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Contessa's power tell her what she needs to do, the details that get filled depends on what question she's asking. She can speak English/alien without even knowing the language, and her power was used to process the formula, that didn't mean they turned out perfectly. She even acknowledges that, the flawed future sight is what caused the thinker to suicide herself, and it's why she kept Doctor around to act as a filter for her and help cover her blind spots. It's sort of like how Dinah works best when other people asks her questions. She's also further constrained by her powers not working against the thinker and Scion, which could very well apply to the endbringers like she said.
Algid fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 03:20
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Posting this for the new page just in case. Wild rear end theory time. What would be a better way for the Worms to solve their problems of stagnant evolution and inevitable overpopulation than the borrowed adaptation that Eden and Zion went with? How about Competition? How about you create a new race (or alter an existing one), that can compete with your own (you being a Worm in this case) for space and resources, and not just compete, but compete directly. Would that work, creating a worthy foe? You'd introduce evolutionary pressure, and assuming neither species can completely gain the upper hand on the other, or that they would choose to not compete, you'd have a method of keeping both groups populations in check. But how would one jump-start this process? the Worms are so very much more powerful than (as far as we know) anything else in all of existence, actually getting to the point that your creation could compete without getting eliminated would be a long shot. Unless of course, if you find a method of granting this species power to compare to the Worms own.
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Oct 30, 2013 03:35
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I don't know that the Endbringers would be good competition for the worms, considering Zion didn't seem to have much trouble killing all the endbringers combined there at the end, minus the Simurgh
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Oct 30, 2013 04:02
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I'm defiantly in favor of Taylor being alive. The ending is far too fatalistic if she's dead. She went through too much to just end up as a loving corpse.
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Oct 30, 2013 04:09
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TOOT BOOT posted:I don't know that the Endbringers would be good competition for the worms, considering Zion didn't seem to have much trouble killing all the endbringers combined there at the end, minus the Simurgh The Endbringers wouldn't be the "competition".
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Oct 30, 2013 04:16
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NecroMonster posted:The more I try to convince myself that Taylor is dead the less and less I am able to. Contessa can as good as read Taylor's mind "Didn’t deserve to, either way." is the answer that she got, and it's at least to Taylor, an honest one. It's also very indicative of Taylor's self doubt and self questioning. Then you have the two bullets, and The Simurgh. If the Simurgh wanted Taylor dead, she wouldn't have fired a blow-dryer at Taylor, let alone a blow-dryer that Taylor dodged, she could have easily used her Telekinetic abilities and her amazingly powerful senses to kill Taylor then and there, but she didn't. Instead she seems to have altered Taylor's course to point her toward Glaistig. So either Taylor is alive, or the meeting with Taylor was used as a method of effecting Contessa somehow. I'm pretty much with you on this one. There are parallels with the Echidna encounter, in which a person uses their shard, becomes subsumed by it and needs to be dealt with. Noelle at the end gives in and the shard bears out her memories and perceived injustices while speaking with Sundancer and stating its purpose; it is consumed with eating everyone in the world and making them pay. Noelle were she in her right mind wouldn't purposefully do such a thing, but her shard would. There's no Noelle left, no humanity or morality. Taylor meanwhile uses her shard in much the same way that Noelle did and that extensive use coupled with mental and physical damages eventually gives control to the shard. It immediately perceives the world in much the same way as Echidna did, through how to achieve the goals of peace, cooperation, control. Things proceed, but during the encounter with G.U., in a moment of conflict between host and passenger, the remaining members of her swarm are freed, whether by the shard being convinced by Taylor or Taylor wresting control back I don't know. At the end Taylor is lost, confused, and most importantly introspective and regretful. I don't see that as anything but human and is in keeping with Taylor's personality. Potential S-class threat which needs to be dealt with for the greater good is understandable, but I just see a different divergence here which makes the turn towards Taylor simply being killed wholly unnecessary. The two bullets issue is laid to rest when the S9 clones are given as an example of Contessa previously double tapping. The part I question is why was the second bullets purpose stated as being to prevent pain? I don't understand that. What's the point? There's maybe a second before the second bullet is fired and she'd be dead regardless. NecroMonster posted:And why create so drat much ambiguity at Taylor's fate at the end if there is no chance that she actually survived. Agreed wholeheartedly. True, there are six installments left and anything could happen, but this was billed as being 'The End' and should be totally unambiguous.
