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Emden posted:Way to ignore all of my posts about neoliberalism, I guess. Your posts on neoliberalism are kinda irrelevant when you follow them up with "Ergo: secure a future for the white race."
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Nov 2, 2013 04:33
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Emden posted:I'm curious as to how you think this would go. The converting, I mean. It works rather well, actually. My parents are neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers. That I'm not is basically a credit to the value of a liberal arts education and of simply being around people unlike yourself on a regular basis.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:33
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Emden posted:I'm curious as to how you think this would go. The converting, I mean. The whole point of fascism is that it's about the rebirth of the nation. Well, what is the nation today? Our identities are more complex. And if you live in a city in America it's impossible to go about your day without interacting with these overlapping identities--unless you're just a shut-in. And our private lives have become much more privatized. We play video games now to get out our frustration instead of joining nationalist student movements and things like in 1920s Weimar Germany. Emden, do you completely isolate yourself from all non-white cultures? Do you never order Chinese food? Do you only listen to white Euro-American music and nothing else? It'd be miserable. Most people don't want to live like that today, and our lived experiences today are really the strongest defense against fascism.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:33
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:34
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Emden posted:Way to ignore all of my posts about neoliberalism, I guess. Talking about neoliberalism isn't particularly useful to anybody when it inevitably turns into AND THOSE GODDAMN BROWNS GETTING LIFE HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER
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Nov 2, 2013 04:34
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Omi-Polari posted:Emden, do you completely isolate yourself from all non-white cultures? Do you never order Chinese food? Do you only listen to white Euro-American music and nothing else? It'd be miserable. Most people don't want to live like that today, and our lived experiences today are really the strongest defense against fascism. Note that you can't even listen to rock because that's half thanks to  Black People!
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Nov 2, 2013 04:35
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It works rather well, actually. My parents are neo-nazis and Holocaust deniers. That I'm not is basically a credit to the value of a liberal arts education and of simply being around people unlike yourself on a regular basis. That's gotta be one hell of a thanksgiving dinner. Or whatever holiday dinner if you're not American.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:40
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Yes I don't see how neoliberalism and the disenfranchisement of white people are connected. I have a hard time grasping the connection because, in my mind, neoliberalism is about subtly exploiting the poor and those guys are more often than not, well you know, brown.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:41
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Hey yeah, Emden, what kind of music do you listen to?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:42
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Pope Guilty posted:Hey yeah, Emden, what kind of music do you listen to? Must Prominently Feature Bagpipes. White PRide Worldwide
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Nov 2, 2013 04:46
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Imagine what things would be like if someone had vaporised the Bürgerbräukeller in 1923. The world would have fallen to the Nazis by the late '30s! Fascism is the only political ideology powered by homeopathy.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:50
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Emden posted:Well yeah, I figured that much. But my question was how many fascists or proto-fascists do you think would go for this, you think? 25%? 50%? God if it managed even 10% it'd blow my mind. As the post I quote next gets at, you're never going to be able to argue a group or ideology out of existence and would probably only show results from the proto-fascist group. Omi-Polari posted:I'm pretty much convinced that you can't change an adult's mind about anything through argument. People's opinions don't change that way. But people's opinions do change based on their experiences. Homophobia didn't decline because people were argued out of it. It declined because gay people came out of the closet and confronted others simply by living their lives like everyone else. It's hard to scapegoat a class of people when one of them is your kid. I would argue this is true for like 95% of the time but arguing with such people helps to open their minds up for when they do have that experience or realization.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:54
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reignonyourparade posted:Note that you can't even listen to rock because that's half thanks to Speaking of the whole "lived experiences" thing. A good friend of mine makes his living as a political organizer, and he refuses to argue or debate with people. Because it's just absolutely pointless. You will never change anyone's minds and it's a waste of time. Instead, his job revolves around finding which people support (say) Policy A and which people don't, and to organize the people who support Policy A. Organize enough people, and Policy A wins. Society changes. You don't have to convert fascists or convince them that they're wrong. IT'S POINTLESS. But you can work towards making a society in which the fascist dream of a renewed Nation is obsolete and unthinkable. It's ludicrous idea, like bathroom wall crackpot crazy. That sounds squishy and liberal but it works. Raskolnikov38 posted:I would argue this is true for like 95% of the time but arguing with such people helps to open their minds up for when they do have that experience or realization.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:54
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Radio Prune posted:
voter molecules can retain the memory of romanticism, giving facism its potency.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:54
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Two Golden Dawn members got killed. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/01/two-golden-dawn-members-killed-in-drive-by-shooting/ Without knowing much more I can only say stamp the dirt down.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:57
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:58
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Omi-Polari posted:Yeah. And maybe on the margins and for little things. But you're not going to change anyone's over-arching world-view based on the persuasive god-like awesomeness of your arguments. No and that's not the point I was making. It's more by arguing with them you can provide them with an idea of a point of view other than "all niggers must hang" for when they are exposed to something that might make them change their over arching world view.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:01
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TJO posted:Two Golden Dawn members got killed.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:33
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:He won't say because everytime he puts it on bad meanies swamp the jukebox with the Marseillaise I read that several of the actors in that scene were refugees and that much of the emotion caught on camera wasn't just acting.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:35
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Emden posted:How many Internet blackshirts have you killed today, comrade? Red salute. How many ethnic shops have you burned down?
