgaea games might not be for you. Sure, you can get to the storyline ending of each game without much effort. But that's only around 25% of the game, and all the rest has grind out the rear end.

Galick posted:

Okay, most of the NIS games are pretty standalone. They all make references to each other, but I started with Disgaea 2 and it was fine. In fact, I'd really recommend that as a gateway to the series - I never had to actively grind till I hit the postgame and that's 100% optional.
The only real problem with Disgaea 2 is that it's story is the weakest of the 4 games. The post-game is fantastic though, so it's a good game to get started with. If story is your interest, go with Disgaea 1. The post game is slightly weaker, but the characters are so much better.

Rollersnake
May 9, 2005

Please, please don't let me end up in a threesome with the lunch lady and a gay pirate. That would hit a little too close to home.
Unlockable Ben
I'll just probably continue to not bother with Disgaea then. Was hoping someone would come along and say how 3 or 4 were magically so much better, but oh well.

(I didn't actually get far enough in the first one to even DO the item world, but it's always sounded horrible.)

Galick
Nov 26, 2011

Why does Khajiit have to go to prison this time?

Rollersnake posted:

I'll just probably continue to not bother with Disgaea then. Was hoping someone would come along and say how 3 or 4 were magically so much better, but oh well.

(I didn't actually get far enough in the first one to even DO the item world, but it's always sounded horrible.)

Oh, max level legendary Ultimus, how I love you so :shepicide:

thrakkorzog
Nov 16, 2007

Gough Suppressant posted:

I thought The Old Republic felt a bit CoH/CoV'ish, and has pretty good story.

I thought the story in The Old Republic was decent, but it's much more WoW style where you still need a dedicated tank, healer, and some DPS. And if you try to play it as F2P, you had better be the ursine version of Sir Mix a Lot, because you're going to have to deal with a shitton of collecting the SW equivalent of bear asses.

TehGherkin
May 24, 2008

TehGherkin posted:

My buddy and I have been smoking up and going through some old favourites on the PS1 like Tomb Raider and Metal Gear Solid. We wanna play some two player stuff though.

Does anyone have any recommendations for great two person games on the PS1? Either co-op or versus, we don't mind, although co-op is preferred. Any genre is good with us, although RPGs are the favourite (We're gonna start up Legend of Mana soon)

Asking this again, appreciated the Battle Arena Toshinden recommendation. If anyone has any co-op stuff they enjoyed on the PS1 that'd be great.

Coldstone Cream-my-pants
Jun 21, 2007

Project1 posted:

What MMO is most like City of Heroes in gameplay mechanics, if not specifically superhero? I'm referring specifically to being fun to play even as a casual player, don't need specific dynamics in groups, fun even when solo, and travelling is fast and not terribly boring.

Preferably free, but I'll look at pay games. Likewise, I'd prefer it to not be fantasy, but I'll look at those.

You might check out Age of Wushu. It's one of those games that's really fun when you're a casual player just getting into it. It's free to try. You pretty much either fast travel or auto-run everywhere, even quest locations. Group dynamics are exactly what you want and there are a bunch of mini-dungeons that can be done with 2 or 3 people and eventually even solo.

Genpei Turtle
Jul 20, 2007

TehGherkin posted:

Asking this again, appreciated the Battle Arena Toshinden recommendation. If anyone has any co-op stuff they enjoyed on the PS1 that'd be great.

If you have lightguns, the Point Blank series are great co-op. At least I have very fond memories of playing it with hallmates in college.

ed: Now that I think of it it's not exactly co-op as one player scores higher than the other but it's not really competitive either, at least not in a zero-sum sense.

Koth
Jul 1, 2005
I don't know if anyone remembers a space game called Nomad from the early 90s. You played a space ship pilot that just went around and discovered new worlds, races, and technologies. You traded with other civilizations and did jobs for them and such.

http://www.abandonia.com/games/383/


Is there any game like that out now?

Flopstick
Jul 10, 2011

Top Cop

TehGherkin posted:

My buddy and I have been smoking up and going through some old favourites on the PS1 like Tomb Raider and Metal Gear Solid. We wanna play some two player stuff though.