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Oct 30, 2013 09:13
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Fellwenner posted:The two bullets issue is laid to rest when the S9 clones are given as an example of Contessa previously double tapping. The part I question is why was the second bullets purpose stated as being to prevent pain? I don't understand that. What's the point? There's maybe a second before the second bullet is fired and she'd be dead regardless.
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Oct 30, 2013 09:29
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Fellwenner posted:Agreed wholeheartedly. True, there are six installments left and anything could happen, but this was billed as being 'The End' and should be totally unambiguous. It is. That folks are sad about it, or that an author can do things like say "gotcha! the dead body wasn't actually dead, it was just foolin'!" does not make this any more ambiguous. Because it's not.
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Oct 30, 2013 12:45
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I guess we disagree for now. What I'm referring to in this regard is the newest name that Contessa gave her and its meaning, plus the wording of the small two bullets paragraph. I don't think either are clear cut, although I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it turns out to be nothing at all.
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Oct 30, 2013 12:49
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Fellwenner posted:I guess we disagree for now. What I'm referring to in this regard is the newest name that Contessa gave her and its meaning, plus the wording of the small two bullets paragraph. I don't think either are clear cut, although I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it turns out to be nothing at all. Fair enough. In my mind the reference in the name is 1. Kind of like how the smurf gets a couple names in different languages and 2. Referring to the rest of everyone, not to her. I don't think the bullets are ambiguous at all but am fine agreeing to disagree on that. The other sort of meta issue I have is that this is a story where everything is just getting worse forever and then all of a sudden voila, she's ok and lives happily ever after with her pals just doesn't jive with where the story arc's been going. This is far more heroic tragedy, I think, than everyone walks into the sunset happily ever after.
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Oct 30, 2013 15:17
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I was kinda hoping she would be the new end-bringer level threat in the sequel, a dimension hopping mind controller snapping up capes for ~something~ and all put into motion by the simurgh 
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Oct 30, 2013 15:24
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Yeah, the more I think about it... The more I'll be hugely disappointed if that is unambiguously the end of Taylor. It's too loving nihilistic, her final thoughts at the end of 30.7 are those of a depressed and emotionally exhausted young woman. There's no catharsis, it just feels like a recent trauma victim getting double tapped for no good reason. And that idea that Contessa, who was at least as horrible as Taylor and ineffective to boot, would be the one of off her is majorly unsatisfying. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 16:59
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Skippy McPants posted:Yeah, the more I think about it...
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Oct 30, 2013 17:08
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Skippy McPants posted:Yeah, the more I think about it... Ending a chapter (or whatever you call these sections) earlier would have been better if she's actually dead. She's used up everything of herself in the fight; her body is failing, her ability to communicate is long gone and her mind is fading. With Scion gone it seemed like that was the last thing holding her together.
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Oct 30, 2013 17:19
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Algid posted:The undersiders didn't buy their powers but they were still one of Cauldron's primary plans, powerful clairvoyants all knew that to some degree. Dinah obviously knew, one of the earlier interludes had Cauldron discussing Coil and the undersiders, and Accord was trying to help them along in some way during his interlude. So Contessa is probably at least partially responsible for how Taylor turned out. I think the interaction between Contessa and Taylor at the end there makes it pretty clear just how little Contessa actually feels she accomplished and how much she resents how blase Taylor is about the threat Scion posed. Contessa more or less turned herself into a monster in the hope of stopping Scion and Taylor was all just "Nope, maybe if you'd been less of a horrible waste of a person it could have all gone different, oh well." Taylor on the other hand turned herself into much less of a monster and did stop Scion. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Oct 30, 2013 |
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Oct 30, 2013 17:20
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Mr. Fowl posted:Ending a chapter (or whatever you call these sections) earlier would have been better if she's actually dead. She's used up everything of herself in the fight; her body is failing, her ability to communicate is long gone and her mind is fading. With Scion gone it seemed like that was the last thing holding her together. This. I'm fine with Taylor dying, but giving us an entire extra section where her failed predecessor taunts her and has the temerity to sit in judgement when Taylor is in a state of physical and emotional disintegration is just pointlessly cruel.
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Oct 30, 2013 17:23
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Skippy McPants posted:I think the interaction between Contessa and Taylor at the end there makes it pretty clear just how little Contessa actually feels she accomplished and how much she resents how blase Taylor is about the threat Scion posed.
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Oct 30, 2013 17:29
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Algid posted:Contessa's power gave an output to a particular input, if you don't ask the right question, you could end up suiciding yourself like the thinker did.