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Nov 2, 2013 06:05
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rudatron posted:I'd hope leftists in greece are willing and able to do these kinds of acts, but we don't know that as a matter of fact. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 06:12
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Emden posted:How many Internet blackshirts have you killed today, comrade? Red salute. 
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Nov 2, 2013 06:15
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Emden posted:How many Internet blackshirts have you killed today, comrade? Red salute. How many minorities have you dragged behind your pick-up? Sieg Heil. 
staticman fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 06:50
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Omi-Polari posted:I endorse using force against fascists when they attempt to politically organize. I don't endorse it in all circumstances. I'm also aghast at some anti-fascists who don't really seem much different than the fascists they oppose, [b]even down to the clothing they wear and how they seem driven by primordial hatred (except against fascists so it's okay apparently). When really, you should understand that what you're doing when you use violence is a terrible thing, even though it may be necessary depending on the circumstances.
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Nov 2, 2013 08:29
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Omi-Polari posted:
McNamara isn't the best figure to learn lessons from. The appropriateness of a proportional response is entirely dependent on the situation. If a group (like GD) needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a problem, but currently has no way to escalate the situation (like overthrowing the government), then by all means, make an example of out of them of such a scale that it'll serve as a notice to anyone else who gets funny ideas about the way things should be. If tomorrow the Greek government was to raid GD offices, procure its member lists, and then snatch every single member it could find and transfer them to mass graves, it would probably be quite a few decades or longer until any other group ever tries to imitate Golden Dawn's belief system. Whether or not proportionality should be used as a guideline depends on the possible escalation and consequences of it. Tit-for-tat measures should by no means be assumed to always be the correct response. Vernii fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 08:57
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I don't think attempting the systematic murder of all golden dawn members would be a good move for the stability of the Greek state.
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Nov 2, 2013 09:14
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Vernii posted:If tomorrow the Greek government was to raid GD offices, procure its member lists, and then snatch every single member it could find and transfer them to mass graves, it would probably be quite a few decades or longer until any other group ever tries to imitate Golden Dawn's belief system. And it would also be a crime under quite a lot of international laws. I mean loving hell that is some serious commitment to state sponsered murder there. I know there are lots of ideological reasons for doing this, and God's know I am not going to oppose anything like the battle of cable street, but to use state resources to kill a group you don't like sets a very unhappy precedent.
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Nov 2, 2013 09:18
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Strudel Man posted:I don't think attempting the systematic murder of all golden dawn members would be a good move for the stability of the Greek state. Omi-Polari posted:Oh there are definitely leftists in Greece who are willing and capable. These are not your U.S. or Western Europe leftists but armed Greek left-wing extremists who have done things like fire an RPG-7 round at the U.S. embassy a couple years ago and are suspected in the assassination of a journalist.
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Nov 2, 2013 09:18
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rudatron posted:No you're right, it wouldn't be useful right now. If you aren't willing to do it when it is useful, you'll end up in a fascist state. I guess ultimately one of my life philosophies is, "when in doubt, don't murder a bunch of people." quote:They also took responsibility, because that's the point of these kind of attacks. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 09:24
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Josef bugman posted:And it would also be a crime under quite a lot of international laws. I mean loving hell that is some serious commitment to state sponsered murder there. I know there are lots of ideological reasons for doing this, and God's know I am not going to oppose anything like the battle of cable street, but to use state resources to kill a group you don't like sets a very unhappy precedent. And the international community would do nothing. No one would be punished for it, and chances are there wouldn't even be that much complaining. No (sensible) politician anywhere is going to stand up for the 'rights' of fascist scum. That said, it was merely an example of how disproportionate force can be a useful tool.
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Nov 2, 2013 09:33
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Vernii posted:And the international community would do nothing. No one would be punished for it, and chances are there wouldn't even be that much complaining. No (sensible) politician anywhere is going to stand up for the 'rights' of fascist scum. It's certainly a striking attitude, though. Nothing like 'legitimate targets' to bring out a person's bloodlust, I suppose.
