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KingEup posted:Secession: computer parts posted:Fun fact: States that allowed medical marijuana pre Raich: Lets go ahead and take this succession thing to its logical conclusion. 
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Oct 8, 2013 02:33
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*Secession. And can we please not turn this thread into lovely WACKY MS PAINT political maps
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Oct 8, 2013 02:51
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Pryor on Fire posted:*Secession. And can we please not turn this thread into lovely WACKY MS PAINT political maps Chill out dude it was just a joke. Maybe try relaxing with some fun safe marijuana?
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Oct 8, 2013 05:03
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You aren't a liberal if you are against abortion, guns, or marijuana. The democrats certainly aren't liberal.
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Oct 9, 2013 00:08
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Powercrazy posted:You aren't a liberal if you are against abortion, guns, or marijuana. The democrats certainly aren't liberal.
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Oct 9, 2013 00:15
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Even arch-conservatives are voicing their support for taxation and legalization. National Journal ran an article today about Grover Norquist's position on it. He enthusiastically supported it, explaining that it wasn't really a tax increase:Grover posted:"When you legalize something and more people do more of it and the government gets more revenue because there's more of it ... that's not a tax increase," he explains. "The tax goes from 100 percent, meaning its illegal, to whatever the tax is." But really who cares, aside from the fact that his support means that GOP legislators are now in the clear.
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Oct 24, 2013 23:35
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Broken Machine posted:Even arch-conservatives are voicing their support for taxation and legalization. National Journal ran an article today about Grover Norquist's position on it. He enthusiastically supported it, explaining that it wasn't really a tax increase:
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Oct 24, 2013 23:45
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According to the most recent Gallup poll on the subject, 58% of Americans now support legalization. The only demographic groups opposed to legalization are Republicans with 35% support and seniors aged 65+ with 45% support. If the Republicans can be brought around then all of the upcoming state votes to legalize should succeed.
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Oct 25, 2013 14:44
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Spoondick posted:If the Republicans can be brought around
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Oct 25, 2013 14:52
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TenementFunster posted:RIP forever, red state legalization. gently caress me why do I live in the Midwest well I guess jail will be nice.
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Oct 25, 2013 16:26
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Which states are on track to vote on this in 2014?
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Oct 25, 2013 16:38
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bawfuls posted:Hahaha, all of the comments on that page are calling Norquist a RINO/progressive/traitor to the cause. And people say that the left is too concerned with purity. Also the 58% poll makes me really optimistic, by 2016 we could be looking at over 65%, its going to happen people, get ready for legal weed.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:03
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Xeom posted:And people say that the left is too concerned with purity. Keep in mind that over two-thirds of Americans also support medicare-for-all universal health care.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Keep in mind that over two-thirds of Americans also support medicare-for-all universal health care. Do they? Because of the issues that democrats run on, other than recently with obamacare which isn't quite there yet, I don't see a lot of messaging for it and if that 2/3rds number is correct, it seems that any candidate that wanted to be elected would just have to voice his support for universal healthcare.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:30
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superjew posted:Which states are on track to vote on this in 2014? Maine will vote to legalize in 2016. I wish it was 2014, but the sponsors want to align it with the Presidential election.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:31
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Powercrazy posted:Do they? Because of the issues that democrats run on, other than recently with obamacare which isn't quite there yet, I don't see a lot of messaging for it and if that 2/3rds number is correct, it seems that any candidate that wanted to be elected would just have to voice his support for universal healthcare. It's a notoriously tricky issue to message/poll. If you ask people whether they want nationalized or government-managed health care it polls around the 45-50% issue area. If you ask whether they think Medicare should be expanded to cover everyone then people love it. It's the old "keep the government out of my Medicare!" problem. There's plenty of people running on "universal health care" but there's significant entrenched interests that oppose single payer or public options. One person who ran on universal health care with a public option is rather famous, you might know him as the President of the United States. He also exemplifies the problems in implementing this, as within a month after he was elected, before he'd even taken office, he'd already made deals with insurance companies to get a bill through, as long as it didn't include the public option.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Keep in mind that over two-thirds of Americans also support medicare-for-all universal health care. Well UHC is obviously the right thing to do but it's not in the interests of big corporations, and that's a big factor in whether or not a certain political goal will ultimately be successful. Pot on the other hand has the potential to be a huge and profitable market, hopefully once the legal market gets up and running in CO and WA more people will realize this and advocate for further legalization.
