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sincx posted:Well, I think BART management was probably emboldened by defeat in polls the Republicans took in Congress. Americans (understandably) don't take well to people who inconvenience the public for perceived selfish gains. Now there is a valid argument that improving conditions for one group of workers can eventually result in better conditions for all, but that isn't nearly enough consolation for the affected commuters who are suffering now. "BART Union refuses to strike but still ruins commutes!"
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Oct 18, 2013 18:04
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I too am ready for a round of programmers and tech yuppies claiming they could probably write the code to allow the trains to run themselves if they wanted to.
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Oct 18, 2013 21:46
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ProperGanderPusher posted:I too am ready for a round of programmers and tech yuppies claiming they could probably write the code to allow the trains to run themselves if they wanted to. You mean like they've already done, again: http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/17/could-bart-automate-train-drivers/ Actually, instead they asked several companies that sell automated train equipment and they said "Yes! It can be done and will save money!".
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Oct 18, 2013 21:53
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Trabisnikof posted:You mean like they've already done, again: http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/17/could-bart-automate-train-drivers/ To be fair, it seems that most automated systems (such as SkyTrain in Vancouver, BC) seem fairly well run. Granted, I've come to this conclusion after about five minutes of Googling. Are there any automated train systems out there that have done horribly or have bad reputations?
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Oct 18, 2013 22:03
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Sinking lots of money into far-reaching infrastructure improvements is almost as disliked by large organizations as spending lots of money on union labor.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:06
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Trabisnikof posted:Once again I amazed by the blatant media bias on this. The only pro-strike quote in the whole piece is "so I kind of favor them." There are at least 10 anti-union quotes. edit: The BART unions really do need to remember what tends to happen when the public is inconvenienced by a government transport union strike: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/07/31/an_old_lesson_still_holds_for_unions/ Given that today's Democrats are almost as right-wing as Reagan-era Republicans, the ATU/SEIU can't afford to antagonize the public like this. edit 2 (slightly off-topic): Wow, Reagan was the head of a union! (The SAG) And he led a 5-week strike! http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/11/what-reagan-did-for-hollywood/248391/ How things have changed. Maybe today's democrats are actually to the right of Reagan republicans. sincx fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 22:15
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sincx posted:Honestly that is probably the actual ratio of union supporters vs angry commuters in the Bay right now. Just look at comments on FB/Twitter. No no, you don't understand, it's somehow San Jose's fault.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:22
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sincx posted:Honestly that is probably the actual ratio of union supporters vs angry commuters in the Bay right now. Just look at comments on FB/Twitter. Even my most liberal friends from San Francisco appear to be having a really difficult time wrapping their head around the idea of unskilled workers who make six figures striking for more money.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:28
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I already thought they were already 90% automated? Just that drivers are in charge of doors (which may not be that easy to automate) and there for safety/insurance purposes.withak posted:Sinking lots of money into far-reaching infrastructure improvements is almost as disliked by large organizations as spending lots of money on union labor. Sad but true. I know management is probably lying when they say "Bu-but we need the money for upgrades" while they pay loving Tom Hock $400k to bullshit around, but it's also extremely unlikely for the State or Federal government to throw even the smallest amount of grant money for replacement cars as they did in the past so are there any numbers on how much after-expense revenue is coming in? sincx posted:Honestly that is probably the actual ratio of union supporters vs angry commuters in the Bay right now. Just look at comments on FB/Twitter. Yep, although the kind of people that leave comments on news-sites/FB tend to be Freeper-type morons as it is, pretty much everyone I met during last strike and today was blaming the union or "they're both bad!"-mentality at best. I don't hold it against them: people get really pissed off at even the slightly delay in getting to/from work and when they more or less lose the ability to get to work, they're going to be really angry and not think rationally about it. Couple that with the media flat out-lying by inflating salaries by including benefits (  disingenuous fucks) and ignoring a lot of details such as BART putting a hold on raises for 4 years since 2009 while management collects a shitload, and of course people are going to be even madder that some blue-collar worker is "making more" than them whilst "doing nothing" and losing their ability to get to work regardless of what they think politically.However, firing them all isn't likely to happen because there would be weeks while the system is down for re-training new hires which would cost. There aren't enough non-strikers/supervisors/management that could take over the load unlike for PATCO. More likely we will see some sort of legislation preventing public transit employee strikes or something.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:31
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Aerox posted:Even my most liberal friends from San Francisco appear to be having a really difficult time wrapping their head around the idea of unskilled workers who make six figures striking for more money.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:32
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Freeper morons will just post this from the SF Chronicle and go "checkmate, libs!"  
