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Oh great, a map throwing legitimate democratic parties, like the SVP, together with actual fascists, like Jobbik.
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Oct 27, 2013 13:23
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Scrree posted:The Swede/Swiss/UK parties wouldn't be out of place on a bag of baby diapers while Greece and Bulgaria are straight out of 1938. And Italy's the not-  party. ..who are also apparently northern secessionists.
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Oct 27, 2013 13:28
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Riso posted:Oh great, a map throwing legitimate democratic parties, like the SVP, together with actual fascists, like Jobbik.  "To create security"
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Oct 27, 2013 13:36
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Riso posted:Oh great, a map throwing legitimate democratic parties, like the SVP, together with actual fascists, like Jobbik. yep  that svp alright  totally legitimate  and doesn't deserve to be associated with fascist parties  sure thing guy
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Oct 27, 2013 13:38
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Things can change very quickly with these parties since they're usually dependent on a sense of populist momentum. I remember back in 2003 or something like that, Vlaams Belang had around 25% of the vote in Flanders. On that note, it's a bit misleading to say that VB only obtained 7% during the last elections. While technically correct as far as the federal parliament is concerned, the political spectrum is completely divided along linguistic lines to the extent that literally every party with seats in parliament is either exclusively French-speaking or exclusively Flemish. 
Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 13:39
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Reveilled posted:
They also led the infamous Swiss campaign against mosques and minarets. Still, they are nowhere near the caliber of their supposed Russian or Greek counterparts. The same goes for Poland and UK - wouldn't BNP be a more fitting choice?
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Oct 27, 2013 13:41
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Reveilled posted:
 "sorry my swarthy friend we're going to have to put you down so that my racist cousins back there can feel safe, no hard feelings".
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Oct 27, 2013 13:42
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steinrokkan posted:The same goes for Poland and UK - wouldn't BNP be a more fitting choice? The BNP is also there. I think El País was just trolling with their inclusion of UKIP. Nigel Farage is a boorish rear end in a top hat, but it's a bit ridiculous to put him on the same level as Golden Dawn.
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Oct 27, 2013 13:50
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steinrokkan posted:They also led the infamous Swiss campaign against mosques and minarets. Still, they are nowhere near the caliber of their supposed Russian or Greek counterparts. The same goes for Poland and UK - wouldn't BNP be a more fitting choice? The BNP are on there, but UKIP are not really any better, they're just the BNP for the middle class*. In any case it's not meant to be a map of fascists in Europe, it's a map showing countries with members of the far-right in their national or the european legislature. From those posters' overt racism the SVP certainly seem far-right, even if they don't literally form mobs that attack minorities. *Another way to put this is that UKIP are the party of "I'm not racist but..." while the BNP are the part of "I am a racist, and..." Reveilled fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 13:51
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Jerry Cotton posted:Would've been interesting to see how many are in cabinet. Let's see; I don't know too much about many of these, so this is mainly cursory web "research": - Denmark had a rightwing government in coalition with the far-right DF (which however had no cabinet members) until 2011, when they were replaced by a vaguely center-left grab-bag coalition. - Norway just recently got a new government of conservatives and FrP. - Sweden has a center-right government; the SD are not involved and never have been. - In Finland, the nationalist True Finns have come close to forming part of a cabinet (last in 2011) but haven't done so. - Russia, of course, is The Vladimir Putin Show. The LDPR is a bit of a force (though they tend to vote with the government) but the cabinet is all Putin's United Russia and a few nominal independents. - Poland is currently run by a center-right coalition, but the further-right PiS has headed the government before, in coalition with more marginal nationalists. - Hungary is a horror show right now, as you know. The party listed on the map (Jobbik) is in the opposition, however. - In Romania, the nationalist PRM is currently marginal