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Oct 25, 2013 17:59
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Once Colorado and Washington's store are open for business, and that sweet tax money starts rolling in, a lot of people of every stripe or going to have their eyes opened to the positive potential for legal weed. Especially a large number of people that tend to think of taxation as a form of communism- like Grover Norquist. The huge monied interests that oppose UHC have way more money, and stand way more to lose than the forces that oppose legal weed. Insurance companies are major players in financial markets, and can bring huge amounts of force to bear in American politics, like in the previously mentioned deal Obama made. Don't forget, UHC would almost literally put most insurance companies out of business overnight. The only industry that opposes any changes to the War On Drugs that has anywhere near the same level of power would be the pharmaceutical industry, and it would only be a minor cut in profits for them. Even the PIC is still only comprised of second string players(for the time being). The rest of the organized opposition comes in the way of Police and Prison Guard Unions, who, like the current iteration of the PIC, only really have influence at the State and Local level. Granted, the cops aren't willingly going to give up their free, confiscated TVs without a fight. I know that booze merchants like Anheuser–Busch obviously oppose legalization, but I personally haven't seen any evidence of them throwing big money around to stop it. Anyone? Brave New World fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 18:40
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superjew posted:Which states are on track to vote on this in 2014? Frankly every state Democrats control should be thinking about having a referendum for the sole fact of what better way to drive out D leaning young voters.
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Oct 25, 2013 18:54
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National prohibition of alcohol ended in 1933. But Mississippi for example didn't start allowing even weak beer again until 1945, and didn't have full on alcohol availability allowed state-wide until 1966 - and even that still involves nearly half the state's counties and towns being officially "dry". Kansas and Oklahoma had similar stories to them, with Kanasas doing it by 1948 and Oklahoma by 1959. Incidentally all of these had enacted prohibition on their own between 13 and 40 years ahead of national prohibition. Kansas was officially dry from 1880 to 1948, a whole 68 years! I don't see why people expect marijuana legalization to proceed differently in the deep red states.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:00
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Amused to Death posted:Frankly every state Democrats control should be thinking about having a referendum for the sole fact of what better way to drive out D leaning young voters. which is why Californians overwhelming voted in favor of retail weed sales and gay marriage
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Oct 25, 2013 19:05
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Install Windows posted:I don't see why people expect marijuana legalization to proceed differently in the deep red states. Financial pressure from the macroeconomic realities of the twenty first century.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:06
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a lovely poster posted:Financial pressure from the macroeconomic realities of the twenty first century. So in other words, ignorance. Or do you really think that the alcohol industry wasn't a big deal?  Maybe you haven't heard of Mississippi et al before, but they're real big fans of not listening to "macroeconomic realities" that they think make Jesus cry or whatever excuse they've come up with now to justify ongoing regressive cultural policy. These are states that still have substantial parts of their territory with alcohol sales blocked, even though there would obviously be money going into the local town and county economies instead of being sent over to the nearest wet county.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:14
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Well, not all deep red states have the same motivations. I wouldn't be surprised to see Louisiana as the first state in the Deep South with legal pot because a big chunk of how that state operates is "have looser laws than our neighbors to drag in their money." Just like Shreveport's casinos regularly draw out huge crowds from East Texas, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shreveport having pot bars that drag in huge numbers of people from East Texas.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:18
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a lovely poster posted:Financial pressure from the macroeconomic realities of the twenty first century. spoiler alert: they're agin 'em
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Oct 25, 2013 19:19
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Patter Song posted:Well, not all deep red states have the same motivations. I wouldn't be surprised to see Louisiana as the first state in the Deep South with legal pot because a big chunk of how that state operates is "have looser laws than our neighbors to drag in their money." Just like Shreveport's casinos regularly draw out huge crowds from East Texas, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shreveport having pot bars that drag in huge numbers of people from East Texas. Well Louisiana never implemented Prohibition until the national enforcement, and immediately lifted it as soon as the repeal amendment passed. I bring up Oklahoma and Mississippi specifically because they both have maintained among the most conservative voting records and both were proactive in barring alcohol and keeping it barred as long as possible after other states gave it up.
