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DeclaredYuppie posted:Best of Both Worlds level season climax with the Xindi arc Holy  , you aren't getting away with this without comment.And that comment is another hearty
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Oct 30, 2013 07:59
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McSpanky posted:Holy 
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Oct 30, 2013 08:06
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DrSunshine posted:Aw man, started watching "Real Life". The Doctor's family are a bunch of perfect Stepford folks straight out of some 1950s sitcom -- or maybe a cereal commercial! If I was B'Elana I'd be creeped out by them too. I watched it as a result of this discussion too. The problems being discussed mostly didn't seem to really exist in the episode - The Doctor consents explicitly to the idea that there should be some random chance introduced into the simulation, and the moral isn't "life is hell" so much as "familial bonds are forged in both good times and bad times." Which isn't that interesting a moral, but the episode does sell that The Doctor needed to learn that lesson, at least. It does have problems though. It's emotionally manipulative as gently caress in how dreadful the "realistic" family life becomes - the only positive moment The Doctor shares with any member of his family after the adjustment is, of course, with his daughter, whose "realistic" self is introduced to us as a shrieking brat. It also obviously takes most of the air out of the premise when The Doctor's character development is reset by the very next episode. I'll also give Voyager credit for something I hadn't realized about it before - Janeway is rarely an interesting character, but she does have a basically distinctive leadership style among the franchise's captains: she's first-name with everyone and rather chummy, using informal language even when things are tense. It helped to sell the themes of family in this episode. Space Hamlet fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 08:35
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I think a lot of Janeway's characterization problems stem from the writers going "She can't be too emotional because then she'll be an overly emotional woman stereotype, so she has to be calm and rational, but if she's too calm and rational she'll be an icy bitchqueen stereotype and we can't have that, and if she's too formal she'll be a bitch and we can't have that.." and so on. The end result being a character who flops between emotional outbursts and icy bitchqueen mode at random intervals and whose only consistent character traits are "likes coffee" and "prefers to be called Captain instead of ma'am or sir".
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Oct 30, 2013 09:01
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Space Hamlet posted:It does have problems though. It's emotionally manipulative as gently caress in how dreadful the "realistic" family life becomes - the only positive moment The Doctor shares with any member of his family after the adjustment is, of course, with his daughter, whose "realistic" self is introduced to us as a shrieking brat. It also obviously takes most of the air out of the premise when The Doctor's character development is reset by the very next episode. The problem with the "realism" is that it veers so far in the opposite direction from what The Doctor had originally programmed his family to be like, that B'Elanna's idea of "reality" is itself shockingly unrealistic.
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Oct 30, 2013 09:08
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I don't think the changes B'elanna made to the Doctors family were as stark and people are saying really. Granted, the very first scene post-change makes them SEEM really huge and insane and exactly as bad as the Doctor's version on the opposite end of the spectrum, which is bad if the point is to sell us on this situation being more real. But the later scenes ARE a lot more grounded. The whole scene where the Doctor grounds his son before he gets himself thrown in prison for murdering someone because of Klingon peer pressure, then has this warm, loving scene with his fake daughter comforting him over the rift forming between him and his son was... really real. I've seen that exact thing play out in real life. The family meeting scene also struck me as incredibly real. I think saying B'elanna's warped view of the world made her create a comically disfunctional family to torment the Doctor with is a misguided way to view the episode. Also saying B'elanna killed the daughter is silly, she died in a Paresis Squares accident. All B'elanna did was make it possible for an incredibly dangerous sport to actually hurt the child, like how in Pleasentville the warping of the world suddenly made it possible for the basketball team to lose games. There's a lot to complain about in terms of "kill a child so the doctor can learn something then never talk about it again," but blaming B'elanna for it isn't part of it. Also it's 100 posts late, but gently caress anybody who doesn't like The Killing Game. If the fact that you have aliens wearing nazi uniforms in it is SOOOOO egregious for you in STAR TREK, the president for life of the ham-fisted metaphors club, that's fine. But don't disparage one of the best things in Voyager because of a relatively aesthetic element that both Enterprise AND TOS did way worse.
