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Snowdens Secret posted:But what distinguishes between an estate, a salon, and a shooting brake? 
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Nov 1, 2013 10:00
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Steve French posted:You really think there are only 20 WRX and STI hatchbacks for sale in the entire country? As mentioned, the WRX/STI hasn't changed body style for a number of years, so if they're counting the 2012 model as a wagon, I don't see why they wouldn't count the 2013 and 2014 models as wagons as well. So uh what's your explanation for those 20 Impreza wagons then?
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Nov 1, 2013 11:40
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West SAAB Story posted:..a spanner is a ratchet, the boot is the trunk, and petrol is gas. HTH. Bonnet is hood, hood is convertible top, etc.
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Nov 1, 2013 13:20
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InitialDave posted:Maybe it's because the US hasn't had the same exposure to five-door hatches? It does seem that the bodystyle is seen as being somehow low rent compared to a saloon by American buyers. Actually, oddly enough, whenever we get a hatchback that is available in overseas markets as a 3- or 5-door, we usually only ever get the 5-door, if not some bastardized sedan version. Maybe you're right about the low rent part, hatchbacks are seen as high-school/college kids cars. There's almost an expectation that you should 'graduate' into something bigger once you quit school, otherwise you're just part of the trailer trash food stamp crowd driving around rusty 15 year old Chevy Cavaliers that have for some God forsaken reason not yet died. But I'd argue that it also has to do with the fact that wagons are, to an extent, a dying segment in the US. Whether that is because of consumers as a whole, or the manufacturers trying to shape demographics, wagons fast becoming as rare as an Italian exotic; SUVs and minivans are probably the prime suspects. So when you see less and less wagons on the road, people start forgetting what is a wagon and what isn't, and the government has a job to do so the poor law-student intern has to find something to put into that "wagon" category for government studies. Also, there is an image thing, too. People think SUVs are 'cooler' than wagons because . I had a friend of mine who would flat out say 'wagons aren't cool' regardless. I told him to hand over his balls and his man card when he said the Nomad wasn't cool because it was a wagon. Of course, this is the same idiot who dismissed the NSX, because no company that builds lawn mowers can build a sports car.
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Nov 1, 2013 14:44
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InitialDave posted:Maybe it's because the US hasn't had the same exposure to five-door hatches? It does seem that the bodystyle is seen as being somehow low rent compared to a saloon by American buyers. Ding ding ding ding ding. There are very few wagons for sale on American lots nowadays. As a result, the majority of wagons (estates) on the road are old and lovely cars which adds to the perception that wagons are, in fact, old and lovely. Self-fulfilling perception. Hatchbacks are also seen as cars for young car buyers without a lot of money, because (surprise!) only cheaper cars are sold as hatchbacks. So, again, hatchbacks aren't for "refined" American tastes. Allegedly. Americans do not place any value on a smaller or compact car (hatchbacks are generally shorter / easier to park than a sedan). In fact, the average American thinks bigger car == safer car, so a smaller car is not only looked down upon, it's viewed as "unsafe". Heck, I'd honestly say Americans don't even like sedans (saloons) that much anymore. For most Americans, the vehicle status symbol is an SUV or crossover, or a new pickup truck that has never hauled anything in the bed or been off-road. Basically, the average American has lovely taste in cars.
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Nov 1, 2013 16:07
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BigBadBrewsta posted:Americans do not place any value on a smaller or compact car (hatchbacks are generally shorter / easier to park than a sedan). In fact, the average American thinks bigger car == safer car, so a smaller car is not only looked down upon, it's viewed as "unsafe". This is so true. When helping my aunt pick out a car for my younger cousin they wouldn't even look at a smaller new car because 'those are unsafe and she would get killed.' Never mind the safety ratings, newer tech, and huge amount of airbags on the newer cars. Bigger = Safer! My cousin at the time was driving a 1996 Sebring.  Thats what I think of when I think of top safety picks!
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Nov 1, 2013 16:21
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People have gotten used to the high seating positions of SUV's/Trucks/Crossovers and since everyone else is driving one too......
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Nov 1, 2013 17:34
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I drive a gigantic SUV and hate it most of the time. Yet, whenever I get cut off by a lifted F-250 I lovingly pat the thousands of pounds of steel between my soft body and his budweiser tall-boy fueled road monster.
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Nov 1, 2013 17:44
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Keyser S0ze posted:People have gotten used to the high seating positions of SUV's/Trucks/Crossovers and since everyone else is driving one too...... All the rappers and rich people be driving Escalades, not Elantras.
