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Although in long-form, Elite-like space epics, I'd definitely rather have Newtonian flight and translation, I'm taking a wild guess that not only has ES already been developed with a flight model that lacks these, but that it is going to be really awesome even without 'em. Tie Fighter managed, Elite managed, this will also. I can suspend my disbelief. Not that I'm that flexible with all space sim tropes, for example, I will never ever use a mouse to fly a space ship. That's just awful. Or use a joystick configuration where pushing forward aims my nose upward.
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Sep 30, 2013 07:51
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Kairo posted:Non-Rift support is a priority and always will be, but being one of the earliest kickstarters for the thing (first-ish batch), I knew I wanted to play the game with it. Gimmick or not, resources will continue to be devoted to it and since my time is finite, it will probably come at the expense of a few minor things. That's just how it goes! Will there be TrackIR support?
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Sep 30, 2013 09:19
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General Battuta posted:Off-axis thrust often antisynergizes with this mechanic because it allows ships to 'cheat' their energy management - you get cool additional tools, but they open up loopholes in flight behavior that break the connection between turn management and attack. Real-world vectored thrust does this. It allows aircraft with the required equipment a degree of maneuverability not generally available to similar aircraft without it. If this is what you mean by "cheating" energy management, I suppose that's true. I don't think there's any reason why off-axis thrust has to break energy management, but it certainly allows craft equipped with it additional tools to alter their vector. It occurs to me that giving it to certain elite AI craft and denying it to the player might be a way of making particular foes extra-challenging, like dogfighting the more recent supermaneuverable Sukhois in Falcon.
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Sep 30, 2013 10:03
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Is this like movement in Descent or something different? I loved Descent and Descent 2 but it never felt like I was a spaceship.
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Sep 30, 2013 14:58
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Paper Mac posted:Real-world vectored thrust does this. It allows aircraft with the required equipment a degree of maneuverability not generally available to similar aircraft without it. If this is what you mean by "cheating" energy management, I suppose that's true. I don't think there's any reason why off-axis thrust has to break energy management, but it certainly allows craft equipped with it additional tools to alter their vector. It occurs to me that giving it to certain elite AI craft and denying it to the player might be a way of making particular foes extra-challenging, like dogfighting the more recent supermaneuverable Sukhois in Falcon. If you're going to add it, it would be fun if only a few ships had the thrusters and they were a big part of that ship's design. Like, say, the ships with reverse-afterburn in BP. Whether a ship has reverse thrusters or not matters a lot for its maneuverability, and the ships that tend to have them are usually superiority fighters (Uriel excepted). There's nothing inherently wrong with adding in that ability as long as that ability comes at a cost elsewhere. I generally agree with Battuta in that I prefer not having them, but having a ship or two that can use them wouldn't be awful, especially if they were experimental ships and lacking in weapons, armor, or both compared to other ships of their class.
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Sep 30, 2013 15:21
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Bell_ posted:Is this like movement in Descent or something different? I loved Descent and Descent 2 but it never felt like I was a spaceship. It was a 3d FPS model of movement, and not something that gets discussed. 'Strafe' in X (the games) essentially does a lateral thrust in a direction of your choosing that helps avoidance during approach, and doesn't really help with 'death circling' unless you're in something small and fast versus something big and slow. 'Slide' is more where you turn off the compensators and keep going in the same direction that you thrusted in; The later wing commander games (Prophecy at least) used to have these, but you didn't really want to moving on an easily predicted vector around a capital ship. The same game had the Vampire, which was ridiculously maneuverable due to vectored engines and negated much of the need for 'sliding'.
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Sep 30, 2013 15:50
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Sure has been quiet in this thread recently, any interesting news to be had? I want to stay excited about this.
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Oct 21, 2013 00:58
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He's been messing around with his planet generation: https://twitter.com/tipul/status/390347883083341824/photo/1 https://twitter.com/tipul/status/390375548574130176/photo/1 Also PC Gamer named Enemy Starfighter one of 14 space games you should be excited about right now so there's that also. Nothing else to report.
