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I personally thought Rhino's critiques were hilarious and helpful, so thanks for the laughs and advice. But then again it looks like s/he liked my story more than most, so I could see myself being discouraged if the criticisms directed at me had been more harsh.
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Oct 28, 2013 20:19
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I know that Rhino has spent many many hours on those crits, he probably made them funny to keep himself sane. Also consider if you get a really harsh crit, you probably deserve it. If people are put off writing by the "threat" of someone spending a lot of time to give a helpful (if harsh) critique, then they probably shouldn't be writing in the first place. Anyone can improve drastically at writing by sticking with it: if you are a new writer and you are torn apart, you now know what to focus on the next time you write. If you are a new writer and you are told that something you wrote--which really wasn't good at all--is going to be put into an anthology for sale, then maybe you will just keep writing the way you did without improving. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Oct 28, 2013 |
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Oct 28, 2013 20:22
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Good points, and I do hope that my gratitude came across - Rhino actually clarified something for me that's been a long time coming. I know that took a lot of time and effort, and I appreciate it.
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Oct 28, 2013 21:07
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Well drat, Rhino, you've got me thinking I shouldn't be scared of Thunderdome anymore.
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Oct 28, 2013 21:17
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systran posted:I know that Rhino has spent many many hours on those crits, he probably made them funny to keep himself sane. But I don't agree with your last comment. The contest was never pitched as a way to get a short story published, and Goonreads encourages honest critique and writing improvement--always has. So to suggest otherwise seems off-base. During the submission stage, the anthology was just an idea--an after-thought due to some feedback from a contest survey that went out last summer. It's still just mostly an idea, though before or if it becomes a reality, authors said that they wanted critique and wanted to work on their stories first, so I built a site last week to accomplish that. It allows authors to keep a working draft on site (if they want to) as well as to receive comments and suggestions.
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Oct 28, 2013 21:30
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I'll admit that the critique hurt me a little, but I'm remarkably thin-skinned, and even now I'm mostly over it. Plus it's the first time I've had such scathing remarks directed toward me and my work. Either way, I definitely recognize the intent of it, and am really thankful for it. I agree that there are a lot of flaws that I need to figure out how to fix, and I welcome more comments to help me actually do it. However, I need to ask if those chunks you pulled out and displayed on their own are examples of things you particularly liked, or things you thought were especially awful. Given the tone of the rest of the critique I assumed the latter, but would like clarification. I didn't go into this thinking it was going to get published at the end, and even if that does happen, I would pull my story out if I can't get it to be a piece that's actually worth the time it takes to read, which it definitely isn't now. Sorry if this is completely out of place or whiny sounding, but I needed to get it off my chest.
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Oct 28, 2013 22:03
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I thought I was gonna be a bit bummed with the comments, but in the end everything was quite fair. I think some of the things that were pointed out as weak areas, were things that I struggled with. It gives me some foundation to go back and make some of the bigger changes. So, good times all around.
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Oct 28, 2013 22:52
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I have written the crits for those of you who entered the competition and you will just have to take them and bite your tongue and have your ego torn out a little. I really enjoyed that and got a good laugh reading it. Maybe I cringed a little but my ego is unscathed enough for me to go on pursuing creative endeavors; which is a good thing? Thanks for taking the time to read my story. Obviously it wasn't my objective, but I'll take ridicule over apathy any day! (or even apathetic ridicule) Better to be talked about than yadda yadda and all that. I'm claiming Aperture Breach.
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Oct 29, 2013 03:34
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You know, I've always been a fairly withdrawn sort of person, but that hardly helps me when I'm trying to get my name out there. So gently caress it. Just registered at Goonreads under my forum name. Thanks in advance.