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Oct 25, 2013 19:26
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Install Windows posted:Well Louisiana never implemented Prohibition until the national enforcement, and immediately lifted it as soon as the repeal amendment passed. I bring up Oklahoma and Mississippi specifically because they both have maintained among the most conservative voting records and both were proactive in barring alcohol and keeping it barred as long as possible after other states gave it up. Louisiana was also one of the last states to institute the 21 years age limit for drinking (which is partially why their roads are/were so bad).
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Oct 25, 2013 19:43
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Cannabis laws in Louisiana are bizarre. They currently have some of the harshest on the books, due in part to their history as a port for smuggling. If you're charged with simple possession of less than 60 pounds, they can give you a fine of up to $500 for the first offense, and / or up to six months in jail. For a second offense it goes up to a max of $2500 and five years, and third time it's $5000 and 20 years in jail. But they don't even have to fine you or give you any jail time. It's not even classed as a misdemeanor. So they can, at their discretion, arrest someone and give them 20 years in prison for getting busted three times with a roach, while at the same time letting someone walk away scot-free after getting busted with 50lbs. They also have one of the highest arrest rates for it, roughly fifth. They actually did pass a bill through their House earlier this year to reform their sentencing, but the Senate didn't bring it to the floor. I really don't know what they'll do going forward, but it's sure to be a crooked game with kickbacks whatever they do.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:36
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Install Windows posted:So in other words, ignorance. Or do you really think that the alcohol industry wasn't a big deal? I guess I just think that the macroeconomic picture will be putting a lot more pressure on them in 2020 than it was in 1945. Only time will tell. Ultimately, the dollar always beats morality in this country.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:42
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Patter Song posted:Well, not all deep red states have the same motivations. I wouldn't be surprised to see Louisiana as the first state in the Deep South with legal pot because a big chunk of how that state operates is "have looser laws than our neighbors to drag in their money." Just like Shreveport's casinos regularly draw out huge crowds from East Texas, I wouldn't be surprised to see Shreveport having pot bars that drag in huge numbers of people from East Texas. I would guess that deep red states where the local government has a large interest in keeping the laws on the books to maintain racial segregation would keep the laws longer than the western states without as much of a racial component to Prohibition.
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Oct 25, 2013 20:46
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a lovely poster posted:I guess I just think that the macroeconomic picture will be putting a lot more pressure on them in 2020 than it was in 1945. Only time will tell. Ultimately, the dollar always beats morality in this country. Why do you think this? The dollar still hasn't beaten morality for alcohol in most of Mississippi! It's been over 80 years since prohibition ended, you still can't buy alcohol in a very significant amount of that state, or in many towns and counties outside that one state. Like, if we use alcohol as the standard for this, significant parts of that state and others like it would still have weed illegal to sell and buy in the year 2093 if Obama legalized marijuana federally tomorrow morning.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:01
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Install Windows posted:Why do you think this? The dollar still hasn't beaten morality for alcohol in most of Mississippi! It's been over 80 years since prohibition ended, you still can't buy alcohol in a very significant amount of that state, or in many towns and counties outside that one state. Because the late 40s, 50s, and 60s were an unprecedented time of growth and success for the US, which allowed states to shirk some forms of revenue. Now, America is in decline, it's just a much different financial reality for most states as opposed to fifty years ago.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:06
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a lovely poster posted:Because the late 40s, 50s, and 60s were an unprecedented time of growth and success for the US, which allowed states to shirk some forms of revenue. Now, America is in decline, it's just a much different financial reality for most states as opposed to fifty years ago. We're talking Mississippi dude. That hasn't been any kind of boomtown state any time recently. These places continue to ban alcohol business as much as they legally can, because of moral reasons that aren't going away. They're sure as poo poo not going to suddenly decide weed is worth compromising their "morals" over. Seriously, you're just spouting bullshit here. States and local areas that kept overall prohibition going as long as possible, and continue local dry rules now tend far more to coincide with being conservative shitholes with poor economic performance then any kind of success. And of course no one was having great economic growth in the 30s and early 40s.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:16
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So what I'm taking away from this is that weed will soon be legal in the cool states that I actually want to visit (in fact it already is in two of the coolest states in the union); so really I should rejoice in having one more reason to never visit the south.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:28
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Install Windows posted:We're talking Mississippi dude. That hasn't been any kind of boomtown state any time recently. These places continue to ban alcohol business as much as they legally can, because of moral reasons that aren't going away. They're sure as poo poo not going to suddenly decide weed is worth compromising their "morals" over. What makes you think those moral reasons aren't going away? Mississippi of 1930 is much different than Mississippi in 2010. Have you ever been there? quote:Seriously, you're just spouting bullshit here. States and local areas that kept overall prohibition going as long as possible, and continue local dry rules now tend far more to coincide with being conservative shitholes with poor economic performance then any kind of success. And of course no one was having great economic growth in the 30s and early 40s. Yeah, I chose the decades I was talking about carefully. We're talking about predicting the future here, it's all "spouting bullshit".
