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Yeah it lacks synergy between its features as well, yeah you get +1 to forge paths but you cant really get a good efficienct use of the forge discount on bigger base cost items. Its still great if you need it to access those sorts of things but yeah.
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Oct 18, 2013 13:34
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Can anyone direct me to a good pretender sprite pack for D4 ? I especially dislike the dragon sprites and had a far better pack for D3, but lost it somewhere. Also where is the main forum now located, now that the game is sold over Desuria/Gamers Gate and no longer over the Shrapnel site ? Edit: Hah, I'm an idiot, it's in the OP. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 13:41
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Zauper posted:Sea trolls are fine vs indies and fantastic in castle defense. Well if you are just clearing indies, you can just use random shamblers, merfolk or fishmen. I was assuming it was to raid an actual player. Unless you have a scary SC you are basically just clearing indies for your neighbor who will likely take your poo poo immediately since you are pretty much powerless to stop them. For those summons that require land, you can simply raid onto land against someone who won't immediately throw you off next turn, put down a lab, and summon. You can keep some water breathing stuff handy if you don't think you can hold afterwards and will need to retreat. Alternatively, it's usually possible to negotiate with a friendly neighbor and buy a land province off of them. Pelagia is pretty boss underwater and I'd focus on taking the whole ocean for myself before worrying about land. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 13:48
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Well if you are just clearing indies, you can just use random shamblers, merfolk or fishmen. I was assuming it was to raid an actual player. Unless you have a scary SC you are basically just clearing indies for your neighbor who will likely take your poo poo immediately since you are pretty much powerless to stop them. I think this is a good way to lose the game as there are never remotely as many water provinces as land (and, consequently, gold, gems and thrones). The 1:1 conversion to pearls make a wish engine workable, but the research for that and throne victory condition make the very long game less likely to succeed, I think.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:41
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builds character posted:I think this is a good way to lose the game as there are never remotely as many water provinces as land (and, consequently, gold, gems and thrones). The 1:1 conversion to pearls make a wish engine workable, but the research for that and throne victory condition make the very long game less likely to succeed, I think. Well you will probably lose regardless of strategy as Pelagia, but it's at least a thing that could work (on a big map with a big ocean). Only alternative is an awake SC but that's a terrible one trick pony that might dissuade one neighbor from taking all of your land. Then you pray to the RNG for a site that will give you something beyond SC plus a bunch of indie trash and maybe pearl lords with fish amulets before someone else comes for your stuff. It's really hard to hold land against a determined opponent as an aquatic nation without midgame spells and summons.
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Oct 18, 2013 14:59
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CopycatPantheon I'm gonna be out of town this weekend, so could one of my teammates try to do my turns if you see this? Thanks!
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Oct 18, 2013 15:03
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I made a unit with a #demonundead #bonus ranged weapon and gave it to a monster but he just sits there shooting it at non-demon and non-undead units inflicting no damage (obviously). What gives?
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Oct 18, 2013 15:54
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Can someone help me see any value whatsoever in the monkey nations (Kalasia, Bandar Log, Patala)? Their recruit anywhere mages are pretty awful at 2S1N with no randoms, their sacreds and good mages are cap only and often slow to recruit, and none of their regular line troops are outstanding (and almost universally have low MR). Sure, you might be able to make a half decent communion from your 2S1N and your 1S mages, but other nations with astral have much better path diversity and will be able to leverage a wider variety of more effective battlemagic off of their communions. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what you actually do with the nation. They don't really appear to have the ability to leverage sacreds well, they need magic diversity pretty badly, and their troops aren't that great, so an awake SC would be incredibly helpful. On top of that, they've got the ability to get great swarms of cheap small archers, except that those archers are undisciplined and they don't have fire magic so they can't cast flaming arrows anyway. I feel like they'd be pretty good or at least decent if their line mages had any sort of magic diversity at all, really. It's also amusing that their best recruit anywhere priest is an independent priest, which certainly doesn't help their ability to take advantage of sacreds.
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Oct 18, 2013 19:38
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Well back in Dom3 when gem-gens were still a thing that existed and research was quicker you'd be able to clam hard and leverage those truly fantastic sacred summons like Gandharvas and eventually Rudra. Now though with gem gens eliminated and research hugely lengthened I reckon that those spells need to be placed earlier in the Conjuration path and have their prices slashed pretty deeply (seriously, 55 pearls for a Rudra these days??).