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Oct 21, 2013 02:34
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I just watched a few minutes of gameplay on twitch, it looks and sounds marvelous. WHen you see trailers you know that bits have been cherry picked, but watching unedited gameplay shows the quality exists throughout the game.
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Oct 23, 2013 01:11
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ROCKET SCIENCE
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illectro posted:I just watched a few minutes of gameplay on twitch, it looks and sounds marvelous. WHen you see trailers you know that bits have been cherry picked, but watching unedited gameplay shows the quality exists throughout the game. I'm shattered as I missed this stream by about 5 minutes. I hope it gets archived.
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Oct 23, 2013 01:18
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Twitch autoarchives so it should be available to watch later. I missed it to so I'd like to see it. A bunch of space games are coming out in the next year or so but this was the only one that grabbed me instantly. I'm still following the others but the Homeworld/Terran Trade Authority art style got me good.
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Oct 23, 2013 01:28
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Evek posted:Twitch autoarchives so it should be available to watch later. I missed it to so I'd like to see it. Problem is they turned auto archive off by default, so unless you set it back on the stream is gone. A lot of people don't know that its like that, sadly. Hence my concern.
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Oct 23, 2013 01:47
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I am sorry, I didn't know to turn on the archiving.  Probably because I'm getting old, I'm getting horrible at the internet. You kids and your twitters. Sorry that it's been quiet lately. A lot of little stuff has been going in, mainly usability work. Things like only being able to select subsystems when the camera is close enough to a capital ship. What used to happen is that you'd try selecting a whole ship 4km away and you'd have to play "find the correct pixel" and hope you won before you flew into a rage and turned the whole fleet around right there. I think I am going to do streams where I do actual feature work, maybe at a regular time during the week. One of the things that has been suggested is adding re-arming capabilities on your capital ships, so that might be the first thing I stream. It's going to be Battlefield-simple, like fly close enough to the ship and have it ka-chunk-ka-chunk-ka-chunk your ammo until it's full. But I will probably make a subsystem out of it so enemy fighters can bring it down temporarily if you're not careful.
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Oct 23, 2013 02:46
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Kairo posted:I am sorry, I didn't know to turn on the archiving. Why not do something similar to TIE Fighter where you could target a ship and then cycle through subsystem targets with a different key?
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Oct 23, 2013 02:56
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Derek Dominoe posted:Why not do something similar to TIE Fighter where you could target a ship and then cycle through subsystem targets with a different key? If I was doing a game like this, I'd choke down on the number of potential subsystems to four, so you could just use keybinds to automatically target the subsystem you want. Something like engines, weapons, shields / defenses, and (for this game at least) communications. Only one target to shoot for the entire set of that system, you're shooting the crucial weak point to shut down all the guns or thrusters for a short time.
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Oct 23, 2013 03:19
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Derek Dominoe posted:Why not do something similar to TIE Fighter where you could target a ship and then cycle through subsystem targets with a different key? When you're in the cockpit, it works like this, even with TIE-Fighter default controls. I'm talking about the map, where it's generally mouse-driven. Should have clarified! quote:Only one target to shoot for the entire set of that system, you're shooting the crucial weak point to shut down all the guns or thrusters for a short time. Yeah, this is a good idea. If I feel like I should chop it down even further, it will probably be something like this. For now, I'll try to keep the subsystem count down, at least on ships you're going to be shooting at (having 3+ gently caress-off turrets on your own battleships is awesome).
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Oct 23, 2013 03:34
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Kairo posted:I am sorry, I didn't know to turn on the archiving. Hah. Its all good man. Twitch didn't tell anybody... they just sort of did it.
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Oct 23, 2013 03:49
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Brendon Chung has been streaming (I think daily?) his Quadrilateral Cowboy dev process for a little while and I'm never around when it happens. If you started streaming Enemy Starfighter development that would be pretty cool, especially if it's at a fixed time so I could at least try to catch it.
