Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
baquerd
Jul 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless

oye como va posted:

There's no holding period for my employer's ESPP and I have enough liquid cash to do this each month.

I appreciate the information!

Since you (wisely) did not mention the company, there is a caveat here. If you're working for a relatively small or growth-focused company, you may not want to just flip your shares because the idea behind a stock purchase plan is to get employees personally invested in the future of the company. Think of early Amazon or Google employees selling their stock as soon as they got it - they'd want to eat a bullet these days over their decision.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me

baquerd posted:

Think of early Amazon or Google employees selling their stock as soon as they got it - they'd want to eat a bullet these days over their decision.

As a side note to this, many employees have their future career and future vesting stock gains invested in the company, so selling early may not be a bad decision either. If the company is barely starting is a tech startup, I understand why you wouldn't sell stock, however. Just note that you're actively gambling in your company.

Guy Axlerod
Dec 29, 2008
If your company is that small, and/or isn't publicly traded, you may have trouble selling the shares. There may not be a buyer, or there may be a significant bid/ask spread.

INTJ Mastermind
Dec 30, 2004

It's a radial!
Owning shares of your own company is a terrible idea. If the company goes down, then you're out of a job and your portfolio is screwed

Kilty Monroe
Dec 27, 2006

Upon the frozen fields of arctic Strana Mechty, the Ghost Dads lie in wait, preparing to ambush their prey with their zippin' and zoppin' and ziggy-zoop-boppin'.

INTJ Mastermind posted:

Owning shares of your own company is a terrible idea. If the company goes down, then you're out of a job and your portfolio is screwed

If you can get the shares at a discount, though, it can be worth it, just as getting your 401k match is worth it even if it only offers lovely funds.

Otherwise, you're right though. If you must hold company stock, don't let it become a huge part of your portfolio.

SpelledBackwards
Jan 7, 2001

I found this image on the Internet, perhaps you've heard of it? It's been around for a while I hear.

More ESPP: I'm a little curious if someone can clear up the taxation issues of long-term capital gains vs. disqualifying disposition. My ESPP is similar to the first poster in this part of the thread - 15% discount off the lower of two prices: 1st day of offer period or last day of offer period (3 months). Since I can afford to go without the regular cash flow, I devote the maximum amount of my income I can (15%) to the ESPP, and I'm allowed to sell off as soon as it comes through into my account.

As I understand it, I have to hold the stock for 1 year from the purchase date to avoid short-term capital gains and swap it over to long-term. And I have to hold for 2 years from the initial offer date to go from disqualifying to qualifying disposition (so 1 year and 9 months from purchase date in my case). I just don't understand under what situations I'd be basically just as good off selling in that 1-2 year window on a reasonable local maximum in price vs. holding for the full 2 years to be qualifying. Every time my coworker and I try to understand it and read up more, I end up more confused. The best I think I was able to see it summarized as was: if the shares jumped in price dramatically between the offer date and purchase date, then you're better off waiting the full 2 years. Otherwise, sell any time after 1. Is that right?

Monokeros deAstris
Nov 7, 2006
which means Magical Space Unicorn

I've been learning a lot about investment over the past about 6 months, including from this thread, and it's become obvious that I've made a few mistakes -- nothing big, and all from a very advantageous position. But I need some advice about the best way to proceed.

I've been at my current job, my first with a really good salary, since early 2012. Employer match starts after 12 months, so I've only been seriously contributing to my 401k since early this year. Before this job, I wasn't making any money to speak of, so I've never contributed to an IRA. On the other hand, my current job pays very well, and I'm right on the border where the Roth IRA limits start to hit. I live simply, and so I'm saving very heavily for now.

I made two major mistakes so far this year:

1) I thought that the employer match counted towards the 401k contribution limit, so I was under-contributing.
2) I thought that I couldn't contribute to a Roth IRA, or at least, the amount I could contribute would be small due to the phase-out.

Mistake 1 has been corrected; a few months ago I set my contribution limits high enough to hit the limit in mid-December.

