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BryanChavez posted:I can very much understand the sense of wonder that comes from experiencing something in its wholeness for the first time. I just recently listened to Anais Mitchell's Hadestown, and I was lost in it for days. The first time I saw Jesus Christ Superstar in the theater, I was overwhelmed. Obviously, for me, aural experiences are more capable of doing this than anything. To see something in all its grandeur, taking it all in at once, can be a very amazing experience. I'm not denying that, in any way, shape, or form. You'll be able to judge whether they work or not.
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Oct 29, 2013 06:49
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The million dollar question is when. Because if it was literally Christmas morning I think we'd all be shocked at this point, (as opposed to like, spring 2014. Or possibly fall 2014, we've been given absolutely nothing.)
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Oct 29, 2013 06:59
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mistaya posted:The million dollar question is when. Because if it was literally Christmas morning I think we'd all be shocked at this point, (as opposed to like, spring 2014.) I don't have an answer to that one—all I can do is assure you that as various bits of the manuscript are finalized and sent to me for editing, I turn them around as promptly as I can.
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Oct 29, 2013 07:01
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I think this is just the side-effect of having marketing and development happen simultaneously. And having each product be a largely freelance affair. We gain a lot of unprecedented openness during product development, at the cost of terminal hype burnout. And that's nobody's fault, really, we just get hyped.
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Oct 29, 2013 07:14
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Mendrian posted:I think this is just the side-effect of having marketing and development happen simultaneously. And having each product be a largely freelance affair. We gain a lot of unprecedented openness during product development, at the cost of terminal hype burnout. And that's nobody's fault, really, we just get hyped. Almost certainly. I think people are accustomed to a certain degree of instant gratification, especially with information delivered digitally—it does feel weird that we have access to this info and we're choosing not to share it yet. That said, I don't think there's any moral onus on us to do so. Ultimately KS backers will have access to a draft PDF early so we can crowd source a search for typos that escaped my edits, and there won't be anything stopping those backers from talking about the book' contents on every forum on the Internet. When the book goes up for sale, all the info will be out for people to make informed buying decisions, I guess it would have been nice if we could have offered the entire manuscript as a KS preview as some other games do, so backers could have made the same informed decision, but we didn't promise that when we ran the KS. Absent moral onus to disclose preview material, John and Holden's chosen strategy is as valid as any and more valid than some.
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Oct 29, 2013 07:27
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Stephenls posted:, he's not lying to cover for some other motive. You guys have actually cited the crazy overblown fanbase convincing itself/everyone else that everything is broken and therefore poisoning the well as your reason for not releasing mechanics, though. For instance: the charm previews, which stopped for some reason
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Oct 29, 2013 07:32
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Well, I don't think you're bad people for not offering more in the way of substantial previews. I just think it's kind of weird and dumb. Honestly I just wish you guys would shut the gently caress up with all of the 'tee-hee it's going to be so great guys' poo poo, while offering nothing of substance at the same time. As far as the Christmas analogy goes, I'm also not a fan of someone who starts telling me in October how awesome my gift is and how I'm going to absolutely poo poo myself when I open it, over and over and over again, except in this reality Christmas is in temporal flux and may come at any moment but certainly not soon, so I'm not sure when I'm actually going to get to see. Again, not a moral issue. Just kind of annoying, guys. It tends to sour. Edit: I should probably consider not throwing around 'gently caress' constantly with people I don't really know. I'm not pissed off at you, I'm just foul-mouthed. Sorry. BryanChavez fucked around with this message at 07:39 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 07:34
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Yea I actually wouldn't care too much if every update wasn't "YOU GUYS ARE GONNA LOVE IT, WE GOT NOTHIN RIGHT NOW BUT TRUST US IT'S COOL" what the gently caress good does that do me?
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Oct 29, 2013 07:42
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My strategy is just not to pay any attention to Exalted at all. Maybe it'll come out, maybe it won't. Who knows? A backer PDF in 2013? Who cares? Next year in Jerusalem!
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Oct 29, 2013 09:04
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The way I think of it is that I still have a huge Steam backlog to get through. Holden's twitter comments and Stephanis's good nature on the board keeps us informed. All in all not a terrible thing to wait for.
