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Zo posted:Why is everybody making GBS threads on young women
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Oct 23, 2013 04:03
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Zo posted:It seems like everyday my Japan google news feed has a story talking about Japan's low birth rate and how nobody wants to have sex and freaking out over it. Basically every industrialized nation has its non-immigrant population at below replacement rate fertility. If they did loosen immigration standards though, where would the immigrants come from? It sounds like Korea would be a big exporter and I know China is always looking to offload some people (although based on their gender ratios probably men mostly).
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Oct 23, 2013 04:10
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computer parts posted:Basically every industrialized nation has its non-immigrant population at below replacement rate fertility. "Below replacement rate" is now a uselessly vague statement, seeing as how replacement rate is 2.1, and we have a huge spread under that (taiwan apparently dipped to 0.9 at one point). Immigrants would come from all over, with lots from china and SEA, I imagine.
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Oct 23, 2013 04:22
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Zo posted:It seems like everyday my Japan google news feed has a story talking about Japan's low birth rate and how nobody wants to have sex and freaking out over it. What you're overlooking here is demographic momentum. South Korea is just as insular as Japan, but because its decline in birth rate is more recent, the death rate hasn't 'caught up' to the birth rate yet. In the very near future it will be dealing with identical issues. By Western standards, East Asian countries are very hostile/unwelcoming to immigrants. dilbertschalter fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 05:16
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dilbertschalter posted:What you're overlooking here is demographic momentum. South Korea is just as insular as Japan, but because its decline in birth rate is more recent, the death rate hasn't 'caught up' to the birth rate yet. In the very near future it will be dealing with identical issues. By Western standards East Asian countries East Asian countries are very hostile/unwelcoming to immigrants. This makes a lot of sense. Looks like the Japanese are dying off about 50% faster. I guess in the medium term they're both hosed with shittu immigration policies.
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Oct 23, 2013 05:30
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I thought carefully and looked around for a few minutes to try to figure out what the Japanese term 'shittu' meant  They could always just do what Hong Kong does for domestic workers and have special work arrangements for cheap foreigners in specific sectors. Don't they already have that for nursing staff?
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Oct 23, 2013 05:58
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Too complicated for people and not overly worthwhile for the people coming from Indonesia and the Philipines.
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Oct 23, 2013 06:25
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Bloodnose posted:I thought carefully and looked around for a few minutes to try to figure out what the Japanese term 'shittu' meant Those programs have been dysmal failures because the nurses have to pass the same tests, in Japanese, that Japanese nurses do.
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Oct 23, 2013 06:38
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LimburgLimbo posted:Those programs have been dysmal failures because the nurses have to pass the same tests, in Japanese, that Japanese nurses do. Just to add some flavor, there's signs up in waiting rooms at St. Luke's asking the olds not to shout at/hit their wives. You can imagine how pidgin Japanese would be received.
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Oct 23, 2013 06:46
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dilbertschalter posted:What you're overlooking here is demographic momentum. South Korea is just as insular as Japan, but because its decline in birth rate is more recent, the death rate hasn't 'caught up' to the birth rate yet. In the very near future it will be dealing with identical issues. By Western standards, East Asian countries are very hostile/unwelcoming to immigrants. South Korea is odd though. 38% of all South Korean marriages involve a foreigner. It's a creepy trend when you consider how much of that is from those mail-order bride services. But they've ameliorated their birth rate problems by bringing in enormous numbers of women from places like Vietnam.
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Oct 23, 2013 06:59
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Rosscifer posted:South Korea is odd though. 38% of all South Korean marriages involve a foreigner. It's a creepy trend when you consider how much of that is from those mail-order bride services. But they've ameliorated their birth rate problems by bringing in enormous numbers of women from places like Vietnam.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:01
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Rosscifer posted:South Korea is odd though. 38% of all South Korean marriages involve a foreigner. It's a creepy trend when you consider how much of that is from those mail-order bride services. But they've ameliorated their birth rate problems by bringing in enormous numbers of women from places like Vietnam. Where are you getting 38% from? Wikipedia says 9% in 2012, which is high but not "literally almost every other marriage" high.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:07
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Samurai Sanders posted:It's just foreign women who are getting brought in for marriage? So there are a bazillion local women who won't be able to find a man because they're married to a foreigner? They're all moving to Japan for some reason. 