Mistake 2 is in the process of being corrected. My employer offers both traditional and Roth 410k, and I've been splitting between the two because I couldn't figure out which was better (I'm still pretty happy with this decision). But my extra contributions to solve 1 all are going into traditional, so my MAGI will be comfortably low enough to make a full contribution to a Roth IRA. I'm just waiting until January to be absolutely sure, then I'll dump in the max for 2013.

However, in the process of making mistake 2, I opened a taxable Vanguard account and dumped $10k into Total Stock, plus a bit since then. (Oh no, such a terrible decision. Yes, it's part of my overall asset allocation.) My question is, is there any way to "move" this into a Roth IRA when I make my 2013 contributions? I'm guessing that the answer is no, and that I will need to sell $5500 worth of the fund, suck it up and pay short-term capital gains taxes, move that $5500 into a Roth IRA, and then re-buy VTSMX. (Also my taxable VTSAX will turn into VTSMX because I'll drop below $10k.) Is this correct? Or is there some way I can avoid paying extra taxes on these gains?

My second question is about 2014 IRA contributions. I don't have specific plans, but there is a real possibility that I will move to a new job next year, which would probably come with a substantial raise -- possibly enough to push me out of Roth IRA eligibility entirely. So my question is about what to do in January for 2014:
- Go ahead and contribute $5500 to a Roth IRA, and then fix it somehow if necessary?
- Contribute $5500 to a traditional post-tax IRA and immediately roll it over to a Roth (ie "backdoor Roth")?
- Wait until January 2015 to see if I can safely contribute for 2014, and if not, backdoor Roth?

I'm happy with asset allocation, rebalancing plan, emergency fund, etc. My available 401k funds are excellent. I feel that my major risks are behavioral; any choice I leave myself is just a way for me to gently caress myself over. So I'd prefer any advice to be algorithmic, rather than rely on my fleshy human judgement. Thanks!

Kilty Monroe
Dec 27, 2006

Upon the frozen fields of arctic Strana Mechty, the Ghost Dads lie in wait, preparing to ambush their prey with their zippin' and zoppin' and ziggy-zoop-boppin'.

SpelledBackwards posted:

More ESPP: I'm a little curious if someone can clear up the taxation issues of long-term capital gains vs. disqualifying disposition. My ESPP is similar to the first poster in this part of the thread - 15% discount off the lower of two prices: 1st day of offer period or last day of offer period (3 months). Since I can afford to go without the regular cash flow, I devote the maximum amount of my income I can (15%) to the ESPP, and I'm allowed to sell off as soon as it comes through into my account.

As I understand it, I have to hold the stock for 1 year from the purchase date to avoid short-term capital gains and swap it over to long-term. And I have to hold for 2 years from the initial offer date to go from disqualifying to qualifying disposition (so 1 year and 9 months from purchase date in my case). I just don't understand under what situations I'd be basically just as good off selling in that 1-2 year window on a reasonable local maximum in price vs. holding for the full 2 years to be qualifying. Every time my coworker and I try to understand it and read up more, I end up more confused. The best I think I was able to see it summarized as was: if the shares jumped in price dramatically between the offer date and purchase date, then you're better off waiting the full 2 years. Otherwise, sell any time after 1. Is that right?

I went to go look it up and it is a lot more confusing than I had realized. I think you've gotten it mostly right, though. The discount on the offer date price is always taxed as ordinary income, and any gains after the actual purchase date are always taxed as capital gains. The difference between offer price and purchase date price is what changes from ordinary income to capital gains after the 2-year period. The greater the difference, the more tempting it is to wait out the clock.

If you have the ability to dump the stock as soon as you buy it, though, then there's no reason to hold it for just a year, as the only gains you'll get long-term rates on are those gained during that year you hold it after purchasing. Either go for the full two years or dump it right away.

A lot can happen to an individual stock in two years, though, and you'll have to ask yourself if it's really worth the risk. Even if you're very highly compensated, the difference between long-term capital gains and ordinary income tax rates is only ~20%. If your stock loses even a fifth of the difference between offer price and purchase date price over those two years, you've wiped out all your tax savings. If your income is closer to the median, the difference in tax rates can be as low as 10%.