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Oct 23, 2013 04:04
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Kairo posted:Yeah, this is a good idea. If I feel like I should chop it down even further, it will probably be something like this. For now, I'll try to keep the subsystem count down, at least on ships you're going to be shooting at (having 3+ gently caress-off turrets on your own battleships is awesome). If it doesn't lag your computer when it fires all the beams, it's not enough beams.
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Oct 23, 2013 04:14
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Kairo posted:Yeah, this is a good idea. If I feel like I should chop it down even further, it will probably be something like this. For now, I'll try to keep the subsystem count down, at least on ships you're going to be shooting at (having 3+ gently caress-off turrets on your own battleships is awesome). The Muffinlord posted:If it doesn't lag your computer when it fires all the beams, it's not enough beams. This man knows what is right  I never really cared much for subsystem targeting in any game, personally. I think the only game I ever used it in was Homeworld 2 and that was because the cheating AI just wouldn't stop making ships.  I wouldn't mind if any subsystems that do exist are kept to a minimum, and basic ones at that. Important (ie. the big ones) weapon batteries, engines, things like that. Too many options and I just start shooting at the nearest section of hull.I'm a terrible space fighter sim player.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:59
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What if the systems just lit up on the HUD instead of being a "lock?" That way, you can make a pass, and if you have an opportunity, knock something out, damage it, or temporarily hurt it. Or no lighting up on the HUD at all. Maybe you can study a schematic, or learn through trial and error, what to hit, look for last-second opportunities. Maybe your sensors aren't sophisticated enough on their own that you can immediately tell that you've knocked something out, you just see the ship behave a certain way. Or a sensor vessel on your side can report it to you if it's along for the ride. That might be kinda interesting. It also depends on how/if shields are being used here, maybe I'm missing that. Is there locational shield damage on larger vessels? Is there locational hull damage? Please don't get me wrong. I'm not disappointed if these questions haven't been entertained yet, or if the game ends up going with the old standbys of magic bubble shields and hulls, since so much of the game already is doing so much else that I've been waiting for. I just can't wait to be an Enemy Starfighter.
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Oct 23, 2013 08:11
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Kibayasu posted:This man knows what is right I'm not strategy game smart enough to know when AI is cheating, but I loved taking out subsystems in HW2. My most epic moment was sending a flight of bombers and intercepters way around the main battle to take out the enemy carrier manufacturing subsystems. It gave my capital ships a chance to take on their main fleet without threat of endless reinforcements. And, while there were a lot of annoying aspects to Nexus: The Jupiter Incident's gameplay, I really liked that EVERY capital ship had the same set of subsystems to you could take out. You didn't actually have to do so depending on your weapons, but I'd always have my small fast ships outfitted to take out shield and weapon subsystems and then let the big ships finish them off. Maybe I just have some kind of subsystem targeting obsession.
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Oct 23, 2013 15:40
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I can't remember, could you damage a subsystem in X-Wing or TIE Fighter w/o targeting it? I vaguely remember being able to sit outside STD shield radomes and blast away w/o targeting them, but it's been a while.
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Oct 23, 2013 15:40
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Paper Mac posted:I can't remember, could you damage a subsystem in X-Wing or TIE Fighter w/o targeting it? I vaguely remember being able to sit outside STD shield radomes and blast away w/o targeting them, but it's been a while. X-Wing didn't have subsystems. In TIE Fighter you could destroy them without targeting them. Once you knew where everything was located, targeting was only really vital for locking missiles/torpedoes onto that subsystem. And to the person complaining about cycling past the subsystem, you could cycle backwards, too.
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Oct 23, 2013 15:51
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X-Wing didn't have subsystems except the shield generators on Star Destroyers, which you could destroy without targeting. I'm not sure you could even target them.