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Oct 23, 2013 07:08
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Stringent posted:They're all moving to Japan for some reason.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:09
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Rosscifer posted:South Korea is odd though. 38% of all South Korean marriages involve a foreigner. It's a creepy trend when you consider how much of that is from those mail-order bride services. But they've ameliorated their birth rate problems by bringing in enormous numbers of women from places like Vietnam. But they haven't. South Korea's birth rate is lower than Japan's, by a non-trivial amount. The only reason its population is growing is that the fertility decline took longer to occur than it did in Japan.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:12
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Stringent posted:They're all moving to Japan for some reason. Really? I didn't think there was much opportunity for foreign women in Japan besides working in the sex trade and being murder victims who get classified as a "body dump".
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Oct 23, 2013 07:13
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pentyne posted:Really? I didn't think there was much opportunity for foreign women in Japan besides working in the sex trade and being murder victims who get classified as a "body dump". The ones I've met were all planning to move back after a few years working/perfecting the language.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:16
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If they want more children born, they need young adults that are not hosed by the economy. They need people with secure and well-paying jobs. One job either needs to pay so much that it's enough for a family (yeah, right) or having kids and a career should be way easier than it is now. Or they could do something like the US and many other countries and have a huge part of the population live in soulcrushing poverty.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:28
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Or they could do something like the US and many other countries and have a huge part of the population live in soulcrushing poverty. I'm afraid that's what would happen if they opened up immigration.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:33
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pentyne posted:Really? I didn't think there was much opportunity for foreign women in Japan besides working in the sex trade and being murder victims who get classified as a "body dump". Hey, I'm doing alright outside of either of those, as long as I stay un-murdered.  There is plenty of opportunity but my biggest hurdle was just getting a visa in the first place that wasn't for English teaching.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:36
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Stringent posted:I'm afraid that's what would happen if they opened up immigration.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:37
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:If they want more children born, they need young adults that are not hosed by the economy. They need people with secure and well-paying jobs. One job either needs to pay so much that it's enough for a family (yeah, right) or having kids and a career should be way easier than it is now. Saying that people getting paid more will increase the birth rate is a case classic case of "this thing I say should happen will make Other Thing happen," even when there's no good evidence for that at all. As for immigration, the immigrants will be poor relative to other natives, but on the whole very successful by the standards of their home country.
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Oct 23, 2013 07:38
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Well, the financial and economical situation of people is the main influencing factor, since after a few years immigrants pretty much have the same birth rate as the people of the country they are living in. There are two regimes where people get more kids. They are either poor or well-off. Inbetween is a range where people are not poor, but have to work hard to prevent becoming poor. Those people get fewer kids. Politics should take this into account. German conservatives for example are doing it wrong, because they want German work to be cheap and at the same time they want woman to stay at home and fight against places where kids stay while their parents are working. And then they are wondering why people don't have kids. In France on the other hand having kids and a career is significantly easier and there the birthrate is better as a result. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 07:50
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:
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Oct 23, 2013 08:48
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They have done this now. Way too late and only because there is a societal consensus on it. We'll have to wait for the results of this policy, but it will probably work to some degree. And more money actually means more children, if one partner can stay at home and personal can be hired to raise the kids. But yes, this obviously won't work for a majority of the population. You can't make everyone a 1%er. Making everyone poor and miserable isn't desirable either. So it needs to be easier to work and have kids at the same time. And the jobs need to be secure. If you can't even be sure to still work at the same company and the same place for the next couple of years, kids become very unattractive. The whole song and dance about good employees having to be flexible and bending over for the company in various other ways has to stop Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Oct 23, 2013 |
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Oct 23, 2013 09:10
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Samurai Sanders posted:Well, if we're talking about nursing and other jobs involving taking care of the half of their population or whatever that will be elderly soon, there's plenty of work to go around. But not necessarily people who want to do it. Obviously if they are looking at Indonesian candidates, local women are too busy pursuing full time pastry making, voice actressy or housewifery to give a poo poo.