Does anyone have any recommendations for great two person games on the PS1? Either co-op or versus, we don't mind, although co-op is preferred. Any genre is good with us, although RPGs are the favourite (We're gonna start up Legend of Mana soon)

Circuit Breakers, for the occasional fun racing session. It's like Micro Machines, but better, and masses of fun.

The original Diablo is great for coop on PS1 as well.

Funktor
May 17, 2009

Burnin' down the disco floor...
Fear the wrath of the mighty FUNKTOR!
This one's a long shot. In the early days of AOL circa 1994 or 1995, there was a MUD called Federation which involved flying a ship around space, hauling commodities, trading on the commodities market, etc. If you played for a long time you could eventually buy and design your own planet for players to explore, etc.

Now, I don't really care for the general MUD or online multiplayer setting in general, but I always loved flying back and forth through space making money by hauling crap around, being a trader, etc. Does anyone know of any games that might scratch that particular itch?

Nordick
Sep 3, 2011

Yes.

Funktor posted:

Now, I don't really care for the general MUD or online multiplayer setting in general, but I always loved flying back and forth through space making money by hauling crap around, being a trader, etc. Does anyone know of any games that might scratch that particular itch?
The X series are pretty well esteemed in that genre, from what I hear. They're pretty drat complex too, for better or worse.
For something a bit simpler, maybe try Space Rangers 2? It's not focused on it, but trading is still an element you can get involved in.

Liberatore
Nov 16, 2010

Would you like
to know more?


When (that's no) moon hits this guy like a big Twi'lek guy: Liberatore!

Nordick posted:

The X series are pretty well esteemed in that genre, from what I hear. They're pretty drat complex too, for better or worse.

The next game in the series, X: Rebirth, is being hyped up as being much more accessible. It also seems to be far more interesting in the trading and transportation aspect, particularly in how it models very large scale transportation of goods. This video shows what I mean.

But in the X series, you don't really do the hauling yourself. It is too time consuming and not rewarding enough for that. Instead, you use remote controlled ships with rudimentary AI to do that stuff. X: Rebirth is built with that idea in mind, and limits the player to one ship.

TypeAskee
Jul 21, 2012

Funktor posted:

This one's a long shot. In the early days of AOL circa 1994 or 1995, there was a MUD called Federation which involved flying a ship around space, hauling commodities, trading on the commodities market, etc. If you played for a long time you could eventually buy and design your own planet for players to explore, etc.

Now, I don't really care for the general MUD or online multiplayer setting in general, but I always loved flying back and forth through space making money by hauling crap around, being a trader, etc. Does anyone know of any games that might scratch that particular itch?

I'm pretty sure that Federation itself is still going... I think I remember playing it last year sometime. (too lazy to Google it though)

Funktor
May 17, 2009

Burnin' down the disco floor...
Fear the wrath of the mighty FUNKTOR!
Yeah, Fed is still going, but I'm really really not up for a MUD at this point in my life. What is this X series you guys are talking about? I've never heard of it.

Funktor fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Oct 12, 2013

Remote User
Nov 17, 2003

Hope deleted.

Funktor posted:

Yeah, Fed is still going, but I'm really really not up for a MUD at this point in my life. What is this X series you guys are talking about? I've never heard of it.

The latest iteration is X3 Albion Prelude, definitely the best in the bunch. It will sometimes be referred to as, EVE Offline. It's a huge sandbox, with a pretty beefy learning curve, but there are some good LPs out there. You start out small and build an empire, complete with custom space stations, and capitol ships.

Internet Friend
Jan 1, 2001

Funktor posted:

Yeah, Fed is still going, but I'm really really not up for a MUD at this point in my life. What is this X series you guys are talking about? I've never heard of it.

Once upon a time there was a game called Elite where you flew around in an early 3D first person spaceship, trading and fighting to get rich. Federation was a MUD done up in the style of Elite (with the planet-building MOO stuff being unique to it).

X is a super grognardy version of this kind of game. You still fly around inside ships and do the same basic stuff, but the real moneymaking comes from creating automated manufacturing and trading system with simple scripts to create wealth for you.