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Oct 18, 2013 22:34
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It is funny watching people whose overall worldview should put them in squarely in the pro-labor camp twist themselves into knots trying not to lose all of their progressive street cred while also being unable to avoid breaking out the "GREEDY UNION THUGS" line that has been beamed into our heads by the media for the last 30 years.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:37
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krysmopompas posted:Probably because it isn't anywhere close to being true. Do you have the info on actual salary stuff? I'm actually pretty supportive of the strike, from what I know about it, but most of the stuff I had been reading pegged salaries somewhere around $80k-$120k for a lot of positions.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:41
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I like how all of a sudden train drivers are "unskilled labor". Also twitter doesn't really replace a public opinion poll. Do you really think that someone should work for BART their entire life and not be able to afford a home and to send a kid to college (with 2 wages mind you)? The Bay Area is crazy expensive to live in, because even if you live somewhere cheap you pay for it in transportation costs.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:41
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withak posted:It is funny watching people whose overall worldview should put them in squarely in the pro-labor camp twist themselves into knots trying not to lose all of their progressive street cred while also being unable to avoid breaking out the "GREEDY UNION THUGS" line that has been beamed into our heads by the media for the last 30 years. It's not really their fault. It's a combination of innate human envy, deliberate (or merely incompetent) media reporting (i.e. artifically inflated salaries) across all outlets, and increased stress (cortisol) levels (from dealing with bunch of uncertainty with connections/driving/paying a lot more/spending up to 2 hours longer to get to work) that makes a recipe for misplaced anger from otherwise pro-labor people like that. Xaris fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 22:41
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Aerox posted:Do you have the info on actual salary stuff? I'm actually pretty supportive of the strike, from what I know about it, but most of the stuff I had been reading pegged salaries somewhere around $80k-$120k for a lot of positions. The average salary thrown around by BART management during the last strike was $73k, but I remember reading somewhere that if you calculated the average yourself from the publicly-available database of BART salaries then you get something in the low 60s.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:43
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Trabisnikof posted:I like how all of a sudden train drivers are "unskilled labor". Sorry that was a really poor choice of words on my part and I didn't mean to start an argument about whether the strike is valid or not (I think it is). I was just trying to comment on the stuff I had seen from my SF friends in relation to the strike, who are mostly people I consider fairly far left.
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Oct 18, 2013 22:43
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all the salaries plus OT by Emp are in the report I linked on the last page. You can drill through everything.....and there is a lot of OT obviously because of low staffing levels. http://enjalot.github.io/bart/#content under "How Much Do BART Employees Earn?" click a bubble (it's a person), orange are union emps 
Keyser_Soze fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Oct 18, 2013 |
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Oct 18, 2013 22:46
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I actually thought this is a pretty damning graph which should shut FB/Twitter people up:
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Oct 18, 2013 22:50
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Xaris posted:I actually thought this is a pretty damning graph which should shut FB/Twitter people up: What's 'Index'? I can believe the story the graph is attempting to tell (re: contrasting the salary debate vs inflation) but it does itself no favors by committing one of the sins of graphing (unclear units/axes).
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Oct 19, 2013 00:34
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Going to hazard a guess and say that it's a measurement designed to take nominal values of those various things and indexing them to a base value of 100 for the year 2000. A one point increase is 1% increase in fares or wages or inflation. It lets you plot everything using one unit, which makes comparison easier.
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Oct 19, 2013 00:43
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Xaris posted:It's not really their fault. It's a combination of innate human envy, deliberate (or merely incompetent) media reporting (i.e. artifically inflated salaries) across all outlets, and increased stress (cortisol) levels (from dealing with bunch of uncertainty with connections/driving/paying a lot more/spending up to 2 hours longer to get to work) that makes a recipe for misplaced anger from otherwise pro-labor people like that.