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Oct 30, 2013 10:36
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Sanguinia posted:Also it's 100 posts late, but gently caress anybody who doesn't like The Killing Game. If the fact that you have aliens wearing nazi uniforms in it is SOOOOO egregious for you in STAR TREK, the president for life of the ham-fisted metaphors club, that's fine. But don't disparage one of the best things in Voyager because of a relatively aesthetic element that both Enterprise AND TOS did way worse. Seriously, at least it's not parallel development nazi aliens or time travel nazi aliens, it's "Hey, you guys have a super violent past, THIS IS PRETTY GREAT!!!" aliens in nazi costumes.
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Oct 30, 2013 10:44
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BrandonGK posted:My favorite part of the episode is the fact that The Doctor experiencing the death of a child is never mentioned again, not even once. Later on in the show he spends three years on an alien world, integrating into their society, falling in love, and apparently adopts a son before being beamed away whoops doesn't affect him at all.
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Oct 30, 2013 12:37
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DeclaredYuppie posted:Well it was the end of the TCW and they only had one season left so not too shocking it never came up again. Really the bigger issue is you had this big Best of Both Worlds level season climax with the Xindi arc, and 4x03 is a great episode addressing some of the personal repercussions of that/resetting the show a bit, and Storm Front just completely gets in the way of that. If they had squeezed Storm Front in the middle of season 4 (maybe even right after the Soong arc) it would have been better. Turning the al'queda insert into literal nazis would have been the dumbest thing on this show if it weren't for the series finale
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Oct 30, 2013 12:42
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MikeJF posted:Later on in the show he spends three years on an alien world, integrating into their society, falling in love, and apparently adopts a son before being beamed away whoops doesn't affect him at all. Let's not forget the mysterious backup of the Doctor which is awoken centuries down the line, considering how many times the show goes on about how they can't back him up due to his complexity. Anytime he adds a ton of new subroutines to himself and glitches out, it's a story point that he can't be backed up, but that one episode...
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Oct 30, 2013 13:40
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Let's not forget the mysterious backup of the Doctor which is awoken centuries down the line, considering how many times the show goes on about how they can't back him up due to his complexity. Anytime he adds a ton of new subroutines to himself and glitches out, it's a story point that he can't be backed up, but that one episode... That episode's fun enough that I don't really care. Let's just say they figured it out from his mobile emitter. Good enough.
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Oct 30, 2013 13:49
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:You mean Data???? This is a facet of all television; it's because they want audiences to be able to pick up the plot by watching a five minute previously or catch sporadic episodes without their characters being majorly changed. It's the reason that once characters go to Mandyville, they aren't mentioned unless it's a special reunion episode or there's some Easter Egg referencing them. I do think, as others have said, that's stopped slightly in very recent years because of streaming options and binge-watching. But you'll notice that most of the current stuff you watch on Netflix still has a "previously" tag and tries to reset almost everything for next week's set of wacky adventures.
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Oct 30, 2013 13:57
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FlamingLiberal posted:Trek EU update: Finished a recent Voyager novel, where Q's son from Q2 brings Janeway back to life after she had been dead for several years. He ends up dead at the end of the story himself to repair damage to the fabric of the universe or something. So now in the Trek EU, all of the major characters post-TOS who have died canonically have been resurrected (Data just came back thanks to the not-dead Noonien Soong, Sisko returned from being dead, and now Janeway). The book where Data comes back is actually very good, but the recent Janeway book was mediocre. What about Trip? Is there a book that ignores or invalidates the events of These Are The Voyages... and brings him back to life? (I assume the answer is "All of them")
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Oct 30, 2013 14:46
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Hip-Hoptimus Rhyme posted:What about Trip? Is there a book that ignores or invalidates the events of These Are The Voyages... and brings him back to life? (I assume the answer is "All of them") Yes. It ends up Section 31 faked his death as they needed him to go on a mission.
