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Chucat posted:I know it's not in the films but if I recall correctly in the last episode of the Tartakovsky cartoon Mace Windu just went "gently caress this" and crushed Grevious' chest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1UPccudqmU It makes the fight in Revenge looks silly in comparison.
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Oct 13, 2013 02:53
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Brinner posted:Wait what, Grevious has the transfused blood of Master Syfo-Dyas no? Hence his Jedi training from dooku, and the difficulty he faces for other Jedi. It still doesn't make sense. The only explanation of why Jedi don't just hurl each other around constantly is that they can ward off that kind of thing with their Force power, but Grievous doesn't have any Force ability whatsoever. I'm kind of ashamed that as a gigantic Star Wars fan I never realized how little sense Grievous makes before right now
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Oct 13, 2013 04:11
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Mandrel posted:It still doesn't make sense. The only explanation of why Jedi don't just hurl each other around constantly is that they can ward off that kind of thing with their Force power, but Grievous doesn't have any Force ability whatsoever. I'm kind of ashamed that as a gigantic Star Wars fan I never realized how little sense Grievous makes before right now Long answer: Grevious is skilled in fighting with lightsabers, since lightsabers are a Jedi weapon, they just assumed he was a very skilled Jedi that happened to be a cyborg or something, so they didn't even consider trying to choke him or crush him or anything like that because it'd be completely and utterly pointless and while you were doing that he'd be carving you up. Short answer: Every Jedi
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Oct 13, 2013 08:20
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Brinner posted:Wait what, Grevious has the transfused blood of Master Syfo-Dyas no? Hence his Jedi training from dooku, and the difficulty he faces for other Jedi. Wait, what? I have only seen AOTC and ROTS once, doesn't AOTC imply that Syfo-Dias is Sideous? Syfo-Dias, Sideous. Similar and I thought the same. Is Syfo-Dias some EU thing then or did I misinterpret it?
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Oct 13, 2013 11:00
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Wank posted:Wait, what? I have only seen AOTC and ROTS once, doesn't AOTC imply that Syfo-Dias is Sideous? Syfo-Dias, Sideous. Similar and I thought the same. Is Syfo-Dias some EU thing then or did I misinterpret it? Obi Wan's conversation with Yoda on Kamino implies that Syfo Dyas was a real Jedi Council member that either was working with Palpatine or was killed by Palpatine, who then assumed his identity to make the army
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Oct 13, 2013 12:43
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Wank posted:Wait, what? I have only seen AOTC and ROTS once, doesn't AOTC imply that Syfo-Dias is Sideous? Syfo-Dias, Sideous. Similar and I thought the same. Is Syfo-Dias some EU thing then or did I misinterpret it? Now that you mention it, I do believe it is technically EU. While you are right about what the films portray, originally Sifo-dyas's story was meant to be expanded upon in the 3rd movie. They ended up releasing a novel in the interim titled Labyrinth of Evil, as well as a few comics.
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Oct 13, 2013 15:08
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aBagorn posted:Obi Wan's conversation with Yoda on Kamino implies that Syfo Dyas was a real Jedi Council member that either was working with Palpatine or was killed by Palpatine, who then assumed his identity to make the army In any event it's strange that that plot point was established as something of a mystery in episode 2, and then went completely unexplained and uncommented on in episode 3. Why is it worth mentioning that a Jedi we had never heard of before and never heard of again purchased the clone army? I feel like Qui Gon was originally come into play in episode 3 as having had something to do with it, but then because of scheduling conflicts or whatever reason it never happened. A more fun assumption to make is that the Sypho-Dyas who was on the Jedi Council was actually just Palpatine wearing a fake mustache, keeping tabs on the council and spreading dissent.
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Oct 13, 2013 21:45
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The Sifo-Dias plot point rules because it's transparently obvious that he's Palpatine, and yet it's never 'officially' resolved because the Jedi are dumb and clouded by the dark side. Instead of figuring things out, Yoda is just happy to feel relevant. The 'failure' of the plot is a failure of the characters. Then, since wookiepedia demands an official, canonical explanation, the EU bullshits a lump of fake plotting right into a waiting shopping cart.
