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"Let me reiterate my hook and sinker belief in this marketing plan and brand, then continue to demand that all companies and endeavors follow the same marketing plan."
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Oct 29, 2013 20:06
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Mexcillent posted:"Let me reiterate my hook and sinker belief in this marketing plan and brand, then continue to demand that all companies and endeavors follow the same marketing plan." It's a fairly well-tested model, insofar as this industry has such a thing, and it would do a lot to counter the ill will the May 27/29 updates garnered and keep the playerbase from becoming increasingly insular and creep-tastic.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:16
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Thesaurasaurus posted:It's a fairly well-tested model, insofar as this industry has such a thing, and it would do a lot to counter the ill will the May 27/29 updates garnered and keep the playerbase from becoming increasingly insular and creep-tastic. It's a marketing model, that's certainly true. But yeah, I liked the backlash against Ghost Rape, don't get me wrong. At the same time "insular and creeptastic" is kind of what happened when they stuck to feedback from RPGnet and WW forum contributors.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:22
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Mexcillent posted:It's a marketing model, that's certainly true. Right, they're ignoring our feedback and paying (some) attention to the White Wolf Official Forums and RPGnet. I'm saying they've got it backwards, if their goal is making a clean break from the crass, juvenile poo poo.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:26
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Right, they're ignoring our and paying (some) attention to the White Wolf Official Forums and RPGnet. I'm saying they've got it backwards, if their goal is making a clean break from the crass, juvenile poo poo. Yeah, but here you have all the dudes ennobling a marketing strategy as great. The thing is, these mechanics are gonna probably be works in progress. Crowdsourcing them doesn't mean that something is bound to get better, but rather just generates buzz. As posted above. I have no faith in you guys to "improve" the system simply because you know it, you'll have to play, playtest to the edges of the system, and understand the full development cycle that is probably contingent for Onyx Path games right now. In short, you guys are asking for something that isn't going to happen loudly and obnoxiously because of marketing efforts on the parts of other companies and every time I see new posts here I expect to see something interesting but instead just see constant passive aggression. Its loving tiresome.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:30
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I figure crowd sourcing a system requires some fairly specific skills and a quite hefty amount of time spent reading and interacting with comments. If you don't have those skills, or if you don't make enough time available to do it properly, the method loses most of it's value as a development tool and, if done badly enough, most of its value as a marketing tool as well. If I were to guess, I'd guess the developers looked at how their fan interactions had gone during the kick starter, how much time they had spent, how much stress this had caused and what they felt they had gained from it in material and marketing and decided that fan involvement in the process wasn't really their thing. I'm inclined to agree (with the hypothetical notion) that they don't seem very well equipped for leading a crowdsourcing project, and while I do prefer an open model to a closed one, a badly done open process will just steal their time and energy, add nothing to the product and still piss off the fans. bondetamp fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 20:31
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Don't get me wrong I'd like to see more info from the developers, but like crowdsourcing poo poo seen as a "must-have" that will automatically make a product better and better is loving stupid.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:31
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Mexcillent posted:The thing is, these mechanics are gonna probably be works in progress. Mexcillent posted:Crowdsourcing them doesn't mean that something is bound to get better, but rather just generates buzz. As posted above. I have no faith in you guys to "improve" the system The fact is that this place is far less of an approval echo-chamber than the WW forums, so I'd honestly prefer to interact with the devs here.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:41
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Mexcillent posted:Yeah, but here you have all the dudes ennobling a marketing strategy as great. I'm not talking about stress-testing the edge cases, I'm talking about glaring faults such as XP that can only go towards Martial Arts, or using Martial Arts to refer to half a skill, a subsystem, a body of combat styles, and charm groupings, or chargen that doesn't even try for XP parity. Also, if every element of the system is so tightly cross-linked to the others that no individual piece can stand up to scrutiny on its own, that in and of itself is cause for concern.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:48
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Dodge Charms posted:Even still now, after months of work, you think the core mechanics are such a "work in progress" that they couldn't show anything at all? Yes, I do. Because I know roleplaying game development is not video game development I assume that the core mechanics will be a work in progress even when published.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:48
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Thesaurasaurus posted:I'm not talking about stress-testing the edge cases, I'm talking about glaring faults such as XP that can only go towards Martial Arts, or using Martial Arts to refer to half a skill, a subsystem, a body of combat styles, and charm groupings, or chargen that doesn't even try for XP parity. Also, if every element of the system is so tightly cross-linked to the others that no individual piece can stand up to scrutiny on its own, that in and of itself is cause for concern. Or maybe they just don't feel like showing it to you. I don't know. I think that if you guys are aware of a mechanical limitation especially if it comes out of the dumb bullshit in 2e that the development team is probably aware of it, right?