SpelledBackwards
Jan 7, 2001

I found this image on the Internet, perhaps you've heard of it? It's been around for a while I hear.

Kilty Monroe posted:

I went to go look it up and it is a lot more confusing than I had realized. I think you've gotten it mostly right, though. The discount on the offer date price is always taxed as ordinary income, and any gains after the actual purchase date are always taxed as capital gains. The difference between offer price and purchase date price is what changes from ordinary income to capital gains after the 2-year period. The greater the difference, the more tempting it is to wait out the clock.

If you have the ability to dump the stock as soon as you buy it, though, then there's no reason to hold it for just a year, as the only gains you'll get long-term rates on are those gained during that year you hold it after purchasing. Either go for the full two years or dump it right away.

A lot can happen to an individual stock in two years, though, and you'll have to ask yourself if it's really worth the risk. Even if you're very highly compensated, the difference between long-term capital gains and ordinary income tax rates is only ~20%. If your stock loses even a fifth of the difference between offer price and purchase date price over those two years, you've wiped out all your tax savings. If your income is closer to the median, the difference in tax rates can be as low as 10%.

Thanks, that's really helpful. Right now I have two year's worth of 3 month lots I'm holding (Nov 1 was another purchase day, so by week's end I will have one more lot) and was just in the habit of selling 1 lot every 3 months so I always had that rolling 2 year window of holdings. In reality I usually waited for local maxima to sell, as our stock is fairly cyclical in price (yes I realize that past performance does not guarantee future gains).

Now that I think about it, that 2 year holdings means some 30+% of my annual income is directly tied up in company stock at any given time. Only reason I'm eager to sell now is because after our Q3 announcement on Thursday, our stock shot up ~10% and is back to near historic highs again, so I wouldn't be sad selling at least down to one year holdings after reading up on the tax implications. Use maybe 5-10% off that to treat myself and make home improvements, and throw the rest into my taxable retirement account until I decide I want to buy a different house or whatever. (Roth IRA is already maxed this year)

Since I'm flexible on not needing the cash during the offer period and can sell to supplement my income at each purchase period, I think the next step is to use my open enrollment period now to up my pre-tax 401(k) contributions from the maximized company match to something even larger and see how my budgeting goes. Thanks again!

I Love Topanga
Oct 3, 2003
$5,500. Is it a better decision for me to open a ROTH IRA for my 29 year old wife with no retirement savings or pay off a 13.25% Credit Line?

ETB
Nov 8, 2009

Yeah, I'm that guy.

I Love Topanga posted:

$5,500. Is it a better decision for me to open a ROTH IRA for my 29 year old wife with no retirement savings or pay off a 13.25% Credit Line?

Credit line, hands down.

flowinprose
Sep 11, 2001

Where were you? .... when they built that ladder to heaven...

I Love Topanga posted:

$5,500. Is it a better decision for me to open a ROTH IRA for my 29 year old wife with no retirement savings or pay off a 13.25% Credit Line?

I don't think you will find anyone who would argue against paying down that high of interest debt. The only thing that would perhaps come before that would be 401k matching if it was good enough.

Greatbacon
Apr 9, 2012

by Pragmatica
So I just started my career and part of my benefits package is a matched 401k through Wells Fargo.

I've got my contributions set to match the max my employer offers but I'm still a little unsure about the portfolio ratio.

The default spread was just putting everything into a T. Rowe Price Retirement 2050 fund, but I don't really know enough to mess around with other indexes, spreads, etc.

Any advice on what (and why) to do or at least a direction I can go in to start doing some research?

theHUNGERian
Feb 23, 2006

Greatbacon posted:

So I just started my career and part of my benefits package is a matched 401k through Wells Fargo.

I've got my contributions set to match the max my employer offers but I'm still a little unsure about the portfolio ratio.

The default spread was just putting everything into a T. Rowe Price Retirement 2050 fund, but I don't really know enough to mess around with other indexes, spreads, etc.

Any advice on what (and why) to do or at least a direction I can go in to start doing some research?