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Oct 29, 2013 09:09
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Stephenls posted:Absent moral onus to disclose preview material, John and Holden's chosen strategy is as valid as any and more valid than some. It's kind of weird that you're couching this in terms of instant gratification and "moral onus" rather than "maybe after the last edition was a steady decline into shittiness people would like some tangible proof that you aren't just blowing smoke up their asses this time." But I guess that's just your irrational fanbase being overly entitled or something.
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Oct 29, 2013 10:01
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Kai Tave posted:It's kind of weird that you're couching this in terms of instant gratification and "moral onus" rather than "maybe after the last edition was a steady decline into shittiness people would like some tangible proof that you aren't just blowing smoke up their asses this time." But I guess that's just your irrational fanbase being overly entitled or something. Yeah, I mean compare this to the development of 13th Age. On one hand you've got a guy providing clear, informative responses to people's questions about the game, multiple playtest drafts and an active development blog - there's a healthy dialogue going on there. On the other hand you've got a game which managed to raise however many millions of dollars and you're offering us the chance to correct your typos once the book's done. There's no dialogue with the development because "Holden's just weird like that!" I mean it's not that I'm worried because you haven't got an explanation, I'm worried because you've got a really weak explanation which explains literally nothing. Why is it important that we get the "Christmas morning experience"? Who asked for this?
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Oct 29, 2013 10:39
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Not only that, but if you are REALLY concerned about making the best game possible, you seriously want to get that info out ASAP. Look at FATE core. We got bi-weekly updates every step of the way, and due to the remarks of the backers, many things changed in the process. It ended up as one of the best, most clear systems I've ever read, not to mention excellent editing and almost no typos. Having backers that are willing to work with you in making the game a great product is a huge asset, and the Ex3 devs should take more advantage of that.
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Oct 29, 2013 11:51
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I haven't been paying close attention, I've just been kind of expecting the worst and hoping to be surprised. I'm just worried from all the tidbits that the game looks like an fiercely-polished version of 2e, when I was hoping for more of a sea change. Cynicism protects me from disappointment, hopefully. I think it's unfortunate that Exalted fandom has probably created the impression among developers that giving people a glimpse of their work is putting their balls before the buzzsaw, because silence does send a message. Unfortunately, it's a negative one.
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Oct 29, 2013 13:35
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I think it's unfortunate that Exalted fandom has probably created the impression among developers that giving people a glimpse of their work is putting their balls before the buzzsaw, because silence does send a message. Unfortunately, it's a negative one. Y'know, I'm not psychic and thus I can't speak to Holden's precise motivations, but if you, the hypothetical game designer in this scenario, have reached the point where you don't want to show the fanbase you're ostensibly making a game for previews because you don't want to deal with their potential reaction then it sounds to me like your problems are more fundamental than "we need to tighten up the Charm mechanics on level 3." And honestly, what is there to lose at this point? The Kickstarter made a hojillion dollars already, all that money has already changed hands. Anybody sees preview material and has a meltdown, what are they gonna do about it? I'm only half paying attention to anything Ex3 related at this point but the more handwavey excuses I see for not offering up any substantive previews of the hotly anticipated game that people have pitched hundreds of thousands of dollars to have made the more it feels like the reason previews aren't being offered up is because people want them.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:08
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You guys do know that Stephen has exactly Jack poo poo he can do if Holden wants to sit on his mysterious secret game, right? These are all good points someone should make where he will actually see them. Has Ink Monkeys published anything before? I think it would be a lot more telling if this is new behavior for them. For my part I'm excited about the game but prepared for it to suck. I can't afford to buy it unless word of mouth is good and tells me it will appeal to my group, but I guess Kickstarter with a popular existing property means you don't need to worry about that kind of thing anymore.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:17
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Bigup DJ posted:I mean it's not that I'm worried because you haven't got an explanation, I'm worried because you've got a really weak explanation which explains literally nothing. Why is it important that we get the "Christmas morning experience"? Who asked for this? I don't think my parents ever bought me a Christmas or birthday present I asked for as such; I mean, they bought me presents but mostly they used what I was asking for and what they knew I wanted to triangulate to something I'd really enjoy but wasn't expecting. I always liked that. (This is an imperfect metaphor; for starters, they were the ones doing the buying.)