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Oct 23, 2013 15:59
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powderific posted:And, while there were a lot of annoying aspects to Nexus: The Jupiter Incident's gameplay, I really liked that EVERY capital ship had the same set of subsystems to you could take out. You didn't actually have to do so depending on your weapons, but I'd always have my small fast ships outfitted to take out shield and weapon subsystems and then let the big ships finish them off. The best part of this game was the fact that a couple of the endgame missiles going off could just about white out your screen even when you were zoomed all the way out. 
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Oct 23, 2013 17:27
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powderific posted:I'm not strategy game smart enough to know when AI is cheating, but I loved taking out subsystems in HW2. My most epic moment was sending a flight of bombers and intercepters way around the main battle to take out the enemy carrier manufacturing subsystems. It gave my capital ships a chance to take on their main fleet without threat of endless reinforcements. And, while there were a lot of annoying aspects to Nexus: The Jupiter Incident's gameplay, I really liked that EVERY capital ship had the same set of subsystems to you could take out. You didn't actually have to do so depending on your weapons, but I'd always have my small fast ships outfitted to take out shield and weapon subsystems and then let the big ships finish them off. You didn't need to be strategy game smart to see that Homeworld 2 was a big doodoohead cheater and also an idiot who shouldn't be allowed to play with us any more.
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Oct 23, 2013 17:41
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I think a toggle/overlay button that darkens the overall lightmap of the ship and then lights up subsections in big, obvious flat primary colors would be a neat way to do it. Red for guns, blue for engine, something like that. I don't know if the engine can do it, but it could... I don't know of any other game that's done it quite that way and it might be a neat graphical effect in line with the clean look the game's trying to achieve.
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Oct 23, 2013 17:56
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I don't think there should be targetable or highlighted subsystems at all. Just have destroyable objects like a tower for the ship's fire director - blow it up and the guns get less accurate. Destroyable turrets to pull out its fangs. Radar dishes and domes for sensors. Engines should be kinda obvious.
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Oct 23, 2013 18:14
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Xerxes17 posted:Will there be TrackIR support? This is something I was wondering about. I'm not a game developer, but I'd think with headtracking already implemented for the Rift, TrackIR wouldn't be a huge leap. It would also be a nice stopgap for those of us waiting on the commerical version of the Rift. Edit: I'm a big lazy idiot who can't read threads. TerminalSaint fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 17:09
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Xerxes17 posted:Will there be TrackIR support? Kairo posted:Unity has some 3rd party TrackIR DLLs. If I can integrate those, I totally will (and test them out on my ancient TrackIR 3).
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Oct 24, 2013 17:47
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Bubbacub posted:I don't think there should be targetable or highlighted subsystems at all. Just have destroyable objects like a tower for the ship's fire director - blow it up and the guns get less accurate. Destroyable turrets to pull out its fangs. Radar dishes and domes for sensors. Engines should be kinda obvious. This is a great idea. But maybe you could have a few options with missile weapons? The ability to designate a missile target at the reticle would be pretty bangin' for fire-and-forget type missiles. Maybe certain missiles or upgrades or options would give a little zoom window for better aiming, or make the reticle 'snap to' vulnerable subsystems before firing. I am just 100% in dat real love for having to study enemy ship designs to know their weak points. Targetable subsystems present interesting overall-battle strategy decisions which I think is important for a game like this; but turning the tide of battle because you took the time to figure out which hull blister took the shields offline is basically the coolest thing I can think of.