but was rather relevant years ago, and briefly participated in goverment in the 90s. - In Bulgaria, ATAKA very briefly supported a center-right coalition (without anyone in cabinet) in 2009, but have otherwise been opposition only. - Greece: you've presumably read a lot about the neonazi Golden Dawn; no government for them, yet, and hopefully never. - Austria: the FPÖ formed a government with the center-right ÖVP from 2000-2002 and 02-06, but have been opposition since then. It's all been grand coalitions (SPÖ/ÖVP); there were parliamentary elections this year, but no new government yet. - Italy: the Lega Nord is not part of the currently governing coalition, but has been previously. - Switzerland: the Swiss system is kind of unusual, but the SVP (who are definitely a problem despite what Riso, our pet Germanophone Freeper, might say) do have a "cabinet member" in that one of the members of the Federal Council is from the SVP, and they are the largest single faction in the Federal Assembly. - France: the National Front is worryingly strong, but has not been in government. - Belgium: for all the difficulties Belgium has with the Flemish-Walloon split, Vlaams Blok/Belang has been successfully kept out of federal executive power so far despite how creepily many votes they get in Flanders. - Netherlands: the current cabinet is a VVD/Labour coalition; I think whoever made the map mixed up the VVD and Geert Wilders' much shittier PVV when picking the logo. The PVV briefly backed a minority cabinet (VVD and Christian Democrats) before, but has not been represented in cabinet. - UK: the UK system is not friendly to smaller parties, so nothing there. So, out of these (the map lists only parties with current MEPs and/or representatives in national parliaments), just Norway and Switzerland currently. Of course, parties not called Our Country's Worst Fascist Club aren't necessarily composed solely of wonderful people, and the parties listed here span a pretty big range of the far-right spectrum and certainly aren't all cartoon nazis like the Golden Dawn. For example, the SVP probably wouldn't be on that list if they hadn't relatively recently attracted scrutiny with the racist and Islamophobic poo poo seen above.
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Oct 27, 2013 13:54
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:- Denmark had a rightwing government in coalition with the far-right DF (which however had no cabinet members) until 2011, when they were replaced by a vaguely center-left grab-bag coalition. E: Which is to say, or next government will probably look pretty much like the Norwegian one. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 14:22 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 14:02
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Hamiltonian Bicycle posted:Let's see; I don't know too much about many of these, so this is mainly cursory web "research": Cool. Now make it into a map 
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Oct 27, 2013 14:14
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A giant map of Europe labeled "hosed up"
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Oct 27, 2013 14:39
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Given that Fidesz has implemented a whole bunch of Jobbik policies and is habitually flirting with neo-fascists, and Jobbik actually originated as an internal group within Fidesz, I would be inclined to classify the Hungarian government as far-right as well. But that would probably skew things.
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Oct 27, 2013 14:46
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Which policies have they implemented, specifically? I know Hungary has been getting negative press these last few years, but I never paid close attention up until now.
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Oct 27, 2013 14:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I want to mention here that this vaguely center-left grab-bag coalition has done more to harm anyone not rich since they got into power than the previous rightwing coalition. Our prime minister is basically just using her job as a stepping stone to get a nice spot in the IMF. What happened man? Scandinavia used to be cool
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Oct 27, 2013 18:25
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I think the world's trying to become as lovely as the U.S..
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Oct 27, 2013 20:33
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Farecoal posted:What happened man? Scandinavia used to be cool
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Oct 27, 2013 20:37
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Reveilled posted:
You could probably also translate it as "Security sheep" even though sheep in German is "Schafe"
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Oct 27, 2013 21:14
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Farecoal posted:What happened man? Scandinavia used to be cool We got rich and way too complacent.