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Nov 1, 2013 17:55
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Back in the day, American families bought station wagons because they were the biggest things on the road that you could buy for cheap and jam kids and groceries into. Then the same type of buyer partly transitioned to minivans because they were even bigger cars for the same price. And then to SUVs because they were even bigger than that for cheap and also because the whole generation was in denial about getting old and wanted to not buy mom cars like minivans and station wagons. But then they got sick of truck handling and bad gas mileage, so manufacturers came out with crossovers which are basically station wagons with modern fat styling and higher ride heights. Americans don't care about parking or driving on tiny pre-industrial roads, and all things being equal (cost and in modern times fuel costs), they usually go for the biggest car they can buy. Sedans are what rich people cars are, because they're less noisy and stiffer than hatches due to the geometry of a separate trunk (mostly irrelevant now due to modern engineering, but historically significant, especially when considering the classic American use case of high-speed highway cruising on rough road surfaces). Since sedans are not only associated with rich people cars but are also longer than comparable hatchbacks, Americans like sedans and also giant crossovers based on sedan platforms. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 1, 2013 |
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Nov 1, 2013 18:53
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Laserface posted:But if the Focus was a 4 door, youd still have 4 pillars. Well you're in luck because at least in '05 (I originally laughed at this when my sister got her '05 Focus, which was a five-door hatch) the Focus could be had in the US as a sedan, three-door hatch, five-door hatch, and wagon. Difference between the latter being rear roof profile and overall length. Wheelbase is the same on all.  For reference - the 3/5 door hatch have identical exterior dimensions and are the shortest of the three. The sedan is in the middle and the wagon is the longest. And Cream_Filling nailed it. I didn't buy a crossover because I like the fact that it's tall; I bought it because if you want what you used to buy a wagon for (car driving dynamics with more space), it's the only thing that really exists. Maybe I should bag the CR-V. 
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Nov 1, 2013 20:00
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The C170 Focus really is the best illustration of the difference between a wagon and a 5-door hatch. I think it's even more stark if you look at the actual cars. Hatchback  Wagon  It's kind of like that whole definition of obscenity thing, "I'll know it when I see it". It might be hard to communicate clearly, but it's actually really obvious (i.e. the WRX is not a wagon).
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Nov 1, 2013 22:07
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BigBadBrewsta posted:Ding ding ding ding ding. I'd say this is pretty spot on. I was never in the camp of "smaller cars are bad", but I also had never thought about it before I started traveling overseas more. A mid-size sedan is about as big as I'd like to go anymore. If I want anything offroad or need to haul, I'll hook a trailer to a Wrangler.
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Nov 1, 2013 23:44
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I'd say I define a wagon as something you could concievably put a third row of seats into the cargo area and have actual usable amounts of headroom. The Roadmaster being the epitome of this, because they actually did it. Bring back the Roadmaster 2015. With the new LT1.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:07
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So why are the higher-end/luxury models for small cars always the hatch in north america?
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Nov 2, 2013 00:23
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Probably because they're built that way for the rest of the world, and since all the companies are global now it's too expensive to redesign them for a sedan version, even if that's what this market would prefer. Hence why, for example, the Focus and Fiesta ST are hatch only (as far as I know, I could be wrong), Cars like my Mazdaspeed Protege and the Cobalt SS may be the last of the Hot Compact Sedans we'll see for a while (don't talk to me about the Civic Si, that car is dead to me).
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Nov 2, 2013 00:27
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Wheeee posted:So why are the higher-end/luxury models for small cars always the hatch in north america? They're not. If you're thinking of hot hatches, which are by no means luxury models, they are a very recent development - the original US sport compacts were almost all exclusively coupes and sedans. Nowadays there are more hot hatches both because of increased model sharing between US and Europe and because of a growing euro-fetishism among enthusiasts. Performance variants of economy cars are usually so low-volume that they benefit significantly from sharing development costs with the larger market for hatches in EUrope.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:28
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Cream_Filling posted:They're not. Oops; yea that's what I meant. Thanks.
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Nov 2, 2013 00:37
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The people that buy hot hatches want and seek out hot hatches and will pay premiums for them. This lets the carcos throw in some high-profit extras without damping sales too badly. Americans generally have little tolerance or desire for engines that can't pull a greasy string out of a cat's rear end. CAFE standards are much more forgiving for SUVs / crossovers so that's where the car companies get to put the big engines. Note that there are essentially no mainstream domestic sedans you can get a V8 in (the Charger/300 is the closest and their V8s are in the lower volume top trims) and it's been this way for some time; now it's even getting hard to find sixes in a lot of cars. So if you want to max your cheap displacement, you get a sport-ute. This goes with what Cream_Filling said about wanting the maximum cubic footage for your buck, as well - it all pushes car consumers into truck/truckish things. Americans of a certain age remain deeply suspicious of turbo engine longevity and I'm suspicious that anything <1.6l will ever catch on in the US in a bigger-than-subcompact car, no matter how hard you huff it, because the driving dynamics are so far from the low-end torque-dependent American driving styles.
