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Maybe you don't realise it, but Greece is not the USA. We do not live in any sort of relative prosperity. In a country with over 30% unemployment, where living standards have been going downhill for the past four years and keep going down like that, and in which the political elite has lost pretty much all credibility, people are sympathising with the nazis regardless. They are trying to pass themselves off as the good boys who will take Greece back, that they're on the side of the oppressed and the victimised. Legitimately victimising them on top by committing loving murder is only going to reinforce that. They want to be hated and excluded from institutions because that reinforces their image as an untainted, pure group that's just looking out for Greece's best interests. Beating up and killing fascists like this in some sort of ideological crusade is a dumb idiot tactic that will work about as well as the war on terror has. And on a personal level, I'm frankly disgusted by it, and fail to see how it's not the left-wing equivalent of the "good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun" vigilante fantasies.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:28
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YF-23 posted:Maybe you don't realise it, but Greece is not the USA. We do not live in any sort of relative prosperity. In a country with over 30% unemployment, where living standards have been going downhill for the past four years and keep going down like that, and in which the political elite has lost pretty much all credibility, people are sympathising with the nazis regardless. They are trying to pass themselves off as the good boys who will take Greece back, that they're on the side of the oppressed and the victimised. Legitimately victimising them on top by committing loving murder is only going to reinforce that. They want to be hated and excluded from institutions because that reinforces their image as an untainted, pure group that's just looking out for Greece's best interests. It's funny too, because the Real Actual Nazis of 20s and 30s Germany made excellent use of portraying their members being beaten up and killed to win sympathy for themselves. You'd think some people could learn from history, but apparently that's too much to ask.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:35
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Radio Prune posted:That card gets thrown out by Liberals all the time but I've never seen anything to back it up. Even if it was true, what are you going to do with all this popular support (because your death suddenly means normal people become Nazis) when you're face-down in an alleyway with your brains in the gutter? There's nothing to back it up. Liberals simply take it as always and necessarily true that people sympathise with victimised people. Why they have this irrational conviction in believing someone so obviously empirically false is beyond me. People always sympathise with victimised people. That's why there was such mass support from white America during the civil rights movement. That's why so many Americans defend Islamic terrorist organisations. Bear Retrieval Unit posted:They can have Atlantis. They used to have some lovely places in Siberia that a long stay in would do fascists a world of good.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:38
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YF-23 posted:Maybe you don't realise it, but Greece is not the USA. We do not live in any sort of relative prosperity. In a country with over 30% unemployment, where living standards have been going downhill for the past four years and keep going down like that, and in which the political elite has lost pretty much all credibility, people are sympathising with the nazis regardless. They are trying to pass themselves off as the good boys who will take Greece back, that they're on the side of the oppressed and the victimised. Legitimately victimising them on top by committing loving murder is only going to reinforce that. They want to be hated and excluded from institutions because that reinforces their image as an untainted, pure group that's just looking out for Greece's best interests. So the alternative is to let them go and beat in the heads of immigrants and leftists? Hell, the government let the leader punch and kick reporters with impunity when they let him out on bail. Radical-Pacifism hosed over the Italian left in the 30's.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:45
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Kieselguhr Kid posted:People always sympathise with victimised people. That's why there was such mass support from white America during the civil rights movement. That's why so many Americans defend Islamic terrorist organisations. In both those cases, mass media spun (white) America as the victim.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:47
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EndofGoogle posted:So the alternative is to let them go and beat in the heads of immigrants and leftists? Hell, the government let the leader punch and kick reporters with impunity when they let him out on bail. Radical-Pacifism hosed over the Italian left in the 30's. I'm pretty sure the left got hosed over in Italy in the 1930s by the fact Mussolini had achieved prime ministership in 1922, quickly got himself a one year grant of near-dictator status, and then went on to systematically dismantle all remaining restraints on him and the fascist party which was pretty much done by 1925.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:51
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Install Windows posted:I'm pretty sure the left got hosed over in Italy in the 1930s by the fact Mussolini had achieved prime ministership in 1922, quickly got himself a one year grant of near-dictator status, and then went on to systematically dismantle all remaining restraints on him and the fascist party which was pretty much done by 1925. If only someone had stopped them 
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Nov 2, 2013 02:57
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YF-23 posted:Beating up and killing fascists like this in some sort of ideological crusade is a dumb idiot tactic that will work about as well as the war on terror has. And on a personal level, I'm frankly disgusted by it, and fail to see how it's not the left-wing equivalent of the "good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun" vigilante fantasies. I imagine you'd feel less disgusted if you or yours was one of the targeted people. Fascist groups succeed because they redirect legitimate anger towards weak targets, they present a narrative blaming X non-power group and try to legitimise hurting them as a way to make the fascist feel empowered and to redirect attention from their actual enemies. The crucial thing you aren't grasping is those aggressive behaviours aren't a joke. Normal people can't change the immediate political landscape, but they can ensure that their area is safe from fascists. And when the police won't help then battering a few nasty fuckers and telling them to stay away is objectively the right thing to do, even if it only buys time until a longer term solution appears.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:59