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Oct 30, 2013 14:51
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The new Enterprise books are a decent read and I wish the series never got cancelled 
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Oct 30, 2013 14:59
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MikeJF posted:Later on in the show he spends three years on an alien world, integrating into their society, falling in love, and apparently adopts a son before being beamed away whoops doesn't affect him at all. Just remember those same writer thought Neelix's jealousy over Kes and Tom's friendship was a story-arc that deserved multiple episodes.
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Oct 30, 2013 15:01
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The loving creepy thing about Kes is, not only is she only a few years old because of her species' short lifespan, but she's also a child by her own people's reckoning. So Neelix really is a horrific sexual predator and then he just ends up hanging out with Naomi Wildman and the Borg Kids all day long 
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Oct 30, 2013 15:06
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I always found it odd that characters (who had repeatedly interacted with her) never mentioned that Lwaxana Troi's voice was the voice of every Federation computer.
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Oct 30, 2013 15:19
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Gonz posted:I always found it odd that characters (who had repeatedly interacted with her) never mentioned that Lwaxana Troi's voice was the voice of every Federation computer. Do you just fold your arms and glare during Superman movies?
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Oct 30, 2013 15:21
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rypakal posted:Do you just fold your arms and glare during Superman movies? Lwaxana Troi's secret identity isn't "Federation computer AI", though.
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Oct 30, 2013 15:24
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Maybe it is. She is a daughter of the Fifth House of Betazed, the Holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx, and Heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed, after all. That comes with responsibilities.
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Oct 30, 2013 15:45
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Maybe it is. She is a daughter of the Fifth House of Betazed, the Holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx, and Heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed, after all. That comes with responsibilities. The Sacred Chalice of Rixx is just an old clay pot with mold growing inside it.
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Oct 30, 2013 16:05
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hailthefish posted:Seriously, at least it's not parallel development nazi aliens or time travel nazi aliens, it's "Hey, you guys have a super violent past, THIS IS PRETTY GREAT!!!" aliens in nazi costumes. It wasn't parallel development in that episode. Some idiot professor from Earth had the idea to see if he could get an alien planet going on Nazism and turn it towards benevolent purposes. Then one of the aliens said "gently caress that" and set himself up as a behind-the-throne ruler.
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Oct 30, 2013 16:24
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Miri and Bread and Circuses were the two main parallel development episodes that I can recall. EDIT: Oh and The Omega Glory which we just discussed earlier. derp Farmer Crack-Ass fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 16:25
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:You mean Data???? Pffft, whatever, whiner. I bet you can't even post an example episode where referencing Lal would have been a meaningful contribution to the story.
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Oct 30, 2013 16:27
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The loving creepy thing about Kes is, not only is she only a few years old because of her species' short lifespan, but she's also a child by her own people's reckoning. So Neelix really is a horrific sexual predator and then he just ends up hanging out with Naomi Wildman and the Borg Kids all day long I liked how in order to show that she was finally an adult, her hair grew out and she acquired narcolepsy.
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Oct 30, 2013 16:29
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On the Vulcan version of SA, I like to imagine there are a bunch of Vulcans posting "God Sarak, that human woman is barely even 25, you loving pedo!" 
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Oct 30, 2013 17:20
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Cobalt Chloride posted:I liked how in order to show that she was finally an adult, her hair grew out and she acquired narcolepsy. And in her teenaged weeks, she got a shiny catsuit which, I guess, was later passed on to Seven.
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Oct 30, 2013 17:24
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:And in her teenaged weeks, she got a shiny catsuit which, I guess, was later passed on to Seven. Voyager is actually a much better show when you can basically skip quite a few episodes and pretend they never happened but that 7 of 9 fanservice suit still really bothers me. For most of her life shes wandering around with personal shielding, super human strength, layers of metal armor and nano weapons coursing through her veins. Then, pop, removed from the collective and they spend all this time talking about how disoriented and vulnerable she feels but yet she's still somehow just fine walking around in a giant spandex sock. They abducted her, figuratively and literally stripped her naked and that was the outfit they thought would be appropriate while she reintegrated with humanity? ugh.