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Oct 19, 2013 00:48
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Keyser S0ze posted:all the salaries plus OT by Emp are in the report I linked on the last page. You can drill through everything.....and there is a lot of OT obviously because of low staffing levels. It bothers me that this defaults to "total cost per employee," when absolutely no one ever thinks in terms of that. Switch it to "base salary" to start.
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Oct 19, 2013 00:52
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I don't know a lot about the BART strike. I tend to be pro-union for most things, but in this case I'm not sure where I stand. It's because I am missing some info. What percentage of BART salaries are subsidized by the government? What percent comes directly from ticket sales? In what I see as a properly run mass transit operation, the government would handle the lions share. I suspect this is not the case, though. I'd guess that with higher wages will come higher fares which inconveniences everyone. The BART union holds far too much power over the public. Don't they? For instance, if teachers strike, it hurts education, but it doesn't have an immediate impact on the economy and on people who rely on that public service to make a living. It's no wonder the BART union is so disliked. Ultimately, the people will have to pay for any wage increases. But how directly will they be paying? That seems to be the crux of the matter.
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Oct 19, 2013 01:03
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Waltzing Along posted:I don't know a lot about the BART strike. I tend to be pro-union for most things, but in this case I'm not sure where I stand. It's because I am missing some info. http://www.bart.gov/docs/financials/FY2013_BART_Budget.pdf (See Page 5)  62% comes from passengers directly. About 35% comes from Sales Tax/Property Taxes from the counties in which BART operates which is sort of from the government, but considering how vital it is to the Bay Area these are pretty much things that passengers (and even non-riders who benefit from less congestion) pay indirectly. Other counties have cheaper sales tax for example so these aren't general funds. Actual State and Federal assistance is pathetically low. Currently fare is based on CPI/inflation so they're going to rise--whether we see a further rise as a result of the strike is something I would also expect. If only so management (and the media) can demonize unions further going "We had to raise fares because the unions made us!  ").Now, I do agree to an extent that loving over almost half a million people is quite devastating and part of me wishes that it couldn't happen. But what's the alternative though? What sort of collecting bargaining power do unions have to exert if not for strikes? I'm genuinely curious about this. Xaris fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 01:29
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BART raises fares every two years (on a schedule) specifically to avoid the possibility of it getting politicized that way. (I don't know if the amounts are set beforehand.)
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Oct 19, 2013 02:42
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From the sound of things, what hosed up the deal was the management wanting to go to ten-hour shifts (or to write up the schedules to get overlapping shifts). Management wants to do this because paying two hours of overtime on every single shift is incredibly expensive, and the union doesn't want this because getting two hours of overtime on every single shift is incredibly lucrative.
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Oct 19, 2013 03:45
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If anyone hasn't seen it, this has a list of all bay area public employees salaries. http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area/2012 Also of note, BART's highest paid employee last year didn't work a day. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23416601/barts-top-paid-worker-2012-never-worked-day I'm a public employee I also pay a pension contribution, as has been noted, BART employees are reluctant to reach a deal that includes a raise, but also demands a pension contribution, which would eat up much of that raise. dr.gigolo fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Oct 19, 2013 |
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Oct 19, 2013 07:23
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The union offered to end the strike at 10pm tonight if management agreed to go to arbitration over the work schedule issue, and management refused. Which basically means that they are aware that this is a pretty ridiculous demand and don't want it near any kind of neutral third party for comment.
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Oct 19, 2013 07:57
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withak posted:The union offered to end the strike at 10pm tonight if management agreed to go to arbitration over the work schedule issue, and management refused. Which basically means that they are aware that this is a pretty ridiculous demand and don't want it near any kind of neutral third party for comment. Keep in mind that the union's "offer" is really more like "do everything we want and we'll consider going back to work...tomorrow."