I think people will be able to help more if you write down the available index funds along with their expense ratios. The argument against a target date retirement fund is that it most likely has a larger expense ratio (~0.5%) than index funds that are (hopefully) available (<0.1%).

Greatbacon
Apr 9, 2012

by Pragmatica

theHUNGERian posted:

I think people will be able to help more if you write down the available index funds along with their expense ratios. The argument against a target date retirement fund is that it most likely has a larger expense ratio (~0.5%) than index funds that are (hopefully) available (<0.1%).

Okay, here's all the available listings (although I cut out all the T. Rowe retirements except the 2050):

Dodge and Cox Stock Fund : DODGX : .52 %
Fidelity Contrafund : FCNTX : .74 %
Artisan Mid Cap Inv : ARTMX : 1.33%
Neuberger Berman Genesis : NBGEX : 1.11%
American Funds Growth : RGAEX : .69 %
Oakmark Equity & Income : OAKBX : .78 %
PIMCO Total Return Instl : PTTRX : .46 %
T. Rowe Price Retire 2050: TRRMX : .78 %
Harbor International Inst: HAINX : .77 %
Hartford Small Co HLS IB : HDMBX : .97 %
AllianzGI NFJ Small-Cap : PSVIX : . 86%

then there's 2 listings without codes:

Wells Fargo Stable Return Fund N15 : .471%
WF/ BlackRock S&P500 Index CIT N5 : .09%

theHUNGERian
Feb 23, 2006

Greatbacon posted:

Okay, here's all the available listings (although I cut out all the T. Rowe retirements except the 2050):

Dodge and Cox Stock Fund : DODGX : .52 %
Fidelity Contrafund : FCNTX : .74 %
Artisan Mid Cap Inv : ARTMX : 1.33%
Neuberger Berman Genesis : NBGEX : 1.11%
American Funds Growth : RGAEX : .69 %
Oakmark Equity & Income : OAKBX : .78 %
PIMCO Total Return Instl : PTTRX : .46 %
T. Rowe Price Retire 2050: TRRMX : .78 %
Harbor International Inst: HAINX : .77 %
Hartford Small Co HLS IB : HDMBX : .97 %
AllianzGI NFJ Small-Cap : PSVIX : . 86%

then there's 2 listings without codes:

Wells Fargo Stable Return Fund N15 : .471%
WF/ BlackRock S&P500 Index CIT N5 : .09%

The good news is that you have a 500 index fund, the one at the very bottom. The bad news is that there don't seem to be any other index funds you can diversify with.

For now, it's certainly fine to put all your money into the S&P500 index fund, but if after ~3 years you are still limited to these options, you'll have to figure out how to diversify. You should probably wait until some of the veterans chime in.

ETB
Nov 8, 2009

Yeah, I'm that guy.
That's pretty much the only option without suffering from those high expense ratios. If you will eventually contribute to a Roth IRA, you could do your remaining diversification there...

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me

theHUNGERian posted:

The good news is that you have a 500 index fund, the one at the very bottom. The bad news is that there don't seem to be any other index funds you can diversify with.

For now, it's certainly fine to put all your money into the S&P500 index fund, but if after ~3 years you are still limited to these options, you'll have to figure out how to diversify. You should probably wait until some of the veterans chime in.

Yup, Open a Roth account with Vanguard, and put 30% of your total stock portfolio (including 401k) into the Total International Stock Fund, and about 15-20% into the Vanguard Extended Market Fund. If you invest in bonds, those will also need to be in your Roth. You eventually should, but you seem to be just starting your career (aka, less than 30 years of age).

Roll over when you leave the company :)

Greatbacon
Apr 9, 2012

by Pragmatica

ETB posted:

That's pretty much the only option without suffering from those high expense ratios. If you will eventually contribute to a Roth IRA, you could do your remaining diversification there...

Yeah I plan on opening a Roth pretty much as soon as I finish paying off my student debt, so I'll probably come back then with some more questions.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
Is it possible/advisable to roll over an employer Roth 401k to a Roth IRA?