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Oct 29, 2013 06:36
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Desmond posted:Oh, don't get me wrong. I do think your critiques can be useful. I think a lot of effort went into them and am happy you volunteered them. That's fair. I actually was about 75%-80% done by the time I noticed you had put up the editorial site, and I thought about putting it there at first but decided to go ahead with the googledocs because it was something I already had prepared. Next time if I do do this large scale crit again, I'll definitely consider that. And like what systran said, a major reason for the humour was to keep myself sane - it is also the same way I critique stuff in the Thunderdome threads so perhaps my being accustomed to that style may have ruffled a few feathers, to which I apologise. I hope nobody's that upset over what I had to say, although I do think harsh critique is useful to allow people to understand how an independent third party react to their writing - I've personally had that a few times and they are infinitely more useful than "you're the most beautiful rhino" or "I AM GOING TO CHANGE YOUR AVATAR". Also I'm not going to apologise for doing "0/10 kawaiis" because I have a juvenile sense of humour and I thought long and hard to write unique ones for everyone ok. If any author does think "The Saddest Rhino is a massive rear end in a top hat and he deserves to be punished" or "I'm going to sit in this corner and draw pictures of rhinos being stabbed" then you can show me up by improving or doing well! I've seen people I crit to the ground come out with amazing writing after and it's a great thing to see. Also, it's absolutely ok to disagree with what I have to say. After all, the creative process should be one that invites discussion between reader and creator and if there's no two-way communication, than it would be tougher for the creator to understand their strengths and weaknesses. workingdogv1 posted:Okay, trying to be as straightforward as possible here, but my mind is going in several different directions at once while I sift through the critique for usable bits. I don't personally have issues with the comments, but I have enough critique group experience to separate my ego from the story. Some things work, some clearly don't. I saw spots where I agreed with what you were saying and others where I didn't. Sometimes a detail or story may not just click with someone for whatever reason, and sometimes an idea is just too big for a short story. I'm certainly guilty of the latter. (For the record, Luisa Cruz was mine.) subjectively speaking I would say I may have been a little too harsh on your story, largely because (as you saw in my crit) I was getting tired of obtuseness and may have mistaken the mystery in your writing as that. I suspect what you disagree most would be my comment on Luisa's brother, which I still think could be handled a bit better if it can be more clearly determined if the event was localised or worldwide. However, I think you do creepiness really well and you definitely have a good knack for horror, and all in all I did like the story, just some glaring pieces which I didn't care for. Drunk Tomato posted:I personally thought Rhino's critiques were hilarious and helpful, so thanks for the laughs and advice. But then again it looks like s/he liked my story more than most, so I could see myself being discouraged if the criticisms directed at me had been more harsh. My greatest issue with your story was how the redneck became spring-heeled Swamp Thing, and I was hoping the two evil science nerds would have a bit more development other than being killed immediately. It took me a second read to realise the field he was in likely contributed to what happened to him, but it read more like a foreshadowing than an explanation to the mystery. mikeycp posted:I agree that there are a lot of flaws that I need to figure out how to fix, and I welcome more comments to help me actually do it. However, I need to ask if those chunks you pulled out and displayed on their own are examples of things you particularly liked, or things you thought were especially awful. Given the tone of the rest of the critique I assumed the latter, but would like clarification. Unfortunately I posted those quotes to note passages that "don't work", so your concerns were correct. Your story was fine, but I think the main issue lies in the writing style. The voice of the character definitely needs work, and if you have employed a more, say, lyrical or fairy-tale-like style, the story would have worked a lot better. I can't think of anything right now, but I seem to recall Gaiman's Dream Hunters book being very close to what you are going out for in this story. You should definitely still keep the story for the compilation, I don't really see it being "not worth the time it takes to read" but it could use some improvement. Roydrowsy posted:I thought I was gonna be a bit bummed with the comments, but in the end everything was quite fair. I think some of the things that were pointed out as weak areas, were things that I struggled with. It gives me some foundation to go back and make some of the bigger changes. So, good times all around. Your story actually gave me one of my favourite typos ("John made a sorrowful sorrow") so kudos for that. I think your foreshadowing on how everything was wrong (because