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Oct 23, 2013 11:15
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:
That is the core issue. Having a well-paying job means nothing if the company doesn't exist anymore after a year. Germans are pretty risk averse, not least because our great- and great-grandparents lost everything twice, and they raised their children based on that perception. It would be interesting to know if WWII had a similar effect on the Japanese society, or if keeping the status quo has been a long standing tradition there (the Meji restauration says no).
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Oct 23, 2013 14:09
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ArchangeI posted:That is the core issue. Having a well-paying job means nothing if the company doesn't exist anymore after a year. Germans are pretty risk averse, not least because our great- and great-grandparents lost everything twice, and they raised their children based on that perception. It would be interesting to know if WWII had a similar effect on the Japanese society, or if keeping the status quo has been a long standing tradition there (the Meji restauration says no). Say what you will about its effect on birth rates, but the restauration brought new dining options to Japan and that's an undeniable good.
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Oct 23, 2013 14:36
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Sweden had similar fertility issues in the past and they solved it with a lot socialist policies that worked real well. I googled and found this paper which details the policies that Sweden implemented. Japan has basically implemented most of them and may even do more than Sweden did, on paper. But the glaring issue that they haven't fixed, and which is simply beating the dead horse in this thread, is the rights of women when it comes to employment. To quote: quote:The Swedish system has a clear child-oriented perspective. It is child-friendly by being woman-friendly. It emphasizes the “equal right of working women to also have children” instead of “the right of mothers to have employment”(a formulation due to Alva Myrdal). There is nothing about the system that works toward enabling mothers to stay home and take care of their children; quite on the contrary, the whole system encourages women to get a job and keep it (“arbetslinjen”). Maybe one day, Japan.
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Oct 23, 2013 16:17
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ArchangeI posted:That is the core issue. Having a well-paying job means nothing if the company doesn't exist anymore after a year. Germans are pretty risk averse, not least because our great- and great-grandparents lost everything twice, and they raised their children based on that perception. It would be interesting to know if WWII had a similar effect on the Japanese society, or if keeping the status quo has been a long standing tradition there (the Meji restauration says no).
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Oct 23, 2013 17:26
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Kenishi posted:Maybe one day, Japan. They need to outlaw mansplaining for starters.
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Oct 23, 2013 23:18
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The real mindfuck for me is that as antediluvian as Japan's policies towards women seem, they're still (on paper) better than that of the US. Japan actually has paternity leave too, although the co-workers I've asked have said they've never heard of anyone using it.