It sounds like you've missed out on the genre if Fed is your only touchstone for it. Before you dive into X, you should play Escape Velocity Nova and Freelancer, which are both much more accessible than the X series. Freelancer has a modding community that has added a ton of extra crap to it since release as well, but the base game is fine.


Comedy option: If the space part is negotiable, Euro Truck Simulator 2 is the premier poo poo-hauling game on the market right now.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD :ovr:


Someone else here played Federation? And it's still alive? Holy cow, talk about a flashback. :pwn:

Anyway, here's the thread on the current X game, X3: Albion Prelude, if you haven't found it yet.

Tagra
Apr 7, 2006

If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.


Funktor posted:

This one's a long shot. In the early days of AOL circa 1994 or 1995, there was a MUD called Federation which involved flying a ship around space, hauling commodities, trading on the commodities market, etc. If you played for a long time you could eventually buy and design your own planet for players to explore, etc.

Now, I don't really care for the general MUD or online multiplayer setting in general, but I always loved flying back and forth through space making money by hauling crap around, being a trader, etc. Does anyone know of any games that might scratch that particular itch?

I used to play the poo poo out of a shareware game called Gazillionaire and always kinda wanted the full version of it. Then I discovered it still exists, now in browser form! And then I played it and discovered I was limited to 20 turns unless I gave them money, which wouldn't be so bad except they wanted a subscription that would expire to play a game I played literally 15 years ago on my 486, and I was offended and quit playing.

But anyway it should keep you interested for a good 20 minutes at least: http://www.gazillionaire.com/index.php

Turtlicious
Sep 17, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I'm looking for a Free to play game to play with my girlfriend over the internet, the only rule is no MMO's unless they are VASTLY different from MMO's like Age of Wushu, or World of Warcraft. I really really like Phantasy Star Online, but I don't think I'll be able to get her to put up with the japanese interface.

Funktor
May 17, 2009

Burnin' down the disco floor...
Fear the wrath of the mighty FUNKTOR!

Internet Friend posted:

Once upon a time there was a game called Elite where you flew around in an early 3D first person spaceship, trading and fighting to get rich. Federation was a MUD done up in the style of Elite (with the planet-building MOO stuff being unique to it).

X is a super grognardy version of this kind of game. You still fly around inside ships and do the same basic stuff, but the real moneymaking comes from creating automated manufacturing and trading system with simple scripts to create wealth for you.

It sounds like you've missed out on the genre if Fed is your only touchstone for it. Before you dive into X, you should play Escape Velocity Nova and Freelancer, which are both much more accessible than the X series. Freelancer has a modding community that has added a ton of extra crap to it since release as well, but the base game is fine.


Comedy option: If the space part is negotiable, Euro Truck Simulator 2 is the premier poo poo-hauling game on the market right now.

Thank you very much. My gaming time is pretty limited these days, so I'm gonna have to shy away from the grognardy stuff. I'll check out those others first.

Deformed Church
May 12, 2012

5'5", IQ 81


So this is a pretty broad question. I just ordered a 3DS. Having not owned a handheld that wasn't an ipod touch since the GBA, any highlights I should be picking out? I pretty much bought it because pokemon, but there must be a fair few other things worth getting from the past however many years the DS has been around.

Edit: Oh yeah, I probably should have said something about that. I guess action games or RPGs? I'm not too into platforming stuff like Mario, I'm not great at anything too tactical like Fire Emblem and I have a limited tolerance for puzzle games. I know that cuts out a lot of stuff, particularly on a handheld platform. Oh, and maybe a hidden object game or two? I like the occasional "find a baseball in this hoarder house" game.

Deformed Church fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Oct 15, 2013

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

MooCowlian posted:

So this is a pretty broad question. I just ordered a 3DS. Having not owned a handheld that wasn't an ipod touch since the GBA, any highlights I should be picking out? I pretty much bought it because pokemon, but there must be a fair few other things worth getting from the past however many years the DS has been around.


Can you give us some preferred genres to narrow the list a bit? There's a lot of good games for both the 3DS and DS across the board.

Baggins
Feb 21, 2007

Like a Great Wind!
Are there any quiet city/society builders out there that isn't Sim City?