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Oct 29, 2013 14:19
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I don't know that the exalted team's stubbornness in the face of common sense (and perhaps moral obligation) is all that surprising considering the rape fiascos that happened during the kickstarter. That had no negative consequences as they made money hand over fist, so why would they bother doing anything except exactly what they want? They have all the money and the fans don't matter.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:22
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Gilok posted:Has Ink Monkeys published anything before? I think it would be a lot more telling if this is new behavior for them. Compass: Autochthonia, Masters of Jade, and Shards were all primarily Ink Monkeys projects; the first two hit their deadlines and the last one was, what, two months late? We expect to be able to consistently hit deadlines again once we're no longer working on the core rules for the entire line; we're good and experienced at supplements.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:23
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Ferrinus posted:You guys have actually cited the crazy overblown fanbase convincing itself/everyone else that everything is broken and therefore poisoning the well as your reason for not releasing mechanics, though. Which is kind of amazing really. "Our fans are so stupid and toxic they'll ruin everything, we can't trust them" is such an unhealthy and insulting attitude for a content creator to take. Stephenls posted:I think people are accustomed to a certain degree of instant gratification...That said, I don't think there's any moral onus on us to do so. What the heck is this even supposed to mean It has nothing to do with instant gratification and everything to do with credibility. People want some kind of evidence for the claims made about Exalted 3e. They want substance to get excited about because the promises hype train ran out of steam already. It's not a question of moral obligation, it's people who really, really, really want to be excited about the thing Onyx Path is creating and getting frustrated when they're brushed off.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:23
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Bardlebee posted:But does anyone besides the developers know what charm trees are done and which are still beginning? Which ones are in editing and which ones are still play testing? The real worrying part is that even if they do play testing it might be so late in the development cycle that any concerns that arise from it might not be able to impact the final product in any meaningful way. The reason this is really worrying is that there have already been multiple cases where the Devs showed us material that was either sub-par or awful (ex. Bonus XP that's only usable on MA). And when they realized how much the community hated this idea, they responded accordingly (well, sometimes). So what happens if when they start play testing a large number of concerns pop up? Are they going to do the responsible thing and address those concerns, even if that means delaying the product an even further indefinite period of time? Or will they ignore the concerns because it's too late in the development cycle and make only a token effort to address them? Edit: Notice that there are a lot of hypotheticals in my post. The final product could just come out amazing, and I would love that if it happened. But why do the developers feel the need to ignore common practices that have been employed successfully by both the table top and video game industries to measure game quality and progress? Are they arrogant, incompetent, or something else? NIV3K fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 14:35
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Gilok posted:You guys do know that Stephen has exactly Jack poo poo he can do if Holden wants to sit on his mysterious secret game, right? These are all good points someone should make where he will actually see them. I'm pretty sure that even if he did see them it wouldn't change anything at this point. How long have people been wanting to see some substantive previews? At some point a cogent argument for doing so has to have come to his attention.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:36
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Gilok posted:You guys do know that Stephen has exactly Jack poo poo he can do if Holden wants to sit on his mysterious secret game, right? These are all good points someone should make where he will actually see them. He can pass things on. (Technically, Holden can still read the thread, not that I expect him to after the drubbing he took here.) That being said, yeah, I should comment on the Kickstarter thread more. Swagger Dagger posted:That had no negative consequences as they made money hand over fist, so why would they bother doing anything except exactly what they want? They have all the money and the fans don't matter. Well, the core book will do a lot to convince me to pick up or pass on supplements. Writing a game line is a long-term investment in your fans. Granted, Exalted fans have put up with quite a bit of nonsense on a regular basis, so it might indeed be bulletproof with the broader fanbase. As a Kickstarter backer, I'm not just a customer, I'm an investor, and not for a small chunk of change. The whole point of Kickstarter is to bring people in for support, and so it's disappointing when the creative team walls themselves off instead. It could be that the book will totally make up for that, but the problem is that I'm having to use the words "make up for that".