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Oct 13, 2013 22:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Sifo-Dias plot point rules because it's transparently obvious that he's Palpatine, and yet it's never 'officially' resolved because the Jedi are dumb and clouded by the dark side. Instead of figuring things out, Yoda is just happy to feel relevant. The 'failure' of the plot is a failure of the characters. Well it's confusing because after it is clear that Sifo-dias is Palpatine wearing a moustache, the movie then goes to some effort to explain that Sifo-Dias actually is a real person the Jedi used to hang out with, who is not Palpatine or Dooku. You can pretty clearly extrapolate that Palpatine made the order under this dude's name right when he died, it's a serviceable mystery, just very clumsy in its execution. I just googled him and the EU apparently has this elaborate explanation involving betrayal and visions of the future... why? I don't know.
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Oct 13, 2013 22:24
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One of the "bonus episodes" of Clone Wars coming out in early 2014 is going to involve Syfo-Dias in some way. So that may shed some light on (or very possibly further confuse) the issue.
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Oct 14, 2013 00:29
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Frackie Robinson posted:A more fun assumption to make is that the Sypho-Dyas who was on the Jedi Council was actually just Palpatine wearing a fake mustache, keeping tabs on the council and spreading dissent. Hmm, now that I think about it more (with what aBagorn said) I kind of remember thinking Syfo-Dias is a small attempt to give Palpatine some backstory. My expectation was exactly above (and it mirrors what Obi-Wan tells Luke about Darth Vader) that Sideous IS Syfo-Dias not that he literally murdered Syfo-Dias and stole his identity. How that is supposed to actually play out, i.e. fake moustache, I don't know and it doesn't really matter. It is funny, Lucas has some really neat ideas in the Prequels but the EU always seems to take them the completely wrong way (and Star Wars nerds, I suppose). For example, I believe the Jedi Council are literally supposed to be "bad" (or at least not the "good guys" in the way you would expect) in the prequels, that is completely implied and I don't care what even Lucas says about that.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:02
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Wank posted:
Yoda actually tells Mace Windu (or maybe it was Obi-Wan) "yup we've been dumb blind assholes this whole time" sometime in episode 3 so I'm guessing that was at least partially the intent.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:52
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Wank posted:For example, I believe the Jedi Council are literally supposed to be "bad" (or at least not the "good guys" in the way you would expect) in the prequels, that is completely implied and I don't care what even Lucas says about that. The movie doesn't do anything with this at all, sadly. The subtext is in there, but the movie itself is framed as though the Jedi were the good guys all along with only a few brief moments where it's really openly implied (and usually by Anakin, the really evil one). There's something to be said about these movies being pro-Jedi propoganda retellings of history, intentionally vague enough for that to be plausible. It would have been nicer if Anakin's betrayal had been a little more nuanced. I love the idea that turning Sith was basically an honest person's reaction to the Jedi at their totalitarian height, and Yoda and Obi-Wan get a lifetime to think in exile, about how on some level it's all their fault and this makes them wiser, but instead you get a madman who kills a bunch of children and then says 'from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!' Which is just...wrong on so many levels. What kind of person says that out loud? How can he justify that point of view with all the child murder? The Jedi are pretty evil, and somehow Lucas managed to create a villain so much more evil their claims about who is evil and who isn't just fall on deaf ears. In other words Lucas is a postmodern genius.
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Oct 14, 2013 03:57
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Wank posted:Hmm, now that I think about it more (with what aBagorn said) I kind of remember thinking Syfo-Dias is a small attempt to give Palpatine some backstory. My expectation was exactly above (and it mirrors what Obi-Wan tells Luke about Darth Vader) that Sideous IS Syfo-Dias not that he literally murdered Syfo-Dias and stole his identity. How that is supposed to actually play out, i.e. fake moustache, I don't know and it doesn't really matter. Syfo-Dias was most likely Lucas changing his mind about something between movies. Just an abandoned idea.