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Beating up and killing fascists is a rebuke to the core of the appeal fascism, which is the idea that fascism is strength and power. Demonstrating that fascists are not strong and in fact are subject to being beaten or killed essentially refutes the core of their appeal.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:30
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Pope Guilty posted:Beating up and killing fascists is a rebuke to the core of the appeal fascism, which is the idea that fascism is strength and power. Demonstrating that fascists are not strong and in fact are subject to being beaten or killed essentially refutes the core of their appeal. Didn't work in Germany.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:35
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Install Windows posted:Didn't work in Germany. Did by 1945.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:37
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Gonzo McFee posted:Did by 1945. Might I ask where you'll be getting ten million man armies from in Greece? Oh and extensive foreign occupation, don't forget that.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:40
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Install Windows posted:Didn't work in Germany. rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 03:46
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Install Windows posted:Might I ask where you'll be getting ten million man armies from in Greece? Oh and extensive foreign occupation, don't forget that. Perhaps something should be done before it gets to that stage then.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:49
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Seems like an awfully big gamble to swear off violently resisting fascism forever based off of a sample size of: one (1), and a sample with innumerable complicating factors simultaneously at play beyond just "violence against fascists/public sympathy for fascism" to boot. Or a more useful question: when does it become acceptable and prudent to retaliate against fascists? I mean, aside from Emden, we can all agree that it's good that Nazi Germany was overthrown. When does it become a good idea? When it's a nation-state doing it? When there's international consensus? When they lose the support of their own populace? Or earlier, when they threaten to gain power?
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Nov 2, 2013 03:50
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rudatron posted:Are you suggesting that an alternate strategy of 'don't let by sympathize with them' would have worked? Honestly, it just seems like the nazis weren't beaten up enough. Germany's problem was that it was full of people who were more than happy to support racial politics on top of other things because they were already pretty loving racist and xenophobic. Don't forget the widespread support for authoritarian policies by more than enough of the population too. The Germans weren't a blameless people spoiled by a few bad apples. Gonzo McFee posted:Perhaps something should be done before it gets to that stage then. Well see, the last time people did the thing you're suggesting, the Nazis took power. Ambrose Burnside posted:Seems like an awfully big gamble to swear off violently resisting fascism forever based off of a sample size of: one (1), and a sample with innumerable complicating factors simultaneously at play beyond just "violence against fascists/public sympathy for fascism" to boot. Well the good news is no one was going to be violently resisting in the first place so nothing has changed there. "When they threaten to gain power" would be way ahead of what Golden Dawn has ever actually had in Greece, just saying there. Most people would agree that attempting to violently resist normal gangs tends to be a bad idea. Frankly modern fascists at best rarely get to beyond the status of "lovely gang". Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 03:55
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:The only proper place for a fascist is the gallows. ftfm
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Nov 2, 2013 03:56
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How many Internet blackshirts have you killed today, comrade? Red salute.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:57
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Install Windows posted:
What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway?
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Nov 2, 2013 03:58
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Gonzo McFee posted:What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway? So this is you admitting that it accomplished nothing other then make some people feel good for a bit. Glad you agree with me!
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Nov 2, 2013 04:01
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Install Windows posted:So this is you admitting that it accomplished nothing other then make some people feel good for a bit. Glad you agree with me! What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:02
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:03
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Gonzo McFee posted:What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway? History actually happened, they actually did come to power, this was including that people beat them up. In fact, them getting beat up and even killed is in the Nazi anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzeNj1vlzAk Sorry that it hurts you to admit that beating them up didn't help.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:04
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:06
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:Yes it was much better to shoot them. So when are you going to advocate for Greece to be invaded and occupied?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:07
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Install Windows posted:History actually happened, they actually did come to power, this was including that people beat them up. In fact, them getting beat up and even killed is in the Nazi anthem: Should have kept going till they were all dead.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:08
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Install Windows posted:History actually happened, they actually did come to power, this was including that people beat them up. In fact, them getting beat up and even killed is in the Nazi anthem: So if NOT beating up Fascists lets them into power, and beating up Fascists lets them into power, what the hell is your suggestion? (Also Germany probably would've turned out very different if Stalin had given the german communists the okay to form a united front against fascism with social democrats.)