I've got Cities XL and CivCity Rome, but the former is very buggy and prone to crashing and the latter is really feeling it's age. What I'd really like is something that lets me build and maintain a completely self-sufficient society and not have to worry about combat at all. I've kept my eye on Banished for a while, but it's not out for some time yet.

The game being optimized for modern systems would be a plus, but not a requirement.

Austrian mook
Feb 24, 2013

by Shine

MooCowlian posted:

So this is a pretty broad question. I just ordered a 3DS. Having not owned a handheld that wasn't an ipod touch since the GBA, any highlights I should be picking out? I pretty much bought it because pokemon, but there must be a fair few other things worth getting from the past however many years the DS has been around.

Edit: Oh yeah, I probably should have said something about that. I guess action games or RPGs? I'm not too into platforming stuff like Mario, I'm not great at anything too tactical like Fire Emblem and I have a limited tolerance for puzzle games. I know that cuts out a lot of stuff, particularly on a handheld platform. Oh, and maybe a hidden object game or two? I like the occasional "find a baseball in this hoarder house" game.

Check out the Mario and Luigi games, specifically Bowsers Inside Story and Dream Team, Partners in Time kind of blows.

Leper Residue
Sep 28, 2003

To where no dog has gone before.

Baggins posted:

Are there any quiet city/society builders out there that isn't Sim City?

I've got Cities XL and CivCity Rome, but the former is very buggy and prone to crashing and the latter is really feeling it's age. What I'd really like is something that lets me build and maintain a completely self-sufficient society and not have to worry about combat at all. I've kept my eye on Banished for a while, but it's not out for some time yet.

The game being optimized for modern systems would be a plus, but not a requirement.

Have you tried the Tropico games? I don't think there's any combat, and it's pretty chill as far as sim games go.

Austrian mook
Feb 24, 2013

by Shine
I played a lot of the original Tropico, like, a LOT. Is it worth buying the newer ones or should I buy the original again? Basically, is it a different game or just an updated original, I don't wanna learn something new.

Baggins
Feb 21, 2007

Like a Great Wind!

Leper Residue posted:

Have you tried the Tropico games? I don't think there's any combat, and it's pretty chill as far as sim games go.

Yeah, forgot to mention those. It's not quite what I'm after as it has the whole political aspect to it and the whole economy is based on an import/export model. It's extremely hard to impossible to get the place to work without maximizing exports, not to mention all the dirty tricks you have to fool the engine with to get traffic going.

I'm basically after either SimCity 4, but without the regional aspect or something like CivCity Rome or Stronghold without combat.

Cities XL is close, but the engine runs like a dog and it lacks a few core things. Railways being the primary of them.

Austrian mook posted:

I played a lot of the original Tropico, like, a LOT. Is it worth buying the newer ones or should I buy the original again? Basically, is it a different game or just an updated original, I don't wanna learn something new.

Tropico 3/4 is similar enough to the first one that you should be able to dive pretty much straight in. Some minor differences, but nothing too terrible. The tutorials ingame does a good job of explaining it to you. Keep in mind that 4 is pretty much just Tropico 3.5. I've got my money's worth out of both.

Baggins fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Oct 15, 2013

Tagra
Apr 7, 2006

If you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.


MooCowlian posted:

So this is a pretty broad question. I just ordered a 3DS. Having not owned a handheld that wasn't an ipod touch since the GBA, any highlights I should be picking out? I pretty much bought it because pokemon, but there must be a fair few other things worth getting from the past however many years the DS has been around.

Edit: Oh yeah, I probably should have said something about that. I guess action games or RPGs? I'm not too into platforming stuff like Mario, I'm not great at anything too tactical like Fire Emblem and I have a limited tolerance for puzzle games. I know that cuts out a lot of stuff, particularly on a handheld platform. Oh, and maybe a hidden object game or two? I like the occasional "find a baseball in this hoarder house" game.

Hmm what have I played on my DS recently...

I'm currently playing the poo poo out of Rune Factory 4 which might appeal to someone who likes Pokemon (although that could be misleading since they're quite different, but there's plenty of things to work on and lots of goals to work toward). There's also Harvest Moon for similar but with no dungeons and no real skill-levelling.