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Oct 29, 2013 14:41
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Plus, while a certain sense of entitlement is sort of baked in to any given fandom, the fact is that by crowdsourcing the product a lot of the people eager for details already paid for the game. I mean, certainly there is no moral onus, but if Kickstarter is going to be the primary funding method for these big projects you have to expect that your backers are going to in return expect an open, two-way process. This isn't Christmas morning-- it's an exchange of money for a product, and people get nervous as release dates slip and solid info still isn't forthcoming. It presents an image that the project's in trouble and stalling, even if it isn't. Edit: I mean, I feel basically like you guys are trying to have it both ways, here. People prefer to talk directly to the developers as opposed to a marketing person-- it feels more personal, more like you're getting a glimpse behind the curtain, and fans like that a lot. But if you're not actually going to offer that glimpse, then it seems all you're really doing is stressing yourselves out to no apparent benefit, because we wouldn't be asking the same questions of an ad slick. Adept Nightingale fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 14:43
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Alien Rope Burn posted:As a Kickstarter backer, I'm not just a customer, I'm an investor, and not for a small chunk of change. The whole point of Kickstarter is to bring people in for support, and so it's disappointing when the creative team walls themselves off instead. It could be that the book will totally make up for that, but the problem is that I'm having to use the words "make up for that". But the magical, Christmas-like joy you experience when you finally get to see the game you've payed significant money to invest in and know nothing about up 'til that point will make it all worth the while.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:43
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So what I'm gathering is that Exalted development is like the catholic church. You talk to a priest who talks to god, and every now and then some smoke is released and a new edition emerges from a cloistered development session.
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Oct 29, 2013 14:50
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Kai Tave posted:But the magical, Christmas-like joy you experience when you finally get to see the game you've payed significant money to invest in and know nothing about up 'til that point will make it all worth the while. Man, does this mean Holden is a lie, and there's just fat guys they hire to dress up in his account on forums? Wait- do I have to sit on his lap and tell him what I want? 
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Oct 29, 2013 15:07
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Swagger Dagger posted:So what I'm gathering is that Exalted development is like the catholic church. In all fairness to Holy Mother Church, their sorcery mechanics are publicly available.
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Oct 29, 2013 15:34
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Stephenls posted:I don't think my parents ever bought me a Christmas or birthday present I asked for as such; I mean, they bought me presents but mostly they used what I was asking for and what they knew I wanted to triangulate to something I'd really enjoy but wasn't expecting. I always liked that. Did they often take money from you for one specific gift and when you ask 'hey how's getting me that gift going?' they just smirk and go 'who knooooooooooooows~'? People are accustomed to 'instant gratification' because good Kickstarters keep people involved in the project to show them that their money isn't being wasted and the people involved are working hard. It creates trust between the consumer and the seller because even just an update every other week of 'hey guys we're working hard, here's a little bit of what we've done' and like, I dunno one rule, and a description of why the person posting it thinks that's an important thing to show off shows us that things are moving forward.
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Oct 29, 2013 15:45
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You know, I want mechanics previews as much as the rest of you, but I'd accept a total blackout in exchange for an oath that character generation won't involve spending one resource to buy traits at flat costs while character advancement involves spending a different resource on the same traits that now have either proportionately different flat costs, scaling costs, or no cost at all.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:14
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At this point, it's like you're setting yourselves up for failure. Some people will have insane expectations and rather than trying to set a bar, Ex3 just keeps telling people that their expectations aren't insane(ly good) enough. Even if Ex3 turns out to be as good as promised, what we've been told to expect has been inflated excessively. Falling short of the stupidly high bar doesn't mean it's a failure, it just makes me wonder what the hell the whole point was. It's kind of pointless to hype things up and then have nothing to back it up with other than more hype and more promises. That Christmas morning experience doesn't work when you keep hyping it up over and over too early.
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Oct 29, 2013 16:32
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People seem to be missing the idea that this game is a creative work a sit is not wholly unreasonable fr the creators to believe that there is a particular way that it should be presented. If an artist declines to show working sketches and materials until after the showing of a finished new piece, it's not stupid, even if that artist is working on commission, if, as in this case, the artist has entered into a contract where they have complete creative freedom. I want to see previews as much as all of you. Perhaps more than most, given my high reward tier and my habit of bothering all my friends about every single update on this. But that is no cause to accuse the developers of doing their job poorly, or of being unreasonably prideful or what-have-you. If you wish to present your grievances, which are not entirely unreasonable given that we have a non-ideal proportion of product in hand to time waited, please do so in a manner that at least makes pretentions to respect. Remember that these guys do get to read all these posts you're making. But, in all honesty, devs, some sort of substantial info on the game is always good. There are 2 months left in 2013, and right now it looks from the outside like the game is half-done, and we hardly know anything about that half. I appreciate that the core engine probably can't be spoiled more than it already is without either giving misleading impressions or just revealing the whole thing, but surely there is enough smaller material that can be easily presented in little weekly teasers? A single new or way-changed Charm, or a tantalizing entry on how a weapon type works (maybe without explicitly describing the new mechanics, if that'd be too involved with the engine). We're a very devoted fan-base, and I would sincerely like to stop including "use another system but keep the setting" in my elevator pitch for this game. I can't draw new fans in with a promise of a new edition that I know little about. (P.S what is the updates timeframe for those custom Charms?)