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Nov 2, 2013 09:39
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Strudel Man posted:I can't say I agree, though I rather doubt the matter will be put to the test. I subscribe to a rather pragmatic view of ethics, I think is the best way to put it. History is determined by the victor. If Nazi Germany had its way, millions of people would have simply never existed. When one analyzes the average fascist, what value do they have? They espouse a political philosophy that's founded in the blood of millions, denies that their victims ever existed, and seek to add new ones to the tally in their quest for a "pure" nation. They harass and attack people who are merely trying to build a better life for themselves and their family, all for the cause of 'preserving' a culture and nation that in many cases isn't that great to begin with. They compete for jobs, resources, and necessities with people who aren't violent scum, all the while bragging about their supposed innate superiority. They hate art, they hate culture, they hate anything different from their supposed master vision of their national identity and ethnicity. It is an inevitable conclusion that they are a deficit in the tally of humankind. What therefore, is a fascist's natural place in life, other than an unmarked grave by the side of a lonely road? Nobody misses the Nazis, and the Soviets and Allies murdered them by the bushel. No one laments the life of an SS trooper who's life was ended by greasing the treads of a T-34, no more than they mourn the deaths of those who kept the German military-industrial complex operating back when Eighth Air Force incinerated urban centers on a daily basis. And what was built from it? A better world. EDIT: It was brought to my attention that this post is rather...hypocritical in its own way, but that's not my intention. My point is that since fascism is basically as close to objectively evil as a political philosophy can get, that therefore any method of dealing with it is therefore a lesser evil and hence more moral in comparison. Vernii fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 10:12
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Strudel Man posted:I don't think attempting the systematic murder of all golden dawn members would be a good move for the stability of the Greek state. It would lower the life expectation of the Greeks, which would delight the IMF.
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Nov 2, 2013 10:13
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Vernii posted:McNamara isn't the best figure to learn lessons from. The appropriateness of a proportional response is entirely dependent on the situation. If a group (like GD) needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a problem, but currently has no way to escalate the situation (like overthrowing the government), then by all means, make an example of out of them of such a scale that it'll serve as a notice to anyone else who gets funny ideas about the way things should be. If tomorrow the Greek government was to raid GD offices, procure its member lists, and then snatch every single member it could find and transfer them to mass graves, it would probably be quite a few decades or longer until any other group ever tries to imitate Golden Dawn's belief system. This is a terrible idea for any number of reasons. First of all, it should be perfectly obvious why the state should never be allowed to carry out extralegal mass murder of its citizens, on a political basis or otherwise. To imagine that such a precedent couldn't be immediately and extensively "abused" is extremely naïve and yet cynical at the same time. If nothing else, the fact that a lot of people view anarchists and communists as people with "funny ideas about how things should be" should argue for caution with this sort of argument. Secondly, it could very well turn out to be massively counterproductive. The state turning to mass murder would probably only serve to destabilize the country and isolate it internationally. And by making them fear for their safety, it could also force fellow travelers and sympathizers of GD (among, say, the police and military) into action, creating an enemy far more powerful than GD in itself could ever hope to be. Finally, I think you might be overestimating how effective murder is as a countermeasure, especially if it isn’t followed by sustained repression. rudatron posted:No you're right, it wouldn't be useful right now. But if you aren't willing to do it when it is useful, you'll end up in a fascist state. How is it possible to determine when it’s useful? And can you really not see the problem with suspending the rule of law and murdering your political opponents en masse? I find it really surprising that people actually think that it’s possible to have just a teensy bit of mass murder and then have things go right back to normal again. Vernii posted:And the international community would do nothing. No one would be punished for it, and chances are there wouldn't even be that much complaining. No (sensible) politician anywhere is going to stand up for the 'rights' of fascist scum. That said, it was merely an example of how disproportionate force can be a useful tool. How can you be sure of that? And it's not really who the victims are (not that it's supposed to make any difference as far as human rights are concerned) as much as it is the principles that are violated. Greece has international obligations that pretty much force several international organizations to take measures if Greece were to use mass murder in order to suppress political opposition.