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Oct 27, 2013 21:17
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Phlegmish posted:Which policies have they implemented, specifically? I know Hungary has been getting negative press these last few years, but I never paid close attention up until now. I can't find the article I was thinking of originally, which matched up Fidesz government policies to each promise in the Jobbik manifesto, but Der Spiegel gives a decent summary here as well: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ruling-hungarian-fidesz-party-adopts-policies-of-far-right-jobbik-party-a-880590.html quote:Indeed, Orbán and his ruling party are implementing a major part of Jobbik's right-wing extremist platform. While some policies are toned down, others are adopted unchanged. For example: Zohar fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 21:19
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Zohar posted:I can't find the article I was thinking of originally, which matched up Fidesz government policies to each promise in the Jobbik manifesto, but Der Spiegel gives a decent summary here as well: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ruling-hungarian-fidesz-party-adopts-policies-of-far-right-jobbik-party-a-880590.html Holy poo poo, that makes Greece look like a bastion of the left-wing.
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Oct 27, 2013 21:49
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Phlegmish posted:The BNP is also there. I think El País was just trolling with their inclusion of UKIP. Nigel Farage is a boorish rear end in a top hat, but it's a bit ridiculous to put him on the same level as Golden Dawn. UKIP are simply racists in pinstripes, though. So much so that the founder has disavowed them. Here's then-leader Lord Pearson of Rannoch, talking about the Muslim "menfolk" threatening their wives to vote Labour because of Sharia law. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT5qRqHHoJo This paper by Hope Not Hate is also a decent read.
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Oct 27, 2013 22:47
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Zohar posted:I can't find the article I was thinking of originally, which matched up Fidesz government policies to each promise in the Jobbik manifesto, but Der Spiegel gives a decent summary here as well: http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ruling-hungarian-fidesz-party-adopts-policies-of-far-right-jobbik-party-a-880590.html Don't forget that the government rewrote the constitution in such a way where the courts basically have no power anymore. Fidesz may not have originated as a far right party but there's not much doubt they are one now.
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Oct 27, 2013 22:49
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The room of it is in part of what happened to the former communist party, now the socialist party which across the post-break up period became aggressively neo-liberal. It is actually to the point that Hungarian polls regarding the days of communism are more similar to Russia and the rest of the CIS. In addition, add plenty of continued anger over revanchism and it is a pretty ready made recipe for the rise of the hard right. It has been building up for a while, and the results have been predictable for a while. I was there in the mid-2000s and even back then it was plainly evident something was going on and thats before the economy fell apart. I guess thats more a story for another thread though.
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Oct 27, 2013 23:20
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Ardennes posted:It has been building up for a while, and the results have been predictable for a while. I was there in the mid-2000s and even back then it was plainly evident something was going on and thats before the economy fell apart. I guess thats more a story for another thread though. That's a thread I'd like to read.
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Oct 27, 2013 23:24
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IF you euros go all facist and goose stepping we are going to have to go in again and fix you idiots up again.
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Oct 28, 2013 00:52
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Baloogan posted:IF you euros go all facist and goose stepping we are going to have to go in again and fix you idiots up again. With a cigar and a firm handshake.
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Oct 28, 2013 00:54
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Kavak posted:That's a thread I'd like to read. Well the fascism in Europe thread was on the front page for a while, but yeah Hungary has had its own "Weimar" syndrome for a while (technically it is the treaty of Trianon they are bitter over not Versailles). Ultimately it is entirely unfixable, Hungary is never going to get those Hungarians populations back and they will continue to be bitter about it. That said, Hungary didn't have a smooth transition from state socialism and honestly, Hungarians at least in relative terms were doing much better during the 1980s than the Romanians. So you have multiple levels of bitterness going on, Trianon, historical anti-Romaism and anti-semetism (as well their own variant of fascism) and the fact the transition to the free market was particularly rough for them compared to some of their neighbors (Slovakia/Poland...not Ukraine though). It isn't something that shows up well on a map though. The map is missing the Ukranian far right Svoboda party which just got 10% last election, and the independent Greeks probably should be counted as hard right as well, much of their platform is very much in line with the rest of them even if they are "moderate" compared to the Nazis.