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Oct 19, 2013 08:24
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Miss-Bomarc posted:Or it means they want to deal with the issue now and not just kick it another six months down the road, which is all that "submitting to an arbitrator" will actually do. Nope. Also, gently caress you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 19, 2013 09:44
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dr.gigolo posted:Also of note, BART's highest paid employee last year didn't work a day. Also note that that employee is Management not a Union member. Miss-Bomarc posted:Or it means they want to deal with the issue now and not just kick it another six months down the road, which is all that "submitting to an arbitrator" will actually do. You clearly didn't actually read the offer then. It included accepting previously agreed upon compromises between the union and management for the vast majority of issues and engaging in binding arbitration for the rest. I don't see how the union could do its job and offer management a better offer than that. Binding arbitration and an end to the strike would be the best option for the public, but management refuses because they know the union gets more flack during strikes (plus no one gets paid).
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Oct 19, 2013 20:42
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Miss-Bomarc posted:Keep in mind that the union's "offer" is really more like "do everything we want and we'll consider going back to work...tomorrow." Their offer was everything that has been negotiated and agreed to by both parties so far, with the single outstanding issue to be decided by an independent arbitrator after everyone goes back to work. There is literally no reasonable excuse for management to not agree to that if they have any interest in negotiating in good faith.
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Oct 19, 2013 21:30
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Management has officially said they won't make any new offers, and that they will hold out until the unions cave.
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Oct 19, 2013 21:33
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withak posted:Their offer was everything that has been negotiated and agreed to by both parties so far, with the single outstanding issue to be decided by an independent arbitrator after everyone goes back to work. quote:There is literally no reasonable excuse for management to not agree to that if they have any interest in negotiating in good faith. Also, do you believe management when they say that eliminating overtime through rescheduling was the reason they agreed to the deal in the first place?
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Oct 20, 2013 00:04
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One of the reasons BART workers are striking is because of concerns about safety. And guess what happened today? Two BART workers were struck by a train and killed: http://sfappeal.com/2013/10/bart-train-reportedly-strikes-two-people/ But according to your average person who's only concerned about any of this just because their commute was screwed with, it's the workers and unions that are horrible and at fault for anything that goes wrong. "gently caress workers rights, it took twice as long for me to get to my own job, therefore unions are all horrible and all BART workers should be fired!" 
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Oct 20, 2013 00:34
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Miss-Bomarc posted:So I was wrong; the union had agreed on a deal, and then management wanted to talk about the work rules, and the union decided gently caress THAT poo poo WE STRIKE. The work rules was the last thing on the list to negotiate; it didn't just appear out of nowhere. If management made concessions early on assuming that they would get their way on the work rules then that was a pretty dumb thing to do.
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Oct 20, 2013 00:40
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Rah! posted:One of the reasons BART workers are striking is because of concerns about safety. And guess what happened today? Two BART workers were struck by a train and killed: Countdown until someone accuses the union of plotting this to help in the negotiation...
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Oct 20, 2013 00:41
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Miss-Bomarc posted:So I was wrong; the union had agreed on a deal, and then management wanted to talk about the work rules, and the union decided gently caress THAT poo poo WE STRIKE. Wow, so did you just learn about this labor dispute today? Because in reality management has been classically unwilling to negotiate. For example, the BART management's chief labor negotiator (who is a hired gun brought in and has a history of slow rolling unions) took vacation in the middle of negotiations. There are numerous examples throughout press reports of planned negotiation sessions that management agreed to and then just didn't attend as a hard-ball tactic. Management has also said several times that they will not compromise with the union, their last offer is take it or strike. So the fact is that the union is offering yet another deal while management refuses to budge or agree to keep trains running while negotiations continue. Management is the one calling for the strike to last until one side gives up completely because they believe the unions will be hurt more than they will.
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Oct 20, 2013 00:43
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Speaking of management loving things up, here's some more info on those two workers getting killed today: http://www.contracostatimes.com/news/ci_24345866/bart-train-strikes-two-people-near-walnut-creek quote:Sources say the two dead workers were non-union engineers performing track inspections when a manager operating a four-car train with six people on board hit them... But let's not be naive, it's clearly the fault of the workers and unions, and them alone, when things like this happen!
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Oct 20, 2013 00:52
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