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Oct 24, 2013 18:14
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Freespace 2's faffing about with targeting was/is definitely still my least favorite part about the game, and boy does it ever not let you get away with ignoring it (on some missions). I really like the highlight overlay idea if it's nice and obvious (big targets, color coded). Being able to study the enemy capship schematics in the loading screen would also help, just to get a rough idea. Unfortunately if you have homing missiles you'll still have to actually target the drat things, won't be able to just take a target of opportunity. I would really really really prefer if this can be handled without FS2's targeting piano by having everything be very context sensitive and "smart" even if it is sometimes wrong. For example, don't have a different key for "target subsystem closest to crosshair" and "target turret closest to crosshair" and "target enemy fighter closest to crosshair". Just "target thing I probably want to shoot closest to crosshairs". E.g. prioritize whichever one is actually shooting at me within a reasonable margin, or somesuch. Along similar lines, instead of different buttons for "target nearest enemy shooting me", "target nearest enemy", "target nearest enemy shooting my escort objective" "target nearest enemy shooting my wingman" just give me the same AI weighting the enemy uses and a single button to re-calculate that priority and target it. And maybe some mild bitching-betty warning for when my current target isn't the priority target. Again, sure there will be times when it's wrong, but you can usually figure it out: You can't protect your objective if you are about to die, but the objective is always more important then your wingman. There is no sense protecting either if they are about to die before you can get to them. It really should be reasonably obvious who you should be shooting next. That way I can concentrate on pew-pew instead of playing "GUESS THE TARGET BUTTON!". My ideal targeting UI would look like this: Button A to target most relevant thing near my crosshairs. Button B to target the priority thing I should be worrying about right now. Button C (optional) to pop up a categorized circular fan-out menu that I can control with my POV hat or somesuch where I can target fiddly specific targets like this particular escort objective or this particular wingman or this particular turret on this particular cruiser. But basically no "cycle next/prev" targets pretty please they are just the worst. I either need some target "RIGHT loving NOW" or if I have time to be fiddly save me setting up 63 targetting keys and just give me some visual menu instead. I never ever ever need a button to select the second closest enemy to my wingman's escort target's attacker's best friend on facebook or whatever.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:51
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Also, on the topic of joystick configs, another thing that drive me nuts in most sims is that contextual controls can't be set differently in different contexts. E.g. if the POV hat is used for POV and navigating menus, if I don't have a POV hat I should really be able to configure, say, the main joystick axis to just navigating menus without also making it the POV control, that would be grand. Also you know how throttle can be be either "increase/decrease" or set in absolute terms if you have a flightstick or other slider? Anything else that is "increase/decrease" should ideally have a configurable absolute control as well - e.g. shields, zoom level, etc.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:56
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Even if there's smart targeting going on, there still needs to be a cycle subsystem button for those cases where the smart targeting turns out to be dumb. Also is that awesome trailing circle leading pip that was shown off some time ago still in there? It looked great and solved the "look at UI not at cool ship" problem.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:10
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DatonKallandor posted:Even if there's smart targeting going on, there still needs to be a cycle subsystem button for those cases where the smart targeting turns out to be dumb. Can you cycle to the "right" target faster then just going through a menu though? Sure it obscures your vision, but if you can actually be paying attention in a dogfight while looking wtf you're cycling through, you're made of better stuff that I am. Also if it's something you see happening that deserves your attention, just point yourself at it and use the "target nearest crosshair" one.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:12
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Plenty of time to cycle subsystem targets while your heading towards something. Optimally the game would be smart enough to remember which subsystem you've targeted on any given target, so you can target a capship, target the subsystem you want, then engage in various dogfights on the way - and when you arrive and switch back to the capship you've still got the same subsystem targeted. Hell you could even let people pre-target subsystems on big targets during the pre-mission setup phase if they're ships that you know are in the battle.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:23
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Yes but again, if you are just cruising, you could probably go through a radial popup menu much faster. The point of a menu instead of cycles is: - less keys to bind - more efficient to navigate IMO cycles are just as distracting while being much more finicky and time consuming and take up your whole keyboard/joystick.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:25
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DatonKallandor posted:Also is that awesome trailing circle leading pip that was shown off some time ago still in there? It looked great and solved the "look at UI not at cool ship" problem.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:38
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Mr. Wynand posted:Also, on the topic of joystick configs, another thing that drive me nuts in most sims is that contextual controls can't be set differently in different contexts. E.g. if the POV hat is used for POV and navigating menus, if I don't have a POV hat I should really be able to configure, say, the main joystick axis to just navigating menus without also making it the POV control, that would be grand.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:50
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