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Oct 28, 2013 01:46
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One of the surprising things about Hungary as well is how quickly fascism ballooned there (and in fact this happened before the financial crisis). Go back 10 years and Jobbik didn't exist, the far right were virtually nowhere to be found and sentiments towards minorities were pretty decent and seemed to be improving. Then in 2006 came the 2006 protests and suddenly the far right burst into the mainstream, paramilitaries were being formed and things generally went to poo poo. The Overton window sped to the right and Orbán, who's now PM, went from being a fairly unremarkable European centre-right politician to a messianic ideologue flirting more or less openly with fascism. For content, a map of the Hungarian constituency results in 2006 (the elections were pre-riots)  (red - Socialists, orange - Fidesz, blue - Free Democrats) ... and the same in 2010:  I guess we should be glad Hungary doesn't have a pure FPTP system.
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Oct 28, 2013 02:05
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I understand the end of the Eastern Bloc and the recession leading to a growth of fascism, but how the hell are they still nurturing revanchism about territory they lost nearly a hundred years ago? Did it get renewed by what they took back and lost during WWII? I know there are still huge Hungarian communities in Slovakia, Romania, etc., but I don't think the majority of Germans still want Elsass-Lothringen or Eupen back. Also holy poo poo that second map. Did the EU make sure those elections were valid?
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Oct 28, 2013 02:17
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Kavak posted:I understand the end of the Eastern Bloc and the recession leading to a growth of fascism, but how the hell are they still nurturing revanchism about territory they lost nearly a hundred years ago? Did it get renewed by what they took back and lost during WWII? I know there are still huge Hungarian communities in Slovakia, Romania, etc., but I don't think the majority of Germans still want Elsass-Lothringen or Eupen back. That is the thing though, most Germans were forced to move into Germany (or Austria I guess?) and there isn't nearly the same proportion of Germans living in other neighboring states like Hungary has. It is always a nagging issue because they are still around and have little interest in fully assimilating. Btw, I do think if there were a bunch of Germans living across Poland, things would have turned out more...interesting. In 2004, I did sense there was still something in the air going on in Budapest, at least Fidesz was starting to get real fired up with youth outreach and the MSZP was mired in some scandals. It wasn't much compared to what was to come, but I think Orban had been playing the pieces a while. Things just got worse and worse.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:17
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Ardennes posted:That is the thing though, most Germans were forced to move into Germany (or Austria I guess?) and there isn't nearly the same proportion of Germans living in other neighboring states like Hungary has. It is always a nagging issue because they are still around and have little interest in fully assimilating. I see what you mean. Where do you think is going to happen? The world's focused on Greece and from what Zohar posted these people are almost as bad as the Golden Dawn, but it's not showing up on the international radar.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:29
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Kavak posted:I see what you mean. Where do you think is going to happen? The world's focused on Greece and from what Zohar posted these people are almost as bad as the Golden Dawn, but it's not showing up on the international radar. Paul Krugman had some guest columns on it a couple years ago, as the country's new constitution was being put through, but other than that, there hasn't been much...
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Oct 28, 2013 03:41
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Can't these fascists just look at history and realize all they are going to succeed at is getting alot of people killed.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:43
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Baloogan posted:Can't these fascists just look at history and realize all they are going to succeed at is getting alot of people killed. That's precisely what they want, Fascism thrives off war glorification and there's a potential here for a  but I don't even want to think about something like that happening in Hungary again
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Oct 28, 2013 03:50
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Baloogan posted:IF you euros go all facist and goose stepping we are going to have to go in again and fix you idiots up again. I didn't know you were Russian, because it sure as poo poo wasn't the Americans the reason WWII was won.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:57
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HookShot posted:I didn't know you were Russian, because it sure as poo poo wasn't the Americans the reason WWII was won. The Red Army wasn't fed and equipped by Russia.
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Oct 28, 2013 03:59
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I think canada won wwii.
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Oct 28, 2013 04:01
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Baloogan posted:I think canada won wwii. Canada fed and trained the British during the Battle of Britain and was responsible for defending half the North Atlantic from the Germans.  Also we got a beach on D-Day and liberated the Low Countries.
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Oct 28, 2013 04:03
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