evil science nerd is in hell) was a little too overblown and made it so that I focused more on the writing than the actual story itself, which may be why I was so displaced when the revelation occurred. I did like everything from the child killing onwards though so that was p. cool. xenocratic posted:I really enjoyed that and got a good laugh reading it. Maybe I cringed a little but my ego is unscathed enough for me to go on pursuing creative endeavors; which is a good thing? Thanks for taking the time to read my story. Obviously it wasn't my objective, but I'll take ridicule over apathy any day! (or even apathetic ridicule) Better to be talked about than yadda yadda and all that. I'm claiming Aperture Breach. I think I went on your story a bit harsher so I apologise if you feel I'm personally insulting you the whole time (that's not my intent!). The perspective shifts were definitely a major issue and the toddler's voice needs some work, because as it is now he sounds way too much like a working adult. Your story was definitely pretty entertaining (since I never expected Aperture to be a GHOST MOM although I still cannot figure out what kind of experiment would cause that) so please don't give up on pursuing those endeavours! The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Oct 29, 2013 |
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Oct 29, 2013 08:12
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I actually took your critique as a punch in the face (as noted in the GBS thread) before I actually sat down and read what you wrote. I get critiques a lot as I have to create content a lot. This was one of the harshest ones I've gotten despite the humor thrown in. Don't worry, I did get the jokes and the messages. Besides, I don't think anything can top my boss flat out asking me "Do you have any friends? You sound like an emotionless robot." whenever I was trying to read something. He was apparently trying to get me to talk like I was talking to them. In reality it just kind of shook me up. For some back story, I wrote the Miranda Project: Michael. I get that it wasn't the most unique concept but it's something that I had fun writing. The Miranda Project is actually a collection of short stories that I thought about making revolving around EVIL SCIENCE NERDS and the like. The project started by a few scientists that turned serial killer or what have you and tried to create the perfect woman by collecting different parts of different women. The reason scientists is because they were trying to keep 'it' alive, and not just some sewn up decomposing real doll. Eventually the research and hosed up poo poo they do get real results in terms of being able to change appearances and features based on what 'formula' is injected into the person. I haven't hashed out the details for the entire thing, but it wasn't completely about a sex change. I also understand that I may have tried to drop too many hints as opposed letting things breathe. Having a mirror would have improved it for sure. I do agree with that. I could explain the hosed up face and all of that. It would have made it a lot more feasible. I guess that's the biggest issue with trying to be subtle. It's like pancakes I guess. A little bit is ok, but too much and you just want to vomit. I disagree with the amnesia comment. I actually have experience with this. My friends and I were out doing stupid things and one of them ended up hitting his head really hard falling off of a car. He couldn't remember his name, he couldn't remember where he was. I didn't believe him, nor did the rest of my friends who were there. We eventually took him to the hospital, where they did say he had a case of amnesia. The reason we didn't believe him is he kept repeating "I never thought I'd have amnesia." So, it's not like I was just trying to make things up. Believe that or don't, it's a critique on me, I'm giving you what thought process I had. This was the first time I had tried to write anything in the first person. I'm a broadcaster, so when I have to piece together a script, it's usually short and to the point. I think I've only tried to write one more time in life for a novelette or something. It's unfinished right now, but it's in the hopper. I like the concept and I was told that if I didn't at least attempt to write it that the idea was going to be stolen from me by my friend and author. Forced profanity? I guess it's more of a mirror image of how I actually speak. I do use a lot of profanity when there isn't a microphone around me (which is probably going to bite me in the rear end one day). So, if my coarse language offended you or it comes off as forced, I will try to dial it back next time. I'm definitely not butt hurt about this. You made some valid points. I have plans to eventually publish a book or collection of short stories. I think the problem I'm coming up with mainly is trying to hard to stretch things out. My profession leads you to trim out the fat of sentences, try to get your word count down as low as possible to take up less time. So if you have some advice on how I can stretch things out, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm not discouraged. You can't pick yourself up and learn from your mistakes if someone doesn't knock you the gently caress out first. As far as the winning story. I voted for it, it was great. I really enjoyed the concept and execution.
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Oct 29, 2013 11:42
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The Saddest Rhino posted:That's fair. I actually was about 75%-80% done by the time I noticed you had put up the editorial site, and I thought about putting it there at first but decided to go ahead with the googledocs because it was something I already had prepared. Next time if I do do this large scale crit again, I'll definitely consider that. Yes! This is a very important point and why it's so important to disengage ego from story. I've had crits that had me thinking I was a miserable failure and had no business even trying to put my work out there (note, however, that even then I didn't plan to stop writing totally). Hell, you may never ever get over being upset upon first receiving a harsh critique. That's not unusual, and it can be very instructive to sit with that unhappiness and come back stronger. My second novel just about ground me to dust with all its flaws, but I managed to bounce back after every knockdown and eventually turn it into something that's received pretty good reviews. The Saddest Rhino posted:subjectively speaking I would say I may have been a little too harsh on your story, largely because (as you saw in my crit) I was getting tired of obtuseness and may have mistaken the mystery in your writing as that. I suspect what you disagree most would be my comment on Luisa's brother, which I still think could be handled a bit better if it can be more clearly determined if the event was localised or worldwide. However, I think you do creepiness really well and you definitely have a good knack for horror, and all in all I did like the story, just some glaring pieces which I didn't care for. Well thanks! It is good to get a carrot every now and then with the stick. But I actually agree with the brother critique, for the most part. I had intended that his death be unconnected to what's happening to Luisa and show the global scope of what's happening, that this being can reach through to any place on the planet and pull through the essence of a dead person. I know you were tired by the time you read the story, but that should have been clear as day and obviously I didn't make the connection strongly enough. And I think the idea of starting the story after the quake is actually fantastic. The longer intro is a relic of being primarily a long-form writer, I think, and having more space to develop character. No, my only real quibble was when it came to the EVIL SCIENCE NERD Dr. Edelberg. I think this might just be a difference of opinion over the character's nature. I never really intended him to be evil or sinister, just kind of screwed-up, pathetic, and in way over his head. Re-reading it I still feel like that comes through, but I think I can also see how he might read as a generic "he-bad" mad scientist. I honestly wasn't enamored with the prompt, either, and tried to work around it, but I think Random Stranger did a much better job of circumventing it. Anyway, whole lot of words and I'd like to have run it through my critique group but didn't have time. I'm eyeing thunderdome now, though...
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Oct 29, 2013 14:09
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Soulex posted:For some back story, I wrote the Miranda Project: Michael. I get that it wasn't the most unique concept but it's something that I had fun writing. The Miranda Project is actually a collection of short stories that I thought about making revolving around EVIL SCIENCE NERDS and the like. The project started by a few scientists that turned serial killer or what have you and tried to create the perfect woman by collecting different parts of different women. The reason scientists is because they were trying to keep 'it' alive, and not just some sewn up decomposing real doll. Eventually the research and hosed up poo poo they do get real results in terms of being able to change appearances and features based on what 'formula' is injected into the person. Michael being part of a series may have actually hurt your story a little, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't submit something that you intend to be part of a series. I believe it could be that the intrigue left in your story (that the Miranda project is not explained at all) may not be enough to actually attract the attention needed, and for this, you may want to consider actually dropping some hint as to what it could be in order for a reader to consider picking up more of your work. With reference to the Miranda Project, I was left wondering "what it was", rather than "what it could be". I'm not entirely sure I disagreed about the amnesiac condition? I thought about why I zoomed in on suggesting there was forced profanity, and I wonder if it's because I didn't find the voice of the protagonist convincing. He acts "confused little boy" one second, and the next he's going "loving soldiers hurrrr jocks" the next. There seems to be a lack of consistency, and the profanities actually highlight them more. I don't have an issue with it, but that it made the uneven voice of the protagonist more striking. I'm not great with how to actually stretch things out, but feel free to pop in at the fiction advice thread, where we don't secretly hate each other! workingdogv1 posted:No, my only real quibble was when it came to the EVIL SCIENCE NERD Dr. Edelberg. I think this might just be a difference of opinion over the character's nature. I never really intended him to be evil or sinister, just kind of screwed-up, pathetic, and in way over his head. Re-reading it I still feel like that comes through, but I think I can also see how he might read as a generic "he-bad" mad scientist. I probably didn't make it clear, but I actually did see him as a pathetic little fellow who thinks he's smarter than he really is, and got caught way too deep into all the crazy. So despite me calling him an EVIL SCIENCE NERD, I think you actually achieved that! I was kinda using EVIL SCIENCE NERD as a catchall for all the scientists in all the stories so that may have contributed to the confusion. Plus yes join thunderdome and prove your worth 