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Oct 29, 2013 20:50
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The problem is right now it really feels like we tossed 100 bux at Duke Nukem Forever: Tabletop Edition. I get that Ink Monkeys, who were responsible for the clean-up duty for 2E, want to make sure the core of 3E isn't going to require that kind of rebuilding further into the line. The delays aren't a big deal. But the lack of communication is a big deal. We paid for the book already, so yeah, we are going to feel a little bit entitled when there is no projected release whatsoever coupled with not even a tidbit of info every now and then. Throw us a charm once a week or something. Something small that proves you're actually working on the book instead of snorting cocaine off hookers. That's all we want guys, it's not a lot to ask. Oh, and no more fiction previews. You don't want us tearing apart a 2 page fluff piece far more harshly than it deserves due to boredom which is exactly what happens every time you release one. Those are actually nice to read in the context of the book, not as snippets in an email.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:51
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mistaya posted:The problem is right now it really feels like we tossed 100 bux at Duke Nukem Forever: Tabletop Edition. That's your problem for being dumb enough to buy into marketing? I don't know. I certainly didn't preorder poo poo cus I'm poor.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:53
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Mexcillent posted:That's your problem for being dumb enough to buy into marketing? I don't know. I'm not sure what you're getting at here? If someone invested in a product release, they tend to expect to hear progress reports on how that product is coming along. Best practice is to not snub your stakeholders when they have questions.
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Oct 29, 2013 20:55
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Mexcillent posted:I certainly didn't preorder poo poo cus I'm poor. Why are you even defending them? If you didn't pony up, you don't feel like they owe you poo poo. A lot of us did, and we do feel they owe us something (a completed loving book) and wanting a progress update now and then isn't a lot to ask since we're the ones who paid them to write it. And got them multiple pay increases for doing so during the Kickstarter itself if memory serves.
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Oct 29, 2013 21:03
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mistaya posted:I get that Ink Monkeys, who were responsible for the clean-up duty for 2E, want to make sure the core of 3E isn't going to require that kind of rebuilding further into the line. The delays aren't a big deal. But the lack of communication is a big deal. We paid for the book already, so yeah, we are going to feel a little bit entitled when there is no projected release whatsoever coupled with not even a tidbit of info every now and then. It's a bit of a concern that the one and only thing they gave themselves a deadline for -- the post-Kickstarter rapeghost apology -- seems to have gone forgotten. I actually like the fiction bits being available outside of the book, because they're things I would send around to players to convey the tone and themes of the game, to sell the game as a thing which they should buy so we can play it together. (But I do agree that they are not currently what I would like to see in terms of content previews.)
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Oct 29, 2013 21:26
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Just because something works as a marketing strategy doesn't mean it can't also improve the product. A lot of criticisms of preview material have been good, and while the majority of them have been dumb, I do think there's room for the good ones to resound and be heard, talked over, and potentially implemented. I don't want to talk about creepy ghosts again, but during the Infernals preview, the developers heard "Hey, it would be cooler if the Yozi Escape wasn't a thing that was talked up this edition, and the main thing was just them living vicariously through their Green Sun Children." The developers heard this, said it was what they wanted to do but were worried about the fan response, and implemented it. It's not vulnerable to "design by committee" because the designers ultimately aren't obligated to respond to fan criticism, and the fan criticism will generally swing both ways anyway. It is a way to keep the fans emotionally invested and excited about the product, and it's also a way to catch hilariously stupid rules or samples before things go to print, like 5th Edition Shadowrun's Ultra-lethal Flashbangs or everything the Pathfinder developers ignored. Personally, I think the game would benefit from even 5% of the Kickstarter backers looking over the preview material and questioning things. poo poo, while Ferrinus and I have butted heads several times over the best way to do things, he's pointed out enough potential problems in existing stuff that he and one other skeptical eye alone would probably justify the policy on the basis of whether it would make the game better.