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Oct 30, 2013 17:47
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hailthefish posted:Seriously, at least it's not parallel development nazi aliens The TOS episode wasn't a parallel development, it was a Starfleet officer who turned the planet's government into Nazi's (then got overthrown by an ambitious person and kept sedated) because they were more efficient and Kirk had to clean up his mess.
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Oct 30, 2013 18:29
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Gonz posted:I always found it odd that characters (who had repeatedly interacted with her) never mentioned that Lwaxana Troi's voice was the voice of every Federation computer. My favorite thing about Majel Barrett's voice as the computer is that as the franchise goes on, she ends up sounding more an more amused by the technical babble, giving her voice a kind of sarcastic edge to it. By the end, it sounds like every computer command comes with an implied "you imbecile!" as a tag. People playing multiple characters normally doesn't bother me, although it probably works a lot better for broadcast and not for binge watching. Fionnula Flanagan has such a distinct voice, so when she shows up on DS9, it is kind of like... hey, wait a minute! Weren't you just Data's Mom? Same with James Cromwell. I don't blame them for getting them back as new characters, because they're both great actors, but the double-edged sword of their being so distinct is that they're instantly recognizable.
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Oct 30, 2013 18:32
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:The loving creepy thing about Kes is, not only is she only a few years old because of her species' short lifespan, but she's also a child by her own people's reckoning. So Neelix really is a horrific sexual predator and then he just ends up hanging out with Naomi Wildman and the Borg Kids all day long Didnt they state at some point that Ocampas can only give birth to one child per lifetime? In other words, no one actually thought the idea of the species through beyond "OH THEY AGE 10 TIMES FASTER SO SHES ACTUALLY ONE YEAR OLD! HOW ALIEN!!"
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Oct 30, 2013 18:40
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1st AD posted:The TOS episode wasn't a parallel development, it was a Starfleet officer who turned the planet's government into Nazi's (then got overthrown by an ambitious person and kept sedated) because they were more efficient and Kirk had to clean up his mess. Wasn't a Starfleet officer, was just some dipshit Earth historian.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:16
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Nutsngum posted:Didnt they state at some point that Ocampas can only give birth to one child per lifetime? The Alien's lifecycle is probably more realistic and makes more sense than the Ocampa's.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:26
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Is it one Ocampa to one baby each (slow decrease in population from accidents) or each Ocampan couple having only one baby between them (the population halving every generation)??? Both are very stupid.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:29
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Bicyclops posted:My favorite thing about Majel Barrett's voice as the computer is that as the franchise goes on, she ends up sounding more an more amused by the technical babble, giving her voice a kind of sarcastic edge to it. By the end, it sounds like every computer command comes with an implied "you imbecile!" as a tag. It is never a double edge sword when it is Jeffrey Combs 
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Oct 30, 2013 19:33
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Wasn't a Starfleet officer, was just some dipshit Earth historian.  Humanities majors still loving things up in the 23rd century!
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Oct 30, 2013 19:40
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Wowbagger2004 posted:Is it one Ocampa to one baby each (slow decrease in population from accidents) or each Ocampan couple having only one baby between them (the population halving every generation)??? Uh, unless the men have babies, one baby per Ocampan is still one baby per heterosexual couple.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:41
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1st AD posted:
The only other historian we saw was the one who betrayed them to bang Khan. Star Trek hates historians.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:45
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bobkatt013 posted:The only other historian we saw was the one who betrayed them to bang Khan. Star Trek hates historians. Dr. Whalen in The Big Goodbye. He even survives the gunshot wound.
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Oct 30, 2013 19:47
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