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Oct 23, 2013 23:48
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Samurai Sanders posted:It's just foreign women who are getting brought in for marriage? So there are a bazillion local women who won't be able to find a man because they're married to a foreigner? South Korean men have a loving awful reputation (deserved, imo). If there's a trend of Korean women going out and marrying foreigners it would not surprise me in the least. I'm half-Korean and I've lived in Seoul with the Korean side of the family for about half my life, and from what I've seen, the women are some of the hardest working people you will ever meet anywhere on Earth and the men are shocking, abusive dirtbags.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:09
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Mr. Pumroy posted:South Korean men have a loving awful reputation (deserved, imo). If there's a trend of Korean women going out and marrying foreigners it would not surprise me in the least. I'm half-Korean and I've lived in Seoul with the Korean side of the family for about half my life, and from what I've seen, the women are some of the hardest working people you will ever meet anywhere on Earth and the men are shocking, abusive dirtbags. That's largely been my experience, I've lived here almost three years and have very rarely met a Korean man who was worth being friends with, most ended up being giant assholes to women so I couldn't deal with it. That in mind, the two Japanese girls I know here are both dating Korean men and so happy about how much better Korean men treat them than what they were used to in Japan. All the Korean women I know who have dated westerners have said they'd never date a Korean again, they couldn't go back to being treated like that. Anyway, anecdotes and all but I've yet to encounter anything that really defies the reputation. I do know a couple Korean guys who are normal, decent people, it's not like it doesn't exist of course, but the culture just encourages guys to be massive dickbags and surprise surprise, it works.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:35
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Pompous Rhombus posted:The real mindfuck for me is that as antediluvian as Japan's policies towards women seem, they're still (on paper) better than that of the US. Japan has a lot of really nice things on paper that are never actually implemented properly or enforced. The Japanese political system is a lot better than the US system at paying lip service in order to say, "See! We did what you said. Now please stop complaining. Why are you still complaining? You're just a troublemaker." On paper Japan has pretty decent labor laws. These are never enforced. The fact that men do not take paternity leave is not an accident. It's made very clear to men that by taking paternity leave they will be cratering their career advancement by doing so because they will be seen as not being dedicated enough to their employer.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:47
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ErIog posted:On paper Japan has pretty decent labor laws. These are never enforced. The fact that men do not take paternity leave is not an accident. It's made very clear to men that by taking paternity leave they will be cratering their career advancement by doing so because they will be seen as not being dedicated enough to their employer. Thing of it is though, it doesn't. Dudes are just too chickenshit to try.
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Oct 24, 2013 01:57
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ErIog posted:Japan has a lot of really nice things on paper that are never actually implemented properly or enforced. The Japanese political system is a lot better than the US system at paying lip service in order to say, "See! We did what you said. Now please stop complaining. Why are you still complaining? You're just a troublemaker." Speaking of... Japan is going to join the Hague Convention on the you-literally-can't-make-this-poo poo-up date of April 1st, 2015. Lucky for us though, they're keeping with tradition and slamming it chock full of loopholes and easy ways to wiggle out of actually having to comply. From what I've heard it's just lip service to get the West to quit pointing fingers at Japan (ooh, gaiatsu!) so they can continue to provide a safe harbor for Japanese citizens who want to just run off with their kids without going through local courts or established protocol first. Sheep fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Oct 24, 2013 |
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Oct 24, 2013 03:43
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Sheep posted:Speaking of... Japan is going to join the Hague Convention complete with a you-literally-can't-make-this-poo poo-up date that they chose for it to go into effect, April 1st. Oh, the date that everything new starts here? Wowzers.
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Oct 24, 2013 03:45
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Japan has participated in plenty of international treaties with start dates other than April 1st. I found five in just the first two pages of results.
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Oct 24, 2013 04:07
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Stringent posted:Thing of it is though, it doesn't. Dudes are just too chickenshit to try. I think it probably would, at least if you weren't willing to further take advantage of anti-discrimination laws (and even then it's a toss-up, because you'd have to prove it was related to taking the paternity leave and not anything else the employer could choose to make up to cover their own asses). You'd be totally in the right as far as the letter of the law, but nevertheless probably be signing on for a lifetime (assuming lifetime employment, heh) of uphill legal battles and making yourself the office gadfly. Not that I don't think Japan needs more people to do that, but it's a big ask of someone. Only reason I felt OK taking my employer to the mat over some discriminatory stuff was that my situation here is temporary so I really had nothing to lose, I can sympathize with why Japanese people wouldn't, even if it's "the right thing to do" and would make Japan a much better place in the long run. In all honesty I think Japan's toxic culture of masculinity (they're certainly not the only country with one!) plays more of a role in men not taking paternity leave more than the direct career implications.
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Oct 24, 2013 07:23
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