Hattusa
Jul 23, 2007

Time to cut back

bam thwok posted:

Is it possible/advisable to roll over an employer Roth 401k to a Roth IRA?

Yup. It's as easy as regular 401k-IRA conversions. Whether it's advisable is between your employer, Vanguard, and their respective fund expense ratios.

SpelledBackwards
Jan 7, 2001

I found this image on the Internet, perhaps you've heard of it? It's been around for a while I hear.

What about consolidating Roth IRAs? I'd like to convert my old Mainstay Roth IRA into the new Vanguard one I opened for this year's contributions.

I Love Topanga
Oct 3, 2003

ETB posted:

Credit line, hands down.

Now that we have that squared away. Maybe you guys can help me with my 401(k) I currently have everything in FID FREEDOM K 2050.

Here is what is available with expense ratios:

Large Cap
BLKRK EQUITY DIV I: 0.72
FID CONTRAFUND : 0.74
SPTN 500 INDEX INST : 0.05

Mid Cap
ARTISAN MID CAP VAL: 1.2
FID LOW PRICED STK : 0.8
SPTN EXT MKT IDX ADV :0.07

Small Cap
FID SM CAP DISCOVERY: 1.06
LD ABBETT DEV GRTH I: 0.77
PERKINS SMCP VALUE I: 0.71
WFA SM CAP VAL INST: 0.93

International
COL/ACORN INTL Z: 0.95
FID DIVERSIFD INTL: 1.01
HARBOR INTL INST: 0.78
OPP DEVELOPING MKT: Y 1.03
SPTN INTL INDEX ADV: 0.17

Blended Fund Investments*
every FID FREEDOM K
FID PURITAN: 0.58

Bond Investments
PIM TOTAL RT INST: 0.46
SPTN LT TR IDX ADV: 0.10
SPTN US BOND IDX IS: 0.07
DFA INF PRT SEC PORT: 0.13

Short Term Investments
FID RETIRE MMKT 0.42:



I also have about 10k in a 401k from a previous job that has different funds available.

INTJ Mastermind
Dec 30, 2004

It's a radial!

I Love Topanga posted:

SPTN 500 INDEX INST : 0.05
SPTN EXT MKT IDX ADV :0.07
SPTN INTL INDEX ADV: 0.17
SPTN US BOND IDX IS: 0.07

These are the funds you should be looking at. To approximate the total domestic stock market, use a 80:20 ratio between the 500 index and the extended market. I personally use a 50:50 ratio between domestic and international stocks, and a 80:20 stock:bond ratio.

So...

32% SPTN 500 INDEX INST : 0.05
8% SPTN EXT MKT IDX ADV :0.07
40% SPTN INTL INDEX ADV: 0.17
20% SPTN US BOND IDX IS: 0.07

Hufflepuff or bust!
Jan 28, 2005

I should have known better.
I have a Roth IRA with Sharebuilder that I would like to roll over into my Vanguard account. I just found out, to my unhappy surprise, that there is a ridiculous fee or something like $75 to close out my account with Sharebuilder. Alternatively, I believe I can sell all the funds(I only have 3) for $6.95 a trade, and then transfer all the money to my bank account, and then make a deposit into Vanguard of the exact same amount.

Is this dumb? What forms do I need to make sure I file to do this correctly? I know that I have limited time period.

Harry
Jun 13, 2003

I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW

kaishek posted:

I have a Roth IRA with Sharebuilder that I would like to roll over into my Vanguard account. I just found out, to my unhappy surprise, that there is a ridiculous fee or something like $75 to close out my account with Sharebuilder. Alternatively, I believe I can sell all the funds(I only have 3) for $6.95 a trade, and then transfer all the money to my bank account, and then make a deposit into Vanguard of the exact same amount.

Is this dumb? What forms do I need to make sure I file to do this correctly? I know that I have limited time period.

You can almost definitely not transfer that money to your bank account and then to Vanguard. In fact, that's like the classic IRA trap.