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Oct 25, 2013 21:43
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"Dry" counties for marijuana wouldn't be a big deal at all if it was like alcohol and possession wasn't illegal.
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Oct 25, 2013 21:57
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a lovely poster posted:What makes you think those moral reasons aren't going away? Mississippi of 1930 is much different than Mississippi in 2010. Have you ever been there? Why do you think Mississippi continues to bar alcohol sales and purchases in most of the state, if not for moral reasons? Why do you think they were the last state to fully legalize the normal range of alcoholic products to be sold anywhere in their territory by nearly a decade, if not for moral reasons? Mississippi is a trashpile of a state that has been heavily hobbled by very conservative governance for a longass time. No, actually, you can look at current and past trends to make informed guesses as to what will happen. rscott posted:"Dry" counties for marijuana wouldn't be a big deal at all if it was like alcohol and possession wasn't illegal. If you have to travel hundreds of miles to legally get weed, do you not think black market marijuana dealers are going to be in the "leafless" counties? And do you think that those sellers and their buyers won't be breaking the law and getting hosed with if the cops want to? Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 22:05
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How is this discussion about dry counties in hick states germane to the big picture?
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Oct 25, 2013 22:08
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Install Windows posted:Why do you think Mississippi continues to bar alcohol sales and purchases in most of the state, if not for moral reasons? Why do you think they were the last state to fully legalize the normal range of alcoholic products to be sold anywhere in their territory by nearly a decade, if not for moral reasons? Mississippi is a trashpile of a state that has been heavily hobbled by very conservative governance for a longass time. Even if they are the most conservative state, they are still slowly liberalizing. It's not as if nothing has changed in 80 years. quote:No, actually, you can look at current and past trends to make informed guesses as to what will happen. Would it be fair to expect someone with such strong opinions about Mississippi to have ever been there in their life? How informed can your opinion really be? You're talking about a prediction that you won't even be alive to see, it's ridiculous.
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Oct 25, 2013 22:09
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a lovely poster posted:Even if they are the most conservative state, they are still slowly liberalizing. It's not as if nothing has changed in 80 years. And that's the point genius. SLOWLY. As in, will probably take decades to do things other places already do. As in, you'll probably not be able to buy or sell weed in most of the state, or even all of it, for quite a long time after its legal federally. Sane people don't give states credit for finally dragging themselves into the mid-20th century nearly 50 years after it ended. There is no reason to ever go there. The laws are plain on the books for all to see, and the history there. Sorry that I've only been to the states surrounding Mississippi and only passed through the tiny nub of MS on the way from nawlins to Florida, but you don't need to live there for 5 years to know it's poo poo and governed by a super corrupt conservative clique. Mississippi is essentially the poster child for conservative mismanagement of government and abuse of power. The state and most of the lower level governments actively seek to disenfranchise as many people as possible, stick to hardline conservative ideology, the whole nine yards. The people are fine in general, but the power structures put in a whole lot of effort to keep that from being reflected in the institutions! Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Oct 25, 2013 |
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Oct 25, 2013 22:15
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