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Oct 18, 2013 19:59
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Irony.or.Death posted:I'm going to laugh and laugh the first time someone wishes for a hammer of the forge lord in Dom 4. I'll also laugh if someone wishes for The Chalice because it no longer heals afflictions of undead.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:01
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Dirk the Average posted:Can someone help me see any value whatsoever in the monkey nations (Kalasia, Bandar Log, Patala)? Their recruit anywhere mages are pretty awful at 2S1N with no randoms, their sacreds and good mages are cap only and often slow to recruit, and none of their regular line troops are outstanding (and almost universally have low MR). Sure, you might be able to make a half decent communion from your 2S1N and your 1S mages, but other nations with astral have much better path diversity and will be able to leverage a wider variety of more effective battlemagic off of their communions. EA's cap mages are excellent and not STR. E3 is amazing and you can do some pretty brutal things with massed monkeys with it on top of the normal earth things. Their sacreds are excellent though vulnerable to arrows, with the spear ones being recruit anywhere. The lack of priests hurts, though that's only an early game issue as you can crank out H1 independent priests or communion up to H3 if necessary later. MA's got tigers, which mow through indies like a chainsaw and make good expansion parties. LA's sacreds are kind of lovely compared to the other eras and are more resource intensive to boot. Early and late era practically require an awake SC. MA can handle it with just blessed tigers if desired and you also get recruit anywhere white ones so a full bless strategy can work. I like to throw some fire on my SC if I can afford it, as massed strength buffed monkeys throwing flaming poo poo (I prefer to imagine they are throwing feces when you cast flaming arrows  ) is hilariously effective. Nothing is more satisfying than routing an army of triple blessed jags with Makarta. With even a moderate bless you should be able to build at least a couple of other expansion parties and eke out a decent territory. Your million little S1 research mages can be leveraged to make soul slay/enslave mind communions all by themselves. All 3 eras cap mages either have S or get S randoms which can be plugged into your communions as well. They aren't the best communion nation, but they are a good one. The unique monkey conjuration spells are also really really good and allow you to break into pretty much everything but death and blood, though fire doesn't come until super late. How are u posted:Well back in Dom3 when gem-gens were still a thing that existed and research was quicker you'd be able to clam hard and leverage those truly fantastic sacred summons like Gandharvas and eventually Rudra. Now though with gem gens eliminated and research hugely lengthened I reckon that those spells need to be placed earlier in the Conjuration path and have their prices slashed pretty deeply (seriously, 55 pearls for a Rudra these days??). Yeah the lack of clam spam does hurt their lategame potential and it's not nearly as easy to go spamming the poo poo out of Rudras. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 20:31
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TheDemon posted:I'll also laugh if someone wishes for The Chalice because it no longer heals afflictions of undead. Is there anything besides GoH to heal Tarts or is it just going to be GoH or nothing? Because if it is I'd expect very long games to eventually end up with something ridiculous like a 999 gem GoH cast.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:40
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Excellent monkey-points Fair enough, I think I overvalue good line mages when I evaluate a nation, and the monkey line mages are awful (except as communion slaves, but you do need to get a cap only mage to plug them into or they're just not useful). However, with shorter game lengths, cap-only mages and troops are going to be much more important than they were in Dom3 owing to the reduced number of fortresses that can be built in that time. It also helps that their reduced MR isn't as big a deal when you consider that most of the really powerful late game spells that decimate armies through MR-negates stuff come too late to be all that important.
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Oct 18, 2013 20:50
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It seems nearly impossible to get to level 9 anything in research, but on the other hand it's easier to spread out research. So would there be any good replacements for Tarts?
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Oct 18, 2013 20:54
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Dirk the Average posted:It also helps that their reduced MR isn't as big a deal when you consider that most of the really powerful late game spells that decimate armies through MR-negates stuff come too late to be all that important. Monkeys die to basically everything anyways and when late game rolls around with terrifying poo poo like tartarians and master enslave, your monkeys aren't much worse than any other unit as a chaff wall. Any potential foe would get a lot of makarta with a cast though. Lucky them!  amuayse posted:It seems nearly impossible to get to level 9 anything in research, but on the other hand it's easier to spread out research. So would there be any good replacements for Tarts? Nothing is on par with tarts, which is why everyone goes for them. It takes loving forever to build a tart factory though and there are even more SC killing spells than there were in 3. Resist changes also make it a lot harder to turn them into tri-immune avatars of death. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 20:56
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Dirk the Average posted:Can someone help me see any value whatsoever in the monkey nations (Kalasia, Bandar Log, Patala)?