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Nov 2, 2013 04:09
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I think violence / physical confrontation is inevitable when fascists attempt to organize politically. Look up on YouTube the BNP candidate Bob Bailey getting into a fist fight. It's just a thing that ... happens. I'm not sure I'm even for or against it because that's sort of in the nature of the thing. But I think you should still be prudent. Proportionality should be a guideline in conflict (as in war - per McNamara) regardless of who the enemy is. You should try to have empathy for all people (which is a different thing from sympathy) regardless of their race, religion or creed. Everyone, at least, deserves that. At the same time, you may have to do evil things in order to prevent greater evils. I endorse using force against fascists when they attempt to politically organize. I don't endorse it in all circumstances. I'm also aghast at some anti-fascists who don't really seem much different than the fascists they oppose, even down to the clothing they wear and how they seem driven by primordial hatred (except against fascists so it's okay apparently). When really, you should understand that what you're doing when you use violence is a terrible thing, even though it may be necessary depending on the circumstances. And can I say that talking about what to do / what not to do in Weimar freaking Germany is really boring? We're not living in freaking Weimar.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:15
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Install Windows posted:Might I ask where you'll be getting ten million man armies from in Greece? Oh and extensive foreign occupation, don't forget that. I'm willing to speculate: Germany and the European Union in general won't tolerate a fascist government in Greece. There's already enormous international pressure for the Greek government to clean up its act.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:15
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Christ this is the dumbest derail, bashing the fash should be a weapon of last resort, as asinine as it sounds, trying to convert them should be done first.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:16
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Gonzo McFee posted:Should have kept going till they were all dead. They couldn't do that, because those people didn't have enough support. Meanwhile the Nazis had most of the other right wing paramilitary organizations to call on for support. Left wing and centrist Weimar paramilitaries totalled about 350,000 members altogether at their peak. Meanwhile the Steel Helmets alone numbered 500,000 easily. reignonyourparade posted:So if NOT beating up Fascists lets them into power, and beating up Fascists lets them into power, what the hell is your suggestion? Don't allow the material conditions that swell Fascist support to continue. In other words, you need working governments. This was the key thing that among others kept America, Czechoslovakia and the UK from going totalitarian, but allowed half of Europe to do it before Hitler even started making them do it. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:16
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reignonyourparade posted:So if NOT beating up Fascists lets them into power, and beating up Fascists lets them into power, what the hell is your suggestion? The liberal solution is to let the fascists take power and revel in your moral superiority in the moments before the bullet enter your head.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:16
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:19
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Pope Guilty posted:The liberal solution is to let the fascists take power and revel in your moral superiority in the moments before the bullet enter your head.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:19
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Ambrose Burnside posted:Or a more useful question: when does it become acceptable and prudent to retaliate against fascists? When they identify as such. reignonyourparade posted:(Also Germany probably would've turned out very different if Stalin had given the german communists the okay to form a united front against fascism with social democrats.) Or if the Social Democrats hadn't sold out the Communists initially. Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
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Nov 2, 2013 04:20
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Omi-Polari posted:No, it's not. Given the last few decades of liberal complicity in the dismantling of social safety nets and the extension of neoliberal economics, what exactly is the liberal plan supposed to be, then?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:21
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Christ this is the dumbest derail, bashing the fash should be a weapon of last resort, as asinine as it sounds, trying to convert them should be done first. I'm curious as to how you think this would go. The converting, I mean.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:23
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Emden posted:I'm curious as to how you think this would go. The converting, I mean. Ideally conceiving people like you that racism is wrong.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:26
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Emden posted:I'm curious as to how you think this would go. The converting, I mean. I'm glad to know you literally can't conceptualize an answer to "why are things bad and getting worse" being anything other than "those fuckin minorities"
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Nov 2, 2013 04:28
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Ideally conceiving people like you that racism is wrong. Well yeah, I figured that much. But my question was how many fascists or proto-fascists do you think would go for this, you think? 25%? 50%? Ambrose Burnside posted:I'm glad to know you literally can't conceptualize an answer to "why are things bad and getting worse" being anything other than "those fuckin minorities" Way to ignore all of my posts about neoliberalism, I guess.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:32
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