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Oct 14, 2013 15:14
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I thought the Jedi didn't just hurl Grievous around with the Force because their position was that the Force was for defense, never directly attacking with it. Isn't that supposed to be the contrast between Vader (choking the poo poo out of dudes, hurling boxes into people) and Luke (Force superjump, lightsaber deflection) and why it's supposed to be disturbing that Luke chokes the guards at Jabba's palace?
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Oct 14, 2013 20:28
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I thought the Jedi didn't just hurl Grievous around with the Force because their position was that the Force was for defense, never directly attacking with it. Isn't that supposed to be the contrast between Vader (choking the poo poo out of dudes, hurling boxes into people) and Luke (Force superjump, lightsaber deflection) and why it's supposed to be disturbing that Luke chokes the guards at Jabba's palace? Plenty of force pushes going on against droids and aliens from the Jedi.
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Oct 14, 2013 20:37
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I had always assumed that whatever tiny organs and brain were left on Grievous they still had some kind of force sensitivity. If not, well...that's loving stupid.
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Oct 14, 2013 20:54
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I thought the Jedi didn't just hurl Grievous around with the Force because their position was that the Force was for defense, never directly attacking with it. Isn't that supposed to be the contrast between Vader (choking the poo poo out of dudes, hurling boxes into people) and Luke (Force superjump, lightsaber deflection) and why it's supposed to be disturbing that Luke chokes the guards at Jabba's palace? In the OT, yes. Force is typically defense for Yoda/Obi Wan/Luke, and offense for Vader/Palpatine. Luke uses choke offensively at the beginning of Return when he's hooded though. In the PT, Obi Wan and Anakin get into DBZ style force push battles with each other and Qui Gon and Obi Wan fling droids around with it.
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Oct 14, 2013 21:05
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Darko posted:Syfo-Dias was most likely Lucas changing his mind about something between movies. Just an abandoned idea. I did some more googling because I am ocd and was not satisfied with our discussion and found out that in an early draft, his name was "Sido-Dias" and Obi Wan and Yoda both react like "Who? We've never heard of this guy". So he was originally definitely Palpatine with a mustache, then somewhere along the way Lucas made him an actual person.
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Oct 14, 2013 23:58
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Tender Bender posted:I did some more googling because I am ocd and was not satisfied with our discussion and found out that in an early draft, his name was "Sido-Dias" and Obi Wan and Yoda both react like "Who? We've never heard of this guy". So he was originally definitely Palpatine with a mustache, then somewhere along the way Lucas made him an actual person. That script also contained some good foreshadowing for Dooku in exposition early on stating how awesome he was at lightsabers, right? Although, I guess that was filed in the deleted sequences or something.
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Oct 15, 2013 00:40
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Speaking of good Star Wars characters ruined by Star Wars: Dooku. The guy in Attack of the Clones seems almost like it pains him to be siding against the Jedi, like he might actually be just a guy with a different perspective on what was right and how the Jedi had lost their way. He seems genuinely upset when the Jedi refuse to surrender peacefully. But thanks to the Expanded Universe, he's a huge rear end in a top hat evilman who killed his best friend to prove himself to the dark lord and fed his blood to a robot for some reason. Like, he can be a bad guy, fine, but don't make him so crazy evil about it. Gahh, this annoys me to an unreasonable degree.
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Oct 15, 2013 02:24
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Hbomberguy posted:Speaking of good Star Wars characters ruined by Star Wars: Dooku. The guy in Attack of the Clones seems almost like it pains him to be siding against the Jedi, like he might actually be just a guy with a different perspective on what was right and how the Jedi had lost their way. He seems genuinely upset when the Jedi refuse to surrender peacefully. This is why I don't pay attention to the EU and I am glad the new movies are mostly ignoring it. Count Dooku was a cool character in an otherwise not cool movie, and seeing the look on his face when he realizes Sidious was betraying him was actually really cool. drat it.
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Oct 15, 2013 04:05
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I can't stop wanting to rewatch the prequels. I just did, and now I want to again. Most scenes CANNOT remain inside my brain, they just pour out of my head as I'm rewatching them. The last time I watched Phantom Menace I can't for the life of me remember seeing the fight in the desert. I don't know if it's the pacing or what, but barely any of these movies' scenes stick with me. The Phantom menace is over two hours, but it feels like forty minutes that could do with another four hours for context. I don't even know how that's possible. I think that's why people like the Expanded Universe, it quenches the utter thirst the prequel movies give you for context, just to figure out what's going on.