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Oct 18, 2013 21:06
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What can you tell me about this 'reincarnation' I see on Patala's monkey mage/priests, and the 'hypnotize' on their nagas, commander and line troops? Nagarashi (1 turn) and Nagarini (STR) have a second shape if they start the battle out in Yaksha form, which makes them a bit weaker magically in water, but a second life isn't bad, especially if you attempt to thug the Nagarashi. Naginis (1 turn) don't get that, but they don't get STR and they get stealth+seduction, though that seems a rather expensive gamble. The Yaksha form also has the side benefit of negating 'cold-blooded'. These Yaksha lack the awe of their EA versions, and lose the venom spit/hypnotism of their Naga shape, but it is something you can certainly try to mess around with. Finally, the
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Oct 18, 2013 21:52
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LordSloth posted:What can you tell me about this 'reincarnation' I see on Patala's monkey mage/priests, and the 'hypnotize' on their nagas, commander and line troops? I haven't looked at hypnotize, but reincarnation does exactly what it says. If they die they have a chance to come back as another monkey. Sometimes they come back as the same type, sometimes something different, and sometimes they go to be one with the force and give you a candle. Not sure if being in friendly dom affects the chance or not. It doesn't seem to fire in battle but the effect is noticeable during something like burden of time. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 22:02
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Reincarnation not firing in battle explains why I've only ever seen it happen once... If they chaned that it would be pretty neag to havd a bunch of white ones come back as gurus after a battle. Might be OP ic the chance is too high, though.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:18
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I believe Hypnotise is a Confusion effect upon the target. On reincarnation, obviously the prostrat is to build your pretender around rushing Burden of Time (it's only Thaum 5!) and reincarnate until you have HUNDREDS of candles. Can't possibly fail.
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Oct 19, 2013 00:39
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sullat posted:Reincarnation not firing in battle explains why I've only ever seen it happen once... If they chaned that it would be pretty neag to havd a bunch of white ones come back as gurus after a battle. Might be OP ic the chance is too high, though. What do they come back as? The way it is worded I assumed they had a chance to become a temple-check.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:07
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Decrepus posted:What do they come back as? The way it is worded I assumed they had a chance to become a temple-check. They come back as random monkey units or a temple check.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:14
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jBrereton posted:I believe Hypnotise is a Confusion effect upon the target. This is the ultimate domkill strategy. Have any Dom4 games actually gotten to "late game" or is it all just theory atm?
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Oct 19, 2013 01:41
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A better question is perhaps "what even constitutes 'late game' with the introduction of thrones as a very tight victory condition, and the enormous increase in high-level research costs?". Might be the case that we very rarely see anything above research level 7/8 at all ever.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:44
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Decrepus posted:What do they come back as? The way it is worded I assumed they had a chance to become a temple-check. I had a few 1s mages come back as 2s1n mages after being cut off in a retreat. This was back in dom 3, mind you.
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Oct 19, 2013 02:34
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jBrereton posted:A better question is perhaps "what even constitutes 'late game' with the introduction of thrones as a very tight victory condition, and the enormous increase in high-level research costs?". Might be the case that we very rarely see anything above research level 7/8 at all ever. Well sacred rushing seems much more useful for Throne games. Especially so with the force multiplier of several disciple nations working in tandem.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:15
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jBrereton posted:A better question is perhaps "what even constitutes 'late game' with the introduction of thrones as a very tight victory condition, and the enormous increase in high-level research costs?". Might be the case that we very rarely see anything above research level 7/8 at all ever. I mean, not all games will feature throne victory conditions, but yeah throne win conditions will definitely place a more reasonable time limit on winning than games otherwise have. I think it will be possible for stuff to get late enough if the game is sizably large, but you'll see a much greater reliance on battle mages than on SCs/Thugs like it was in Dom3. Edit: Also just going to throw out here that all gurus can cast stellar cascades and soul slay (If light of the north star is cast) which are both very, very good spells. Very useful, especially considering the B9 changes.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:28
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I love and miss you modders. The new path SC's in (Awesome Endgame?) were great. Grendles for water, Asynja for air, etc. I miss all them in vanilla Dom 4. On the other hand, it is certainly a significant improvement on Dom 3. I'll dick around in single player a bit more then jump back into multiplayer. I even won a game once in dom 3! Out of a dozen plus...
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Oct 19, 2013 03:32
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Speaking of, I'm thinking of authoring a balance mod focusing on avoiding power creep and keeping gameplay similar to the base game, as much as possible anyway. I think national balance has to be first on the agenda, given that Dom4 changes, even global ones, mostly affect that. And also that it's easy to mod all national stuff without a dom4db or mod inspector. Any ideas for what to look at first? AmishSpecialForces posted:I love and miss you modders. The new path SC's in (Awesome Endgame?) were great. Grendles for water, Asynja for air, etc. I miss all them in vanilla Dom 4. On the other hand, it is certainly a significant improvement on Dom 3. I'll dick around in single player a bit more then jump back into multiplayer. I even won a game once in dom 3! Out of a dozen plus... EDM by llamabeast (from the official forums / dom3mods) was the basis of AE, and EDM was also phased into CBM. AE's main innovations were drastic improvement of unique summons and the less-used EDM summons.
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Oct 19, 2013 20:26
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TheDemon posted:Any ideas for what to look at first?
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Oct 19, 2013 21:28
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I was thinking just upping the chaosrec to approach the difference between O3 and T3. I mean, Yomi has absolutely zero reason to take Prod anyway.
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Oct 19, 2013 22:00
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I'm sorely tempted to go through and make a mod that gives leather caps to all the armor but no hat units. Something about hatless units just annoys the hell out of me.
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Oct 19, 2013 22:06
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TheDemon posted:Speaking of, I'm thinking of authoring a balance mod focusing on avoiding power creep and keeping gameplay similar to the base game, as much as possible anyway. I think national balance has to be first on the agenda, given that Dom4 changes, even global ones, mostly affect that. And also that it's easy to mod all national stuff without a dom4db or mod inspector. Any ideas for what to look at first? As above, and maybe some way of making it so that Yomi doesn't have to choose between weakening all its units and simply not being able to afford them. Different nation, the Yazatas of Caelum need to be cheaper and/or you need to get more per casting of that spell; not only are they dramatically overpriced, but as-is Caelum can't actually naturally summon them (except MA Caelum with a really lucky random or a traded/pretender-forged booster) so your ability to actually get them out is really limited even before the anemic quantity you get per casting. MA/LA R'lyeh's Starspawn need to be recruit-everywhere again because, while STR is a welcome change, cap-only is painful. On a global level, the elemental royalty should probably be up to 5 or 6 in their paths (F6 for the King of Flames, King of Magma should actually be able to cast the Magma spells, etc.). Temporary gemgens of types other than astral, water, and earth would be nice too. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 22:19
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Theres a real easy to forge temp gemgen for fire, its like f1 5 gems construction 2
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Oct 19, 2013 23:16
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This is still a thing?! Go home Dominions, you're drunk.
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Oct 20, 2013 00:06
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Single player and about turn 40, but might be interesting in a few rare cases if you hurry a bit faster and the throne isn't very good (just provides dominion spread (7) in this case). 5e6n and about 25 gems of each is the loot...
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Oct 20, 2013 00:36
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dis astranagant posted:I'm sorely tempted to go through and make a mod that gives leather caps to all the armor but no hat units. Something about hatless units just annoys the hell out of me. You could call it the TF2 mod.
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Oct 20, 2013 00:42
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TheDemon posted:I was thinking just upping the chaosrec to approach the difference between O3 and T3. But other than that, yeah. Also, this whole MP thing is taking years off my life. So much fretting. Over a computer game.
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Oct 20, 2013 03:23
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For anyone who's in MadPantheon, check the signup thread as I've made a large effortpost that is sorta important.
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Oct 20, 2013 05:21
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TheDemon posted:I was thinking just upping the chaosrec to approach the difference between O3 and T3. Definitely worth doing a little bit on the bigger oni, but remember there is a 240 point difference between O3 and T3 so they shouldn't really be comparable. Someone did mention giving the nation the spreadschaos tag. That way they'll spread chaos like Niefelheim spreads cold, which will be functionally similar as Niefel jarls fight like rear end in heat. Plus I also like obnoxious dominion/nation effects that aren't game changers like pop kill.
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Oct 20, 2013 16:40
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