80k
Jul 3, 2004

careful!

kaishek posted:

I have a Roth IRA with Sharebuilder that I would like to roll over into my Vanguard account. I just found out, to my unhappy surprise, that there is a ridiculous fee or something like $75 to close out my account with Sharebuilder. Alternatively, I believe I can sell all the funds(I only have 3) for $6.95 a trade, and then transfer all the money to my bank account, and then make a deposit into Vanguard of the exact same amount.

Is this dumb? What forms do I need to make sure I file to do this correctly? I know that I have limited time period.

You should be able to do this. They will deduct 20% of your distribution for taxes. You have to make up the difference and put the entire amount into your Vanguard IRA, meaning you have to make up the 20% gap with your own money. And then it must be done within 60 days. Upon your tax return, mark it as a rollover and you will get your money back as a refund.

80k fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Nov 7, 2013

DaveSauce
Feb 15, 2004

Oh, how awkward.
I've been out in the real world for several years now, and I've had 3 jobs that have netted me retirement accounts.

The first I was booted out of, but that was a windfall. I worked as an intern for this company for about 8 months, and apparently they were supposed to have offered me a 401(k) but they didn't. So there was a class action thing and out of the blue they gave me a JPMorgan account for some amount that they calculated they owed for regular contributions + matching (ended up being about $2,000). 100% free money, but I very quickly got kicked out of the account so I rolled it over to a Wells Fargo rollover IRA (they were my bank at the time and I was lazy).

The other 2 are 401(k) accounts from jobs that I no longer work at. I get screwed out of a small amount due to vesting (or lack thereof), but in general they total about $6,000. So by my guess, I have about $8k in 3 different retirement accounts.

I figure that I already have 3 401(k) accounts, and I will probably have #4 in less than a year. At least in my line of work, people tend to move to new jobs every 3-5 years, so as these things start to pile up I worry that I'll lose track of them eventually.

So my question is: Where's a good place to stash this money (NOT wells fargo)?

I have been told that Fidelity is a good option, but I've been reading more that Vanguard is a better place to put money. Is this correct?

Follow up: What's a good option for a personal retirement account? Roth IRA? Most places are contract-to-hire these days, so every time I get a new job there will be a 6-month period where I'm on contract, then in my experience another 12-18 months until I'm eligible for the company's 401(k). I'll need somewhere to stash money for those periods.

Hufflepuff or bust!
Jan 28, 2005

I should have known better.

Harry posted:

You can almost definitely not transfer that money to your bank account and then to Vanguard. In fact, that's like the classic IRA trap.

80k posted:

You should be able to do this. They will deduct 20% of your distribution for taxes. You have to make up the difference and put the entire amount into your Vanguard IRA, meaning you have to make up the 20% gap with your own money. And then it must be done within 60 days. Upon your tax return, mark it as a rollover and you will get your money back as a refund.

What 80k says matches what I have seen (I will have to fill in the 20%, which will be easy because it is a tiny account, only $600), but I am nervous about it being a "trap" and me doing something wrong and owing taxes. Can anyone break the tie here, or is this question better suited for the Tax thread?

Harry
Jun 13, 2003

I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW
He is describing is a normal IRA rollover. I'm not sure if that applies to Roths. Even if it does work, the main problem I see with the plan even if it works, is that Sharebuilder will report to the IRS the amount you withdrew at the end of the year since you never deposited back.

Kilty Monroe
Dec 27, 2006

Upon the frozen fields of arctic Strana Mechty, the Ghost Dads lie in wait, preparing to ambush their prey with their zippin' and zoppin' and ziggy-zoop-boppin'.

DaveSauce posted:

I've been out in the real world for several years now, and I've had 3 jobs that have netted me retirement accounts.

The first I was booted out of, but that was a windfall. I worked as an intern for this company for about 8 months, and apparently they were supposed to have offered me a 401(k) but they didn't. So there was a class action thing and out of the blue they gave me a JPMorgan account for some amount that they calculated they owed for regular contributions + matching (ended up being about $2,000). 100% free money, but I very quickly got kicked out of the account so I rolled it over to a Wells Fargo rollover IRA (they were my bank at the time and I was lazy).

The other 2 are 401(k) accounts from jobs that I no longer work at. I get screwed out of a small amount due to vