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It doesn't mean you have to do it now.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:16
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Yolocaust Denier posted:Sorry, if DS9 didnt have other good characters and actors then DS9 would be talked about like Voyager. Avery Brooks is a fine actor but his constant shouty/quiet voice drove me nuts. Most of the time he seemed to be channelling Jack Palance out of Batman. RIP Jack, your finding peoples lucky decks in heaven He overacted less than Shatner and some of the best episodes revolved around him.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:17
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Vagabundo posted:It doesn't mean you have to do it now. It makes each DS9 episode all the sweeter when it comes after a Chakote or Kim centric Voyager episode... except Melora. You can gently caress right off Melora.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:21
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I'm kind of glad I never watched Star Trek as a kid in the 90s now. I can't imagine getting tricked into watching voyager, then slowly realizing as the years went on, and I grew more mature and wiser, that the show was never going to get good.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:24
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Commissar Ken posted:It makes each DS9 episode all the sweeter when it comes after a Chakote or Kim centric Voyager episode... except Melora. You can gently caress right off Melora. Melora, the character, makes me think of this scene in Life's Too Short. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OJiB2BGaoc
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Oct 25, 2013 00:28
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Sash! posted:The Federation is an authoritarian military dictatorship anyhow. Section 31 is annoying because it's the most obvious outgrowth of a group of galactic utopian socialists 
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Oct 25, 2013 00:33
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Sash! posted:The Federation is an authoritarian military dictatorship anyhow. It's Come across a desert planet with a morally ambiguous insurgency? Just fly away to the next world.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:40
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Section 31 is annoying because it's the most obvious outgrowth of a group of galactic utopian socialists A second foundation if you will.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:53
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McDowell posted:It's This is flat-out stated in TUC. "If only you could hear yourselves speak. Inalienable? Human rights? The very name is racist."
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Oct 25, 2013 00:57
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Gau posted:This is flat-out stated in TUC.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:00
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Nessus posted:The ultimate smug one-upmanship would be if there was a Section 32 whose entire purpose was to ride herd on the psychological trap that was Section 31 - a unit whose primary purpose was to absorb people who would otherwise start new Eugenics Wars or their equivalents, with a mere secondary value of having them together in one place already if, God forbid, some kind of Outside Context Problem (like the Dominion!) shows up. Didn't this end up happening when Bashir's little Augmented friends from the Institute got together and started charting the future path of the Alpha Quadrant? Like, they pretty much invented psychohistory on the spot!
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Oct 25, 2013 01:27
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Nessus posted:The ultimate smug one-upmanship would be if there was a Section 32 whose entire purpose was to ride herd on the psychological trap that was Section 31 - a unit whose primary purpose was to absorb people who would otherwise start new Eugenics Wars or their equivalents, with a mere secondary value of having them together in one place already if, God forbid, some kind of Outside Context Problem (like the Dominion!) shows up. Some kind of... corps of people that would otherwise be rejected from society. But what if while solving this Outside Context Problem they get the idea that they, themselves, should rule? Just look at Bashir's Augment friends.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:29
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Luigi Thirty posted:Some kind of... corps of people that would otherwise be rejected from society. But what if while solving this Outside Context Problem they get the idea that they, themselves, should rule?
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Oct 25, 2013 01:35
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I love DS9 man, but the episodes with Bashir's brain-damaged augment friends are some of the only episodes of the show I truly hated. That, and I made a very poor decision to watch "Profit and Lace" while eating kraft velveeta mac and cheese. Needless to say I lost my appetite and started feeling very, very ill. I almost barfed and had to give the rest to the dog. Call me a space racist man, whatever, but Ferengi can be really loving gross sometimes.
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Oct 25, 2013 01:43
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Bicyclops posted:Hello thread. I started watching Star Trek after having never seen a single episode my whole life about a year ago because, no joke, I was interacting with Leonard Nimoy and that seemed like the final sign that I should stop being in a cultural black hole about this thing. So here are my Star Trek opinions, I hope that you enjoy: This is good and you should feel good.
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Oct 25, 2013 02:33
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Gammatron 64 posted:I love DS9 man, but the episodes with Bashir's brain-damaged augment friends are some of the only episodes of the show I truly hated. Really? I thought they were very enjoyable episodes. The part where they were all singing some improvised counterpoint melody on the spot was really sweet. And they're all so quirky! 
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Oct 25, 2013 02:36
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Gammatron 64 posted:
I have some problems with Ferengi because early on they are uncomfortably reminiscent of some racist Jewish caricatures. I really don't think it's intentional. It probably slipped in unconsciously from the early pulp sci-fi that the writers were obviously so in love with, plus once they get to Quark, they try to turn it around into a joke about unbridled capitalism. Either way, Armin Shimmerman deserves props for acting around those prosthetic teeth.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:20
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One really good TOS episode I saw recently was Mirror, Mirror. The evil parallel universe stuff was neat, but the highlight for me was how Kirk immediately caught on and played along in the new universe. He didn't act all dopey and confused and get outed instantly, but played it cool and more or less tricked everyone. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in most series - the hero and their team blunder into a weird situation or something and go "Durrr things are different, why is that, suspicious native?" and get instantly captured, then the episode is about escaping their prison. It was just so refreshing, almost subversive to see Kirk act with quick-witted analysis of the scene, play along with it and spend almost the whole episode in command while discovering factoids and setting his own schemes in motion.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:24
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Sisko does the same thing. Mirror O'Brien just has to say "our Sisko is dead, play along" and he's like "okay, Smiley!"
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Oct 25, 2013 03:29
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Bicyclops posted:I have some problems with Ferengi because early on they are uncomfortably reminiscent of some racist Jewish caricatures. I really don't think it's intentional. It probably slipped in unconsciously from the early pulp sci-fi that the writers were obviously so in love with, plus once they get to Quark, they try to turn it around into a joke about unbridled capitalism. Yeah, during my first DS9 watchthrough I ended up deciding to skip all the Ferengi-centric episodes for that exact reason. They got a lot more tolerable later on in DS9 and (thanks to this thread) I realized I missed some pretty awesome gems, like the one where Rom starts a labor union or the one where Quark, Nog, and Rom end up traveling back in time to Area 51.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:30
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DrSunshine posted:Really? I thought they were very enjoyable episodes. The part where they were all singing some improvised counterpoint melody on the spot was really sweet. And they're all so quirky! I dunno. I thought they were really annoying, and the plot to the one where they decide they know the outcome of the war and that they should surrender to the Dominion was really dumb in my book. The best one with the weirdo genetic augments was when Bashir fixed that girl's brain and they fell in love, but still I'm not really in love with that episode. Maybe I'm just a grumpy fun-hater, I dunno. I don't think so though, as I love TOS and some other goofy episodes. I think it must be because those episodes feel so incredibly out of place in DS9. Even silly Ferengi episodes still feel like they're part of the same show. Bicyclops posted:I have some problems with Ferengi because early on they are uncomfortably reminiscent of some racist Jewish caricatures. I really don't think it's intentional. It probably slipped in unconsciously from the early pulp sci-fi that the writers were obviously so in love with, plus once they get to Quark, they try to turn it around into a joke about unbridled capitalism. It doesn't help that almost all (if not all) of the people who played the Ferengi were Jewish. From the start, the Ferengi were meant to be a parody of Laissez-faire capitalism and while I don't think any anti-antisemitism was intentional, hoo boy it really, really looks like it, even if it's accidental.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:34
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I like that second augments episode because post-surgery autistic girl decides that Bashir is too clingy and wants to get the gently caress away from DS9  Julian Bashir - King of the Spergs
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Oct 25, 2013 03:37
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Luigi Thirty posted:Sisko does the same thing. Mirror O'Brien just has to say "our Sisko is dead, play along" and he's like "okay, Smiley!"
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Oct 25, 2013 03:37
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DirtyRobot posted:This is because the mirror universe is actually the one place where This is what you really meant, right? I mean, you've seen that same clip from The Captains as I have, haven't you? He is the best kind of nuts.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:41
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Guy Montag posted:This is what you really meant, right? I mean, you've seen that same clip from The Captains as I have, haven't you? Being 100% serious I think Avery Brooks is a very good actor for portraying Sisko with that sense of restrained anger/crazy, that is, playing a "normal" person but somehow suggesting all that other stuff going on beneath the surface. And IRL I bet Brooks is actually a chill dude, with that clip your referring to being an example of some pretty excellent trolling and Brooks having a great time.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:44
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Brooks taught at Rutgers, I find it hard to believe that he is legit off the rails. Especially considering how full of himself Shatner is, Brooks' act in that movie was probably 100% troll.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:46
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I saw a little clip from Enterprise where the good Captain explains to a Ferengi that unbridled capitalism almost destroyed the Earth a few times, and the Ferengi just gave a  and chastised him with "You should have managed your businesses better."A commenter below actually raised a good point: the Ferengi aren't actually about unbridled capitalism. They have very strong cultural and legal restrictions on just what they could or should do, such as the Laws of Acquisition. As the end result of free capitalism is the destruction of the free market, Ferengi enterprise is guided and limited by myriad factors that ensures an open and competitive free market, even if they always go on about accumulating wealth and assets like a bad parody of Wall Street. If the Federation is a post-scarcity communistic utopia, the Ferengi Alliance is a kind of post-capitalist plutarchy, with such immense inertia behind the regulations and rules that the free market is forever protected from capitalist depredation. I imagine the Ferengi themselves don't realise this. Skellybones fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 03:49
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DirtyRobot posted:Being 100% serious I think Avery Brooks is a very good actor for portraying Sisko with that sense of restrained anger/crazy, that is, playing a "normal" person but somehow suggesting all that other stuff going on beneath the surface. And IRL I bet Brooks is actually a chill dude, with that clip your referring to being an example of some pretty excellent trolling and Brooks having a great time. I was being facetious, the only crazy thing about him is how charismatic he is on the show and in real life. He seems quite chill but very confident and opinionated, with a lot of passion to back it up. I have mad respect for his pushing the writers into making him a better father figure, and not ignoring race as an issue on the show. Brooks is ballsy.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:57
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Well Manicured Man posted:Yeah, during my first DS9 watchthrough I ended up deciding to skip all the Ferengi-centric episodes for that exact reason. They got a lot more tolerable later on in DS9 and (thanks to this thread) I realized I missed some pretty awesome gems, like the one where Rom starts a labor union or the one where Quark, Nog, and Rom end up traveling back in time to Area 51. Yeah, Quark starts off insufferable but kind of grows on you once you realize that his writers and actor were stuck with a ridiculous concept and managed to turn around as best they could for comic relief. His little monologue about root beer is sort of the official beginning of trying to get the audience to have a love/hate relationship with the Federation and simultaneously is a commentary about Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek. It's oversweet and bubbly but once you drink enough of it, you start to enjoy it for some reason. It's like hearing someone describe your own feelings about The Next Generation. They do seem to try to shoehorn him into B plots when he'd be better left as a peripheral heckler, but seriouly, it's hard to hate on someone who put those frigging teeth in his mouth every day and managed to not only be mostly coherent but portray a character.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:19
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Quark is in so many good episodes I don't know that I'd skip any. The Ascent, the 2 Grilka episodes, the one where he has to disarm an unexploded torpedo on the Defiant, and pretty much any episodes where he's butting heads with Rom are all awesome. I feel there's a lot of dislike for the Ferengi episodes because goons are afraid they'll watch the crossdressing one and get a boner.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:25
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There's very few episodes of DS9 I skip. Profit and Lace is, actually, not one of them. The Muse 
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Oct 25, 2013 04:29
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1st AD posted:the 2 Grilka episodes I like when Gowron gets SUPER ANGRY and even more bug eyed at the idea that someone would try to take down a great house with MONEY!!!!! Even though Grilka seems to be mainly pissed that whatshisface is trying to harm her family's finances.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:37
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:There's very few episodes of DS9 I skip. Profit and Lace is, actually, not one of them. Ugh, I loving loathe "The Muse." It's a Jake episode with a bad plot and a Lwaxana/Odo B-plot that is somehow better than the A-plot, but not by much. I was thinking, and one of the reasons that DS9 is great is that it's a Western in Space - but not in an obvious, obtuse way like Firefly. Colonel Sisko, who fought in the Last War and has come out West to be the Mayor of this frontier fort of misfits. There's a Sheriff, a Doctor, a Native, an amiable tinker, a local barkeep, and a colorful background cast. A great number of the plots in DS9 are, in fact, Western plots, or are reflected from a Western film perspective. "Emissary" An unhappy Colonel Sisko is assigned to Fort Bajor, which until recently was occupied by Spanish imperialists. When a local mine is discovered, Sisko must go on a vision quest to understand its importance as Kira rushes to claim the mine first, before the Spanish arrive.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:41
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Well considering that a significant number of TOS episodes were Westerns in space and were even shot on the same sets, you're not far off.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:43
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1st AD posted:Quark is in so many good episodes I don't know that I'd skip any. The Ascent, the 2 Grilka episodes, the one where he has to disarm an unexploded torpedo on the Defiant, and pretty much any episodes where he's butting heads with Rom are all awesome. The one where he has to disarm a torpedo is actually a decent example of where I feel like the tried to shoehorn a Quark B plot into a good episode, because I like the rest of what's going on (even the normally dreadful Dax/Bashir will they?/ won't-they?), but they devote juuuuuuust a little too much time to the Quark absurdity. And that tiny extra bit of time is the thin difference between a fun story and one that distracts you with irritating tropes and reminds you you're watching a television show, such that not even James Cromwell can save it.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:52
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1st AD posted:Well considering that a significant number of TOS episodes were Westerns in space and were even shot on the same sets, you're not far off. I remember This Side of Paradise and Spectre of the Gun - what else was shot on Western sets?
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Oct 25, 2013 05:13
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Maybe the little native village from The Paradise Syndrome?
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Oct 25, 2013 05:34
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Gau posted:"If only you could hear yourselves speak. Inalienable? Human rights? The very name is racist." Really? That line always makes my eyes roll. It's like every smug gotcha moment in every Trek courtroom episode.
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Oct 25, 2013 05:56
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The Dark One posted:Really? That line always makes my eyes roll. It's like every smug gotcha moment in every Trek courtroom episode. Except the entire scene builds to that moment, and it's not a gotcha at all, it's a legitimate critique of the Federation (especially as envisioned in TNG, which had been on for years at TUC's release).
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Oct 25, 2013 06:15
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The only real duff note that TUC hits is probably the slow clap at the end. I hate it hate it hate it. Love the rest of the film, though.
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Oct 25, 2013 06:23
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