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Oct 29, 2013 21:34
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Given Holden's utterly inane defensive comments about certain aspects of the system it might be better for all parties that his work is not publicly available until we can fix it ourselves. While the KS was going on he defended the XP/BP divide by saying he once powergamed Nobilis therefore all systems can be point-optimized therefore there's no point in designing a system that discourages point-optimization. Do you really think anyone is going to make an argument that convinces a guy like that to do anything?
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Oct 29, 2013 21:41
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While I am of course a genius and could easily improve E3 tenfold with just a day to peruse the .pdf, I don't really think a deliberate strategy of crowdsourcing is going to make or break the game - as long as they actually playtest it like they said they would, and five out the pdf early for typo-proofing like they've said they're gonna, the game's gonna be fine. It's just, like... I got to see some nWoD mechanics early, and really liked them. I got to see some of the Exalted 2e mechanics early, and thought THOSE were pretty cool, at the time (evidence that broad previews don't perfectly defend, heh, against lousy rules). And, indeed, a series of mechanics previews were underway for Exalted 3e, and then suddenly stopped, because I guess the WW forums kvetched too loudly and then all this haunting started up. So, like, come on. Come on!
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Oct 29, 2013 21:51
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Swagger Dagger posted:So what I'm gathering is that Exalted development is like the catholic church. And also like the catholic church, Exalted has a pretty bad history with the sexual abuse of children.
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Oct 29, 2013 21:58
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Ferrinus posted:You know, I want mechanics previews as much as the rest of you, but I'd accept a total blackout in exchange for an oath that character generation won't involve spending one resource to buy traits at flat costs while character advancement involves spending a different resource on the same traits that now have either proportionately different flat costs, scaling costs, or no cost at all. I tried to tell Holden that this was tiresome back when Trinity was still a thing and rather than force GMs who care about balance and marginal utility to devise restrictive house rules or crunch numbers to get a chargen system where people aren't left behind he should just replace exp with dots. His response disappointed me. 
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Oct 29, 2013 21:59
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ErichZahn posted:I tried to tell Holden that this was tiresome back when Trinity was still a thing and rather than force GMs who care about balance and marginal utility to devise restrictive house rules or crunch numbers to get a chargen system where people aren't left behind he should just replace exp with dots. Remember, perfect balance is impossible, which is why a clarity/newbie-friendliness issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with balance should remain in the game for legacy reasons. I hope they make us roll for our attributes next.
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Oct 29, 2013 22:02
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Ferrinus posted:Remember, perfect balance is impossible, which is why a clarity/newbie-friendliness issue that has nothing whatsoever to do with balance should remain in the game for legacy reasons. I hope they make us roll for our attributes next. Clearly we should ROLEplay for stats just like we did for 2e Backgrounds after chargen. There are no official mechanics, therefore the official mechanics can't be unbalanced. Genius!
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Oct 29, 2013 22:07
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Mexcillent posted:In short, you guys are asking for something that isn't going to happen loudly and obnoxiously because of marketing efforts on the parts of other companies and every time I see new posts here I expect to see something interesting but instead just see constant passive aggression. Its loving tiresome. In terms of tiresome constant passive aggression, no one is obligated to post poo poo you want to read, dude. I am super sorry you hate that other people have opinions on Exalted but if you could ease back on the lectures on what people are allowed to post that would be super, kay?
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Oct 29, 2013 22:11
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Okay, here's my character sheet: Martial Arts: 4 Martial Arts: 5 Martial Arts: 1 Martial Arts: 2 (Martial Arts +3)
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Oct 29, 2013 22:11
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, here's my character sheet: Spreading out like this is suboptimal. Have you considered focusing on Martial Arts?
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Oct 29, 2013 22:17
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Just because something works as a marketing strategy doesn't mean it can't also improve the product. A lot of criticisms of preview material have been good, and while the majority of them have been dumb, I do think there's room for the good ones to resound and be heard, talked over, and potentially implemented. I don't want to talk about creepy ghosts again, but during the Infernals preview, the developers heard "Hey, it would be cooler if the Yozi Escape wasn't a thing that was talked up this edition, and the main thing was just them living vicariously through their Green Sun Children." The developers heard this, said it was what they wanted to do but were worried about the fan response, and implemented it. Being so worried about the fan response that you'd make a "safe" move which no one actually wanted is not a good way to be!