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Oct 29, 2013 14:42
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Michael being part of a series may have actually hurt your story a little, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't submit something that you intend to be part of a series. I believe it could be that the intrigue left in your story (that the Miranda project is not explained at all) may not be enough to actually attract the attention needed, and for this, you may want to consider actually dropping some hint as to what it could be in order for a reader to consider picking up more of your work. With reference to the Miranda Project, I was left wondering "what it was", rather than "what it could be". I'll give it a look over. Thanks. I recognize a lot of the advice and I am one of those drunks that weave in and out of tenses often. And I don't hate anyone, except Tom Cruise. gently caress that guy. I realize where starting with Michael was weak. It was the melding of one earlier idea and the one inspired by the prompts. I purposely didn't go into detail about what the project was because it was meant to be in the middle of the story series. If you still think it's weak after that I will overhaul it massively. It was also meant to leave on a cliff hanger as a stand alone. The people I had read it before I submitted it had mentioned that it just ends with no finite conclusion. That was the direction I really wanted to take. I wanted to give the reader the desire to keep reading, but it seems that I had the opposite effect. I misinterpreted your comment about amnesia maybe. I wasn't sure if the amnesia bit was because some other people were using it, or if it just fit that typical TV show vibe. Ah! So that's what the main thing was. I was trying to convey that he was becoming more coherent and was trying to fill the role of Paulson more. I guess I need to be more convincing. I also forgot to mention that QRF is the abbreviation for Quick Reaction Force in military circles. Looking back, I don't know why I thought Michael should know that. Character development is something I am working desperately on. I've even made a little bio for some of the people in another book that I have so I don't get confused and can better relate the character. My main goal is to make something enjoyable to read. I don't care if it becomes a national best seller or gets turned into a movie. I enjoyed reading books as a child, and continue that now. I'm currently re-reading a few books that aren't there for inspiration, just to relive the joy I had following a character and what ever plot he gets stuck in. Anywhere from Dean Koontz to William C Dietz. I have about 10,000 words written for the main project I am working on right now. I'd like to have some people look it over and let me know what I should focus on or if I should just scrap the whole thing and try again.
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Oct 29, 2013 15:25
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I signed up for Goonreads and was told to post here with very little other instruction. I hope this promotes me to a contributor.
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Oct 30, 2013 18:14
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FamousThomas posted:I signed up for Goonreads and was told to post here with very little other instruction. I hope this promotes me to a contributor. I just promoted you. Registration is simple: register at the site and post here. Other than that, there's really nothing else to do to become a contributor. As far as how to submit books, there's quite a bit of instruction at the site as well as a FAQs section. If you need help with anything, let me know.
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Oct 30, 2013 21:08
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It would seem that I put my email in incorrectly since I didn't actually get an email. I made a new user with the correct email. Sorry, could you do that again? FamousThomas fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Oct 31, 2013 |
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Oct 31, 2013 00:45
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Rhino did such a good job with these critiques I almost feel the ones I'm preparing are redundant! Any chance you'd be willing to do this for future contests? (Not that I'm not still going to give my critiques a shot, it's just taking a while.)
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Oct 31, 2013 07:04
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Flesnolk posted:Rhino did such a good job with these critiques I almost feel the ones I'm preparing are redundant! Any chance you'd be willing to do this for future contests? Having more than one critique can't be anything but good. I'd like to see what stood out for you for my story if anything.
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Oct 31, 2013 08:29
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workingdogv1 posted:I honestly wasn't enamored with the prompt, either, and tried to work around it, but I think Random Stranger did a much better job of circumventing it. My original concept was that the thing that escaped was hope from Pandora's box so humanity was falling into despair and killing themselves, but I couldn't come up with a character and angle that would plant that firmly in the horror genre. Saddest Rhino, I completely agree with almost everything you said about me. The beginning is definitely too slow but I was having trouble working out a way to bring in the threat and integrate the writing prompt as the inciting incident. At this point I'd toss out and rewrite the first two pages from square one to making things more menacing. The only thing I disagree with you on is the ending. I feel like I should have ended it two lines earlier. That last line plays as a bit corny to me, partly because I was trying for an EC comics feel in my initial draft, and I think a more abrupt ending that didn't hit things on the nose would be better.
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Oct 31, 2013 14:13
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This is kind of a dumb question but I've never submitted anything to Goonreads. My book is selling preorders today. They come with bonus items (posters and autographed copies and such). I figured some of you might want bonus items but... I have to ask: Are we allowed to put preorder sales on goonreads or do we need to wait until the book is fully released?
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Oct 31, 2013 17:42
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FamousThomas posted:Sorry, could you do that again? Random Stranger posted:My original concept was that the thing that escaped was hope from Pandora's box so humanity was falling into despair and killing themselves, but I couldn't come up with a character and angle that would plant that firmly in the horror genre. Zip posted:This is kind of a dumb question but I've never submitted anything to Goonreads. My book is selling preorders today. They come with bonus items (posters and autographed copies and such). I figured some of you might want bonus items but... I have to ask: Are we allowed to put preorder sales on goonreads or do we need to wait until the book is fully released?
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Oct 31, 2013 18:51
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Thanks a ton Des....
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Oct 31, 2013 19:48
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Worked great, thanks brother.
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Nov 3, 2013 14:05
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Any chance we can get "children's book" as a category?
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Nov 5, 2013 01:39
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FamousThomas posted:Any chance we can get "children's book" as a category? Done!
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Nov 5, 2013 02:35
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Thanks again, Des
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Nov 6, 2013 00:48
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So, I was trying to read the critiques, but it looks like its not loading for me. Anyone have a back up or different format?
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Nov 6, 2013 04:49
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So, hey, I signed up on the site as CharmingMadman. Surprise.
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Nov 7, 2013 20:27
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Been away for a while, but I wanted to belatedly congratulate Random Stranger. Solid story, I really enjoyed it. I thought Rhino's critique of my story was pretty funny and I wasn't offended. I was definitely guilty of dialog as exposition (it's a guilty pleasure), but I have to say the funniest thing was the misunderstanding about infecting children with the plague: They were ALIEN children. The point was to test the efficacy of chemical and biological weapons on this alien species. So apparently I'm better off sticking to 'Tell, don't show' because apparently me + show = fail  Anyway, this was fun and I'm definitely on board for future tomfoolery. EDIT : BTW, absolutely loved the Tropes spreadsheet.
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Nov 10, 2013 01:48
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Just registered for goonreads and posting here to get promoted to contributor. Thanks!
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Nov 14, 2013 16:42
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I figured I'd see if you all want an anthology for those horror stories? Only two people have said that they didn't want theirs published, but neither of those stories got votes (not to say that they were bad stories, though). I just hadn't noticed more than one comment at the site I set up to do some peer review and updates. Just let me know. I probably won't go further with the anthology idea unless there's some discussion on it here or at the Goonreads author site.
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Nov 24, 2013 20:35
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I'd still like to see the anthology go ahead, I just figured it had gone quiet because folks were working on their stories.
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Nov 24, 2013 22:18
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I'm definitely in, as well. It might be better to wait until the new year, though? I know a lot of writers (myself included) are in rush mode right now to get products out for the Christmas buying frenzy. Well, that and probably NaNoWriMo. Maybe all of us can work something out where we each do a review/comments thingy on at least three stories using the new site that Desmond was nice enough to set up for us?
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Nov 25, 2013 16:59
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As I've said, I'm quite willing to do the anthology.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:52
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I'm still down for it. Right now I've been focusing on other stuff so I can come back to the story fresh. I also like the idea of doing some review/comments on each others stories. I know I definitely feel like I need more feedback on mine.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:56
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Yeah, I also need to work on my story. Well, I'll just keep it on the back burner until the November contest, and then holidays, are over. Maybe if we shoot for next fall publishing so it will be sort of seasonal?
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Nov 27, 2013 05:19
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[edit] NM, seems like I missed it  Checking in, as my life has now untangled itself to the point that I can sign up for everything. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 16:55
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Desmond posted:Yeah, I also need to work on my story. Well, I'll just keep it on the back burner until the November contest, and then holidays, are over. Maybe if we shoot for next fall publishing so it will be sort of seasonal? What November contest?
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Nov 27, 2013 20:18
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Posting for confirmation. Registered as Bohemienne.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:09
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