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Oct 29, 2013 16:51
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Stephenls, I don't want to scare you away in thinking we don't like your interaction here. I am sure everyone, including myself, are happy this is even happening. But, I would argue any rules you have should be made public for the public to break and bitch about. Take the breaking and bitching as a sign that some mechanics need to change. Some of it might be just noise, but I think as a whole it would be beneficial for the community to help bring up this game, just as the community helped invest and fund this game. I think the Exalted community, as terrible as it may be, has a very avid role in wanting to make the game better and not worse. It's like you get people to edit/critique your work for free. I would do it, the worst that could happen is they don't agree with your methods and you stick to them. I don't think anyone necessarily cares about the Christmas feel. While albeit its nice, we are just very concerned that the system simply won't work. To put that at rest you could simply release things with HUGE disclaimers stating "NOT PLAY TESTED/ALL THEORYCRAFT!" and still have people find the bugs and find ways to make it better. Isn't that worth it?
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Oct 29, 2013 16:56
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Ferrinus posted:You know, I want mechanics previews as much as the rest of you, but I'd accept a total blackout in exchange for an oath that character generation won't involve spending one resource to buy traits at flat costs while character advancement involves spending a different resource on the same traits that now have either proportionately different flat costs, scaling costs, or no cost at all. I'd like to live in the universe where this was possible. I bet it's the one where Hitler became a painter, too. realbrickwall posted:People seem to be missing the idea that this game is a creative work a sit is not wholly unreasonable fr the creators to believe that there is a particular way that it should be presented. If an artist declines to show working sketches and materials until after the showing of a finished new piece, it's not stupid, even if that artist is working on commission, if, as in this case, the artist has entered into a contract where they have complete creative freedom. Nobody has missed that, man. We're not less perceptive than you, or less capable of grasping concepts. We just... disagree. Y'know? Nobody's being disrespectful either, except for the devs, who have still failed to apologize despite the assertion that they would. Everyone's just expressing their views plainly. I have no problem with 'these guys' reading any of these posts. They can take it, I'm sure. It can't be worse than Holden's evisceration. I mean. Isn't it literally our jobs as customers or potential customers to decide whether the developers are doing their job poorly? BryanChavez fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 17:03
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I remember that Christmas. I already knew my Mom was "Santa", so I had done everything my tiny mind could to implant in her the suggestion that what I really needed for Christmas was a Nintendo 64. She started dropping hints, too. She told me "Santa" had surely gotten the gift already. I shouldn't be afraid of Santa not knowing what I wanted, since he has magic powers and he definitely knew, and had gotten his chubby hands on a Nintendo 64, just for me. Cue Christmas morning and an excited tiny Hugoon Chavez, rushing for the tree. There it was! A big box with "HUGOON CHAVEZ" written in a card. I ripped open the gift wrap. I was excited, panting. Then finally the contents of the box were revealed.  This is going to be Ex3. v Yeah I was just trying to be funny. I'm hoping it's good, but the christmas morning analogy just made me think of all the times this happened. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 17:21
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I remember that Christmas. I already knew my Mom was "Santa", so I had done everything my tiny mind could to implant in her the suggestion that what I really needed for Christmas was a Nintendo 64. Nah.
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Oct 29, 2013 18:44
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If there's not going to be built-in programs, no sale.
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Oct 29, 2013 18:50
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Not only that, but if you are REALLY concerned about making the best game possible, you seriously want to get that info out ASAP. Look at this marketing plan! It certainly is great...until we figure out that it's mostly marketing and that we're not going to be really that interested in a game that our design by collective came up with why the gently caress would we pay for it wait. Gamers are really stupid about understanding marketing techniques.
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Oct 29, 2013 19:45
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Mexcillent posted:Look at this marketing plan! It certainly is great...until we figure out that it's mostly marketing and that we're not going to be really that interested in a game that our design by collective came up with why the gently caress would we pay for it wait.
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Oct 29, 2013 19:51
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Mexcillent posted:Look at this marketing plan! It certainly is great...until we figure out that it's mostly marketing and that we're not going to be really that interested in a game that our design by collective came up with why the gently caress would we pay for it wait. They've already made this sale. They have nothing to lose but my goodwill.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:00
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