Etrian Odyssey is good for dungeon crawling.

You don't like puzzles so you probably won't like Professor Layton much.

You might like 999 (nine hours nine persons nine doors) which is kind of hidden object-y but also really interesting.

TroubledWaters
Aug 9, 2007

Some kind of...
oil trap!

Drakenel posted:

Time once again to recommend me a game! I have a different taste this time though.

Having recently played the campaign Cities of the Frontier in the free strategy game Battle of Wesnoth, I got wondering what games out there are similar. To explain, the campaign in question has you building a village out in the middle of bumblefuck nowhere and trying to expand it while simultaneously fending off bandit attacks, orc raids, elves that are pissy about you clearing trees, and even the occasional necromancer. I enjoyed the whole "Raise a village to keep your people fed and money coming in, to WE'RE UNDER ATTACK! DEFEND THE VILLAAAAAGE".

So, question is, is there some obscure strategy game, or even a roguelike that revolves around building and defending a town? Another game in this vein that I already own (And you may be more familiar with) is the Majesty series.

What do you have, goons?

It's kind of low budget, but I love Hinterland to kill some time with. It's pretty much exactly as you described, you build a village in a hinterland and defend it from troll attacks and whatever while you expand to collect enough water for your town to survive. 10 bucks is a lot for what it is, probably, but it's usually 5 in any Steam sale.

AnonSpore
Jan 19, 2012

"I didn't see the part where he develops as a character so I guess he never developed as a character"
A bit of a specific request:

I'm looking for a game for the PC with stealth mechanics like Mark of the Ninja. It doesn't necessarily have to be a platformer, any genre will do. I've got my eye on Deus Ex HR Director's Cut, and I even enjoyed the stealth in Skyrim to a point. Generally I'm looking for one where combat will never be necessary as long as you don't get caught--no forced boss battles or stuff like dragons from Skyrim. On the other hand if I'm caught I don't want it to be an instant game over; even in MotN you could use your tools and hide/kill enemies if you really felt like it, and I generally don't want to have to save/load every time I make a misstep.

Horror's not really my thing though, so I'd appreciate it if recommendations could avoid that.

AnonSpore fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Oct 16, 2013

Fergus Mac Roich
Nov 5, 2008

Soiled Meat
Thief 2.

Hwurmp
May 20, 2005

AnonSpore posted:

A bit of a specific request:

I'm looking for a game for the PC with stealth mechanics like Mark of the Ninja. It doesn't necessarily have to be a platformer, any genre will do. I've got my eye on Deus Ex HR Director's Cut, and I even enjoyed the stealth in Skyrim to a point. Generally I'm looking for one where combat will never be necessary as long as you don't get caught--no forced boss battles or stuff like dragons from Skyrim. On the other hand if I'm caught I don't want it to be an instant game over; even in MotN you could use your tools and hide/kill enemies if you really felt like it, and I generally don't want to have to save/load every time I make a misstep.

Horror's not really my thing though, so I'd appreciate it if recommendations could avoid that.

Sounds like Dishonored to me.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything



Fun Shoe

AnonSpore posted:

I'm looking for a game for the PC with stealth mechanics like Mark of the Ninja.

Dishonoured as mentioned is a good one. Have you tried Hitman: Blood Money? The stealth system is more disguise-based but you can shoot if needed. The only forced combat at all is the last level and it's nothing like a boss fight.

DE:HR and Dishonoured might be a bit closer to what you're describing though. I wish The Last of Us was on PC as that's almost exactly what you want.

EDIT: \/ Yeah, that's true. Even though most of those instances you can still use stealth if you're smart about it. TLOU is rather nice about avoiding completely psychic enemies once they've been alerted.

Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Oct 16, 2013

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Baggins
Feb 21, 2007

Like a Great Wind!

Mokinokaro posted:

I wish The Last of Us was on PC as that's almost exactly what you want.

TLOU has forced battles in a few places, so that disqualifies it according to his criteria. Dishonored would be my bet as well. You can do battle if you will, but it's entirely possible to go through the entire game without having to fight, maybe with one exception.

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