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Nov 2, 2013 01:20
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I've got 52HP and it suits me just fine as an american
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Nov 2, 2013 02:12
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Fucknag posted:Probably because they're built that way for the rest of the world, and since all the companies are global now it's too expensive to redesign them for a sedan version, even if that's what this market would prefer. Hence why, for example, the Focus and Fiesta ST are hatch only (as far as I know, I could be wrong), They actually have a Focus ST Wagon in Europe.  
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Nov 2, 2013 03:33
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Throatwarbler posted:SO here's a thing. No they don't. They say it's not as good as the Si and GTI, but it's still fun and significantly cheaper. VikingSkull posted:They really are. You'd figure that of all companies, Toyota and Honda would have learned the lesson the Big 3 learned here in that time frame, but nope. Honda is like Cadillac, living off their reputation of being dependable and high quality, well past the point of their competition becoming even more sturdy and luxurious. They aren't terrible cars (yet), but by God are they loaded with lovely plastic, and they aren't the best in any segment. This isn't true. The Accord is widely considered the top car in its segment, and its hybrid model is getting a lot of hype. The redesigned Civic is getting excellent reviews, especially the new Si's in spite of their power deficit. And their crossovers are usually at the top of their respective classes. Dependable and high quality are still apt descriptions for their cars. They just don't make many fun cars anymore, which is a sad departure from the Honda of the 90s and early 00s.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:17
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13 INCH DICK posted:I've got 52HP and it suits me just fine as an american I wonder how many are actually left.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:52
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Snowdens Secret posted:Americans of a certain age remain deeply suspicious of turbo engine longevity and I'm suspicious that anything <1.6l will ever catch on in the US in a bigger-than-subcompact car, no matter how hard you huff it, because the driving dynamics are so far from the low-end torque-dependent American driving styles.
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Nov 2, 2013 06:52
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Ford didn't just offer up a new engine option with the Ecoboost though, they ran a large and very well-done marketing campaign for it. People will buy new things but you need to sell them on it.
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Nov 2, 2013 18:59
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Friar Zucchini posted:Check the stats on the Ecoboost F150 - you'd expect that if anyone would think that anything other than a V8 is worthless Eurojunk it'd be pickup buyers, but the Ecoboost turbo-V6 actually sells really well. The newest stats I can easily find are from mid-2012, by which point around 40% of F150s had the Ecoboost engine. On the contrary, I think pickup buyers would probably be the most apt. Maybe not the chrome truck nuts bro crowd, but there is probably a higher chance that pick-up buyers have driven a turbo'd vehicle than regular sedan/SUV crowd (mainly through exposure to turbo-diesels in 350s/3500s). Also, n/a V-6 "fleet" half-tons have always sold in decent numbers, so those buyers are probably grateful for the extra power.
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Nov 2, 2013 19:07
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YF19pilot posted:
Yeah, but those have always been really cheap. Those buyers aren't getting the ecoboost because it's more than a truck with the v8.
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Nov 2, 2013 20:42
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fknlo posted:Yeah, but those have always been really cheap. Those buyers aren't getting the ecoboost because it's more than a truck with the v8. Ah, okay, didn't realize the Ecoboost slotted in above the V8. I thought it would be between the base V6 and the V8.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:09
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YF19pilot posted:Ah, okay, didn't realize the Ecoboost slotted in above the V8. I thought it would be between the base V6 and the V8. Yeah there's the V6 (300 hp), 5.0 V8 (360 hp), V6 Eco (365 hp), and the 6.2 V8 (411 hp)
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Nov 2, 2013 21:25
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:They actually have a Focus ST Wagon in Europe. Of course they do. And of course it's gorgeous.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:54
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GM is exploring a new concept: Putting the biggest engine in the smallest truck. http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/03/chevy-silverado-cheyenne-concept-sema/
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Nov 4, 2013 11:12
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Throatwarbler posted:GM is exploring a new concept: Putting the biggest engine in the smallest truck. Good. Now put the smallest engine in the biggest truck
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Nov 4, 2013 11:32
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I think I saw a McLaren hybrid yesterday. Covered in a black and white camouflage pattern, it came through a village almost silently, and then the exhaust properly blared when they opened it up on the main road. If it wasn't running on electric at low speed, then it's the most impressive active exhaust I've encountered.