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Oct 15, 2013 04:40
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Wank posted:Hmm, now that I think about it more (with what aBagorn said) I kind of remember thinking Syfo-Dias is a small attempt to give Palpatine some backstory. My expectation was exactly above (and it mirrors what Obi-Wan tells Luke about Darth Vader) that Sideous IS Syfo-Dias not that he literally murdered Syfo-Dias and stole his identity. How that is supposed to actually play out, i.e. fake moustache, I don't know and it doesn't really matter. Palpatine probably just showed up at the council one day in disguise going, "Oh hey guys I'm a Jedi too, mind if I sit in on your meeting today?" And they were just like, "sure whatever, cool" and never really bothered to check out his credentials. The Jedi Council in the prequels isn't evil, it's just lovely and stupid. It's not even subtle, we have a scene where Windu comes to Yoda and asks if they should tell the senate that they don't know what they're doing anymore, and Yoda's like "Nah, better not." General Dog fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Oct 15, 2013 |
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Oct 15, 2013 05:04
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kiimo posted:I had always assumed that whatever tiny organs and brain were left on Grievous they still had some kind of force sensitivity. General Grievous was a pretty stupid idea and a wholly unnecessary character.
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Oct 20, 2013 04:15
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So a great fit in a pretty stupid and wholly unnecessary trilogy.
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Oct 20, 2013 04:26
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Hbomberguy posted:Speaking of good Star Wars characters ruined by Star Wars: Dooku. The guy in Attack of the Clones seems almost like it pains him to be siding against the Jedi, like he might actually be just a guy with a different perspective on what was right and how the Jedi had lost their way. He seems genuinely upset when the Jedi refuse to surrender peacefully. The scene where Dooku talks to Obi Wan while he's held in the force field on Geonosis. People (and the movies) forget about it. "You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!" You know, maybe he was being serious. After all he was the guy sort of in charge of the troops fighting Palpatine's guys.
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Oct 20, 2013 14:08
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There are heroes on both sides!
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Oct 20, 2013 14:20
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BiggestOrangeTree posted:The scene where Dooku talks to Obi Wan while he's held in the force field on Geonosis. People (and the movies) forget about it. "You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith!" You know, maybe he was being serious. After all he was the guy sort of in charge of the troops fighting Palpatine's guys. Nah, that was just some poetry. It rhymes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxU2eqZtYmc
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Oct 20, 2013 14:37
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Basically, the trio of "apprentices" in the prequels are all copies of Darth Vader, but ones that can only emphasize particular elements. Maul is most like Vader visually, with black hood and cloak, Dooku takes the urbane, articulate Vader, and Grievous is Vader the cyborg. All of them also exceed the original trilogy's weapons- Maul has the double-sided laser sword, Dooku the laser sword with the funny handle, and Grievous has four laser swords. This is even funnier when you consider the variety of EU efforts to make special laser swords too. I think that Grievous probably isn't meant to be Force-sensitive, and is only able to kill Jedi because modern Jedi don't understand the Force well enough. Obi-Wan, who within the films doesn't adhere to the rigid, false code of the Jedi, is able to fight him and win, because he has a better understanding of the Force and thus a better connection to it. This is why Obi-Wan and Anakin are able to throw each other around in ROTS- both of them have truer connections to the Force and so are able to knock other people around where latter-day Jedi cannot, but neither has yet understood the principles that lead Jedi to not throw people around. Droids also fairly obviously have a presence in the Force, going by TESB's dialogue, but the elitist notion of the Force generally present in Star Wars fans' collective imaginations leads people to assume that droids are incapable of using the Force, with the only contrary EU notion being a mediocre short story.
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Oct 23, 2013 16:35
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Effectronica posted:I think that Grievous probably isn't meant to be Force-sensitive, and is only able to kill Jedi because modern Jedi don't understand the Force well enough. I'd never considered that conversation beyond an explanation for Anakin's behavior, but in light of what we saw in ROTS, it would be helpful in executing Order 66 if a good portion of the targets were oblivious with a smug superiority over the clones. Given that Yoda indicates that it's a recent phenomenon, I wonder how Sideous pulled it off? Probably some propaganda that Jedi would never consider bad for them, like holo-programming proclaiming how awesome they are.
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Oct 23, 2013 16:56
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Cheesus posted:I wonder how Sideous pulled it off? Probably some propaganda that Jedi would never consider bad for them, like holo-programming proclaiming how awesome they are. His dependence on the Jedi as 'defenders of the republic' wouldn't have hurt.
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Oct 24, 2013 00:04
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Darko posted:Syfo-Dias was most likely Lucas changing his mind about something between movies. Just an abandoned idea. Wasn't Syfo-Dias someone accidentally mistranscribing the name into a horrendous typo and Lucas just rolling with it?
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Oct 24, 2013 03:36
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Cheesus posted:Based on Obi-wan's conversation with Yoda and Mace in the temple in AOTC, I think answer is that More accurate summation I think. The prequel era Jedi are screwed up massively and (even worse) think they're better than ever. I mean, Obi-Wan has to literally ask a five year old to figure out "uh, maybe Kamino isn't in our perfect archive"; that's just sad when you think about Obi-Wan being one of the BETTER Jedi in the prequels. You'll note how fast the Jedi Council members died to Palpatine when they went to arrest him, the only one of the Jedi who actually beat Palpatine was their greatest combatant Mace. I still love the bit in the ROTS novelization where Yoda realizes in his fight that not only could he not beat the Emperor, he never had a chance to begin with. The prequel Jedi are flashy and all, but on reflection they aren't actually very good at dealing with anything approaching them in skill. Probably doesn't help way back a thousand years ago when the Sith were supposedly beaten at Ruusan they took most of the warrior Jedi with them; the majority left (who would be running things) would have been the more passive Jedi who weren't in the fighting (or, more cynically, the ones too busy navel-gazing to focus on dealing with the little Sith problem then). With those issues, I can see a cybered up warrior like Grievous being able to match and defeat them in droves. Though really I prefer Jedi being vulnerable to talented non-Force sensitives as a rule anyway (I rather liked Jango blowing one away in AOTC); keeps 'em more grounded and doesn't leave the average people as chumps.
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Oct 24, 2013 08:45
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One thing that would've worked is to play up the "knight" part of the Jedi Knights, portraying them as sort of a feudal warrior aristocracy, with the Jedi Order being literally a religious knightly order. Their arrogance and decadence would be communicated in a language westerners understand natively, for one thing. The potential class undertones of that would be different, though: the clones would then more obviously be an underclass, which Palpatine literally created from nothing in order to use against his enemies. Anakin's background would take on a different significance as well.
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Oct 24, 2013 15:46
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Bongo Bill posted:which Palpatine literally created from nothing  Rude.
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Oct 24, 2013 18:23
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Michael Arndt's out.Variety posted:J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan have taken over screenwriting duties on “Star Wars: Episode VII,” replacing Michael Arndt, who was originally penning the project. And, as to (apparently) why...  I mean, Kasdan will probably churn out a good script, but gently caress if my interest in Episode 7 didn't drop significantly after hearing this.  VVVVV Not so much that, it's just that we're probably getting a more "traditional" (given Kasdan's history and JJ's self-admitted fanboy-ism) Star Wars movie rather than whatever crazy thing the writer of Toy Story 3 and Little Miss Sunshine might have dreamed up. I'll admit though, I'm being needlessly nitpicky, especially at this early point in the film's production. 
Cross-Section fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 23:07
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Cross-Section posted:Michael Arndt's out. Are you seriously bummed that the man who wrote The Empire Strikes Back got hired for the new Star Wars movie?
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Oct 24, 2013 23:28
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Lawrence Kasdan being involved is the most exciting thing I've heard about this movie. I wonder how this "major shift in the story" meshes with previous claims that they were working from an outline, or something like that, provided by George Lucas.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:50
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Twist ending: Supershadow.com was right about everything.
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