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Nov 2, 2013 10:29
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Emden posted:Fascism holds that the primary group is the racial group thus racial states. There's also the problems of class, sexual identity and the like which would have to be solved in an appropriate manner (if at all) for each state. Personally I think socialism and in general the eradication of liberalism would solve these problems.  But seriously get hosed
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Nov 2, 2013 10:29
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Strudel Man posted:To be frank, I don't really think there's anyone's judgement I would trust as to the determination of when mass murder is "useful." Not even my own. That's the kind of thing that I'd want there to be very little uncertainty on, and I'm just not convinced that we have the theoretical understanding to make that kind of judgement with confidence. Like, let me put it this way: I don't see why you would, if you were the enemies of political enemies of GD, attack GD and then not politicize that attack. I say wait and see for a bit, before we assume who did it. Sakarja posted:How is it possible to determine when it’s useful? And can you really not see the problem with suspending the rule of law and murdering your political opponents en masse? I find it really surprising that people actually think that it’s possible to have just a teensy bit of mass murder and then have things go right back to normal again. Sometimes, it is impossible for things to go back to the way they were, however much you'd like them to. That is called history. It's not useful right now, because such a situation doesn't yet exist, and trying to bring about its existence would be incredibly cruel and idiotic. A lot of people would die for no real good reason. An internal blanket ban on any kind of leftist future political violence for the purposes of keeping a 'moral highground' (of dubious value) is, however, misguided. rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 10:41
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rudatron posted:Like, let me put it this way: I don't see why you would, if you were the enemies of political enemies of GD, attack GD and then not politicize that attack. Perhaps it was political and they're simply letting the GD worry about it for now.
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Nov 2, 2013 10:46
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Vernii posted:McNamara isn't the best figure to learn lessons from. The appropriateness of a proportional response is entirely dependent on the situation. If a group (like GD) needs to be nipped in the bud before it becomes a problem, but currently has no way to escalate the situation (like overthrowing the government), then by all means, make an example of out of them of such a scale that it'll serve as a notice to anyone else who gets funny ideas about the way things should be. If tomorrow the Greek government was to raid GD offices, procure its member lists, and then snatch every single member it could find and transfer them to mass graves, it would probably be quite a few decades or longer until any other group ever tries to imitate Golden Dawn's belief system. rudatron posted:Rule of law is contingent on one political ideology having hegemony over the others. When that hegemony no longer exists, a power struggle will necessarily break out. That is one example of when political violence is absolutely necessary. If you're not willing to use it then you will be strung up by fascists. That's how civil wars work. My point remains the same. Proportionality should be a guideline. The level of violence you would inflict against fascists in a civil war would be different than in a state of not-civil war. The level of anti-fascist Maximum Violence against fascism is not proportional at all times. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 11:21
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You didn't like that 'anti-fascists were resembling fascists' because they are willing to use violence to achieve their objectives. You dehumanized them as 'being driven by primordial hatred'. My point was that it's a strategic decision and, while I may disagree with it, I disagree with it on the terms of practicality - you disagree with it based on some misguided ideas about how law and order operates, and you essentialize radicals as fundamentally different from ordinary people (which is not the case).
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Nov 2, 2013 11:33
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TJO posted:I imagine you'd feel less disgusted if you or yours was one of the targeted people. Fascist groups succeed because they redirect legitimate anger towards weak targets, they present a narrative blaming X non-power group and try to legitimise hurting them as a way to make the fascist feel empowered and to redirect attention from their actual enemies. If I were one of the targeted people (which as a socialist I actually am) I'd be afraid that this could help them get in power. And of course I loving grasp that aggressive behaviour isn't a joke, that's why I'm loving disappointed at all the dumbasses here going "yeha kill the fascists murder the whole lot". Ambrose Burnside posted:Seems like an awfully big gamble to swear off violently resisting fascism forever based off of a sample size of: one (1), and a sample with innumerable complicating factors simultaneously at play beyond just "violence against fascists/public sympathy for fascism" to boot. In my opinion, murder is never good. Violent reaction can be fine though, such as when it manifested in massive protests and attacks on Golden Dawn offices after Physsas' murder. As a strategy, it depends entirely on whether the broader populace will see the violence as justified or not. Omi-Polari posted:And can I say that talking about what to do / what not to do in Weimar freaking Germany is really boring? We're not living in freaking Weimar. Well maybe you aren't, but that just tells me you don't quite realise what situation Greece is in. Job Truniht posted:I'm willing to speculate: Germany and the European Union in general won't tolerate a fascist government in Greece. There's already enormous international pressure for the Greek government to clean up its act. Eh, they haven't been making much of a fuss over Hungary. Germany and the EU don't seem to mind far-right governments much. Vernii posted:I subscribe to a rather pragmatic view of ethics, I think is the best way to put it. History is determined by the victor. If Nazi Germany had its way, millions of people would have simply never existed. They have families and friends. rudatron posted:Rule of law is contingent on one political ideology having hegemony over the others. When that hegemony no longer exists, a power struggle will necessarily break out. That is one example of when political violence is absolutely necessary. If you're not willing to use it then you will be strung up by fascists. That's how civil wars work. All I can read here is "yeha let's have a civil war that's gonna be so cool #BashTheFash #YOLO". Very easy to say when said civil war would happen in a far-away country. Will we be able to count on your aid when the time comes and the Goon Expeditionary Force arrives, comrade?
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