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Oct 30, 2013 18:15
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Skippy McPants posted:This. I'm fine with Taylor dying, but giving us an entire extra section where her failed predecessor taunts her and has the temerity to sit in judgement when Taylor is in a state of physical and emotional disintegration is just pointlessly cruel. I think we have been reading different things. I'm reading worm: it gets worse  . How about you?
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Oct 30, 2013 19:03
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Taylor being dead also means everything Taylor believed and fought for was a lie. If humanity cannot do one drat good thing, cannot look past their own lovely problems and desires to help one lonely and scared girl, what the gently caress hope do they have for the future at all? I can't help but feel that it'll be right back to terrorizing and abusing itself in the blink of an eye, if it isn't even willing or able to do this small thing. It'd be "worm: doing the wrong things for honestly really lovely reasons". I mean it seriously, why the gently caress save Humanity?
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Oct 30, 2013 21:13
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They did want to help. That's why they didn't just loving kill her whilst she was spark out. Contessa psychoanalysing her was the attempt to see if she COULD be saved, and barring any bullet-based-brain-surgery shenanigans, it seems the conclusion was 'no'. Taylor felt she didn't deserve it, also, I'd guess, that she wouldn't be able to take back control from the shard. Also, it really fits Taylor's whole thing of doing bad things for the greater good - killing Taylor is bad, sure, but the greater good is served by not having humanity entirely controlled by an alien intelligence hell bent on order and peace at all costs.
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Oct 30, 2013 21:29
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thespaceinvader posted:Also, it really fits Taylor's whole thing of doing bad things for the greater good - killing Taylor is bad, sure, but the greater good is served by not having humanity entirely controlled by an alien intelligence hell bent on order and peace at all costs. Kind of like the Worms really, though approached from the opposite direction. Peace and order brings stagnation even as unlimited conflict brings waste and destruction. The key is always in the middle ground.
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Oct 30, 2013 22:28
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thespaceinvader posted:They did want to help. That's why they didn't just loving kill her whilst she was spark out. Considering that the answer Taylor gave to Contessa's final question wasn't consistent with her shard being in control, and is consistent with Taylor's primary anchor, if Contessa did kill Taylor, she did it off of either bad information, or for some other reason.
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Oct 30, 2013 22:58
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NecroMonster posted:Taylor being dead also means everything Taylor believed and fought for was a lie. If humanity cannot do one drat good thing, cannot look past their own lovely problems and desires to help one lonely and scared girl, what the gently caress hope do they have for the future at all? I can't help but feel that it'll be right back to terrorizing and abusing itself in the blink of an eye, if it isn't even willing or able to do this small thing. It'd be "worm: doing the wrong things for honestly really lovely reasons". Again, this. Taylor was in no state to be defending herself from the kind of accusations Contessa was making. She needed help, and she got a bullet in the brain. It undermines Taylor's entire arc if at the end of it all there's not even an ounce of compassion for someone as broken as her. Contessa having the power to "see" things doesn't really men jack poo poo. We've already seen just how wrong she's capable of being, whatever power she has. builds character posted:I think we have been reading different things. I'm reading worm: it gets worse Except this isn't the Grapes of Wrath, and I expect some kind of resolution other than "everything will be lovely forever, nothing you did mattered."
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Oct 30, 2013 23:45
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Skippy McPants posted:Again, this. Taylor was in no state to be defending herself from the kind of accusations Contessa was making. She needed help, and she got a bullet in the brain. It undermines Taylor's entire arc if at the end of it all there's not even an ounce of compassion for someone as broken as her. Contessa having the power to "see" things doesn't really men jack poo poo. We've already seen just how wrong she's capable of being, whatever power she has. She did save literally every earth in all the worlds from permanent destruction and (single-handedly) defeated an aeons-old eldritch horror from beyond space and time, so she's got that going for her.
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Oct 30, 2013 23:49
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builds character posted:She did save literally every earth in all the worlds from permanent destruction and (single-handedly) defeated an aeons-old eldritch horror from beyond space and time, so she's got that going for her. And all she got for it was some snide commentary and a bullet in the brain. I think what really troubles me about having things end like this is that it reads too much like suicide. Taylor, bereft of a mission for the first time in her adult life is rudderless. She's cornered, powerless, emotionally drained and doesn't want or feel like she deserves help. She essentially consents to being mercy killed. Considering her past that's deeply troubling for a whole mess'o reasons. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 31, 2013 00:09
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Skippy McPants posted:And all she got for it was some snide commentary and a bullet in the brain. The more I think about it, the more I think/hope that the next chapter, the interlude to this arc, is from Taylor's perspective as she's witnessing her shard save the day. IF Contessa just killed her, then it seems like the only way to really get closure on her story. And it seems kind of poetic, since (in my opinion) this entire arc has been narrated by the shard and not Taylor. I am rereading all of Speck and it really does read to me that shard and Taylor are slowly separating. The narrator is constantly mentioning that emotions seem distant, and Panacea specifically mentions that the shard is cut off from Taylor's emotions now. Anyhow, if that is the case, getting to re-see the events of Speck with Taylor's reactions would go a long way towards making a satisfying ending. I am starting to believe that Contessa did kill her, though. And if it's not Taylor narrating the last interlude, I freaking hope it is Tattletale. She's the only person who might have an inkling of what exactly Taylor went through and how she would have reacted.
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Oct 31, 2013 00:35
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I just want Dragon to give Taylor that hug that she so wanted. Why couldn't it end like that? Also, what was Contessa doing to not be controlled by Taylor. I think Contessa said she had some kind of protection or something, or does Contessa's I Win power just negate Taylor's mind control area effect.
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Oct 31, 2013 01:14
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Taylor's power is just a power. It's not even that unique, other capes can control peoples. Taylor just had the ingenuity and resources to cheat her way into near omniscience. All Contessa would have to do is ask, "How do I avoid being controlled by Taylor?" And then do that. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 31, 2013 01:17
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AgentHaiTo posted:I just want Dragon to give Taylor that hug that she so wanted. Why couldn't it end like that?
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Oct 31, 2013 01:36
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The big difference there is really that she was controlling herself with her power, when her power has been unleashed from her will.
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Oct 31, 2013 06:23
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Ra has updated to resolve the previous cliffhanger (and some mysteries) in Scrap Brain Zone.
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Oct 31, 2013 07:22
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WOW. I started reading this like a month ago and finally caught up. It was a hell of a ride. Taylor has come so far. I never would have imagined the story moving in the direction it dad based on its beginning. Quite the journey.
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Oct 31, 2013 07:51
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There's something that bugs me about Contessa. Why doesn't she ever build tinker devices? She could ask her power for the path to making a such a device. If she had copied some of Dodge's work (tinker that makes devices for accessing pocket dimensions) then she would have escaped easily when the Irregulars were attacking. Or, if the goal is to make an army, why doesn't she use cloning? She could copy Blasto's work (cloning specialist). You can't force trigger events, but you can clone many people and give them the same power, which seems just as good. I also get the sense that Contessa doesn't solve things in the easiest way. For example, when she rescues Pretender, why didn't she just make a portal into the room where Pretender was held? If it's an issue of the rooms being filled by containment foam by an automated security system, that could be rectified by cutting the building's power or hacking into it. None of the prison cells have bars/doors on them, instead relying on Custodian. Cauldron's building (which is also a single point of failure with no redundancies) has zero defenses beyond being inaccessible. How hard would it be to rig up some automated turrets, charges that could collapse hallways, or other traps? Cauldron seems to make a habit of getting incredibly powerful capes, then screwing themselves by making them into single points of failure. thorf fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 31, 2013 08:22
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She didn't ask. That's the entire thing that drives Cauldron's mistakes. It only works if you ask the right questions, and it's incredibly easy to get exactly what you asked for, destroying what you truly needed. And Contessa never learned to make decisions unassisted either, deep down she's still the kid who got the walkthrough for the whole world.
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Oct 31, 2013 08:36
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^ Contessa's fatal flaw is a lack of imagination. Not a shocker considering her power.
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Oct 31, 2013 12:26
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Yeah, you could REALLY see it when Cauldron eliminates uncertainty from the situation whenever they can. It's ALL to ensure that they can carry out the steps that Contessa plotted out, even if they don't know why it works, and can't account for the prescience-blind factors, such as Scion, some Strangers, the Endbringers or Eidolon, as well as being unable to consider the effects of compounded precognition messing everything up. Neither Doctor Mother nor Contessa are really qualified to deal with the management demands honestly.
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Oct 31, 2013 12:43
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If Taylor had gotten Contessa's power the entire story would have been about two chapters long. I love that the moment she realizes she's got a hugely useful power with a major limitation (range) her first reaction is to think up a way to cheat.
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Oct 31, 2013 12:54
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^^ She's already done that long ago too. Clockblocker had a hugely useful power which a negligible range. She used that.
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Oct 31, 2013 13:09
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 Clockblocker The body count in this story is staggering.
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Oct 31, 2013 18:43
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