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Oct 29, 2013 22:19
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Attorney at Funk posted:Spreading out like this is suboptimal. Have you considered focusing on Martial Arts? I thought about it, but it'd leave me with too little Martial Arts to use Martial Arts.
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Oct 29, 2013 22:25
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RPZip posted:And also like the catholic church, Exalted has a pretty bad history with the sexual abuse of children. Hahah you made someone mad. 
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Oct 29, 2013 22:31
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Pumpkin_Paine posted:Hahah you made someone mad. I'm so proud. 
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Oct 29, 2013 22:43
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People get so hung up over factual statements. 
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Oct 29, 2013 22:48
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Right, they're ignoring our feedback and paying (some) attention to the White Wolf Official Forums and RPGnet. I'm saying they've got it backwards, if their goal is making a clean break from the crass, juvenile poo poo. Are you typing this stuff with a straight face?
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Oct 29, 2013 23:04
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e:removed.
Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 23:27
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I really think assumed hostility between this forum in particular and the Exalted devs is unwarranted? Like, I still think Holden or whoever's insistence that Abyssal charms should be mandatorily rather than optionally sexy is pretty goofy, but it's not like those guys are ardent defenders of E: Infernals or anything? I blame the current gulf on Winson Paine's enforcing the forum rules. If Holden's low effort posting had been allowed to slide, we'd all still be hanging out and being friends...
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Oct 29, 2013 23:54
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Honestly I wasn't thinking about Holden much at all. I just found it funny, the idea that people think this place would be better for a clean break from juvenile poo poo than the progressive hugbox of RPG.net.
Hidingo Kojimba fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 00:01
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Hidingo Kojimba posted:Are you typing this stuff with a straight face? I don't think that's outlandish at all. They have always taken a lot of stuff off of the WW forums, especially, and those things are basically a massive loving blowjob echochamber
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Oct 30, 2013 00:23
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I do think this place would be a good forum for honest, critical feedback. The feeling I get on RPGnet and the WW forums is very polarized, in a deeply for-us-or-against-us kind of way, to an extent that I usually only see in edition wars, and that kind of polarization prohibits criticism. The WW forums are even worse.
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Oct 30, 2013 00:35
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Stallion Cabana posted:I don't think that's outlandish at all. They have always taken a lot of stuff off of the WW forums, especially, and those things are basically a massive loving blowjob echochamber To go along with what you are saying, I agree that RPG.net is significantly better than the White Wolf forums because RPG.net mods are willing to ban people for being terrible in the worst ways, but if you're terrible in constantly grating instead of disgusting and offensive ways, you can survive on RPG.net for quite a long time before being banned. The last time I tried to discuss Exalted on RPG.net, I believe I ended up butting heads with someone complaining about how my proposed suggestions to improve the setting would mess with their headcanon. I like to think if anyone in this thread started complaining about how people's suggestions about the setting were to mess with their headcanon, the Paine Traine would roll into town and do something funny.
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Oct 30, 2013 00:38
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:To go along with what you are saying, I agree that RPG.net is significantly better than the White Wolf forums because RPG.net mods are willing to ban people for being terrible in the worst ways, but if you're terrible in constantly grating instead of disgusting and offensive ways, you can survive on RPG.net for quite a long time before being banned. The last time I tried to discuss Exalted on RPG.net, I believe I ended up butting heads with someone complaining about how my proposed suggestions to improve the setting would mess with their headcanon. I like to think if anyone in this thread started complaining about how people's suggestions about the setting were to mess with their headcanon, the Paine Traine would roll into town and do something funny. I'm imagining essays on why their headcanon is better then the normal fluff, to be judged by the Mods.
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Oct 30, 2013 00:40
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I dunno, at this point it's not even an issue of criticism and feedback. I'd like to see some content just because they've been making wild promises this entire time and have done absolutely nothing to back it up except whine about the fans and whine about past writers and tell us it'll be cool honest but we can't show you (but it'll be cool also it's not coming out for another year). You can only be hype about promises for so long.
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Oct 30, 2013 00:42
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