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Nov 4, 2013 11:54
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The P1 is absolutely bonkers. Over 900hp, but if you drive it gently, it supposedly gets better fuel economy than my 160hp sedan (28mpg vs 26.5mpg) 
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Nov 4, 2013 12:04
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Throatwarbler posted:GM is exploring a new concept: Putting the biggest engine in the smallest truck. gently caress yes.
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Nov 4, 2013 18:01
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PeterWeller posted:The redesigned Civic is getting excellent reviews, especially the new Si's in spite of their power deficit. And their crossovers are usually at the top of their respective classes. Dependable and high quality are still apt descriptions for their cars. They just don't make many fun cars anymore, which is a sad departure from the Honda of the 90s and early 00s. I don't understand how the Civic is still getting good reviews. I test drove a 2012 and was thoroughly unimpressed. The road noise was horrendous and the interior was hideous and full of cheap plastics. I'm sure it's still reliable and better than some of the junk out there, but it didn't impress. Adequate would be the word I'd use to describe it. The 2013 looks better from the outside, but the interior is still the same. Although, apparently I'm in the minority, because the Civic is killing everyone in sales on the year: http://www.motortrend.com/wot/1311_october_2013_compact_sales_honda_civic_takes_top_spot_from_corolla/ code:How on Earth did the 2012 Corolla outsell the 2012 Civic a year ago? The 2012 Corolla was woefully outdated and wasn't remotely competitive compared to Focus, Cruze, Civic, Elantra, Dart, etc. This in and of itself illustrates how much a brand name and brand equity means over actual measures of quality. Wow. The Cruze is a good product, but I am surprised to see it where it is. I guess it's easy to forget the power of GM's extensive dealer network and a Chevy dealership in every single Smalltown, USA. I would have expected to see the Focus well in front of it, considering the more extensive Focus lineup (which includes hatchbacks). The Hyundai Elantra has carved out a very successful niche for itself. Yes, it lags significantly behind the Focus / Cruze / Civic / Corolla, but it's also well ahead of the VW Jetta. It's a very solid fifth. The Elantra's success also demonstrates how much Kia has yet to go in building up its brand. Even though folks who read reviews and car enthusiasts know Kia is making pretty good cars these days, there's still so much negative energy and negative connotation associated with Kia that folks won't buy the Forte in significant numbers. That's interesting, because the Forte is considered on-par with the Elantra by most. BigBadBrewsta fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 21:26
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BigBadBrewsta posted:I don't understand how the Civic is still getting good reviews. I test drove a 2012 and was thoroughly unimpressed. The road noise was horrendous and the interior was hideous and full of cheap plastics. I'm sure it's still reliable and better than some of the junk out there, but it didn't impress. Adequate would be the word I'd use to describe it. The 2013 looks better from the outside, but the interior is still the same. That's your problem right there. The 2012 was pretty well widely panned by everyone. Honda did an emergency refresh which the 2013, which was met with skepticism, but from what I've seen is basically what Honda should've release a year ago.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:54
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YF19pilot posted:That's your problem right there. The 2012 was pretty well widely panned by everyone. Honda did an emergency refresh which the 2013, which was met with skepticism, but from what I've seen is basically what Honda should've release a year ago. I'll admit the road noise and handling could've been improved (and boy do I hope they were), but the interior is still blah. Oh well, you could certainly do worse.
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Nov 4, 2013 22:18
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I've seen a couple of the new Mazda3 hatches on the road in Toronto, they're pretty gorgeous I have to say. Punching above their weight, design wise.
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Nov 4, 2013 22:28
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personal anecdote but when my GF was shopping in that category, many many people said "why are you looking at (Brand X) just go buy a Toyota/Honda because they're the best". It was even kind of hard for her, after hands on experience, to finally admit the Hyundai was superior because she loved her old Camry. It takes ages for people's perceptions to change especially with cars where the general public pays attention to the market every 3-5 years and then usually tries to get it over with as quickly as possible due to all the annoyances of car shopping. To be honest I'm not so sure that opinions even change at all past a certain age but the people just age out of the market. Hence why GM was selling Oldsmobiles to octogenarians for decades after they were truly competitive. Honda and Toyota can continue putting out a very mediocre product for a really long time before it bothers their bottom line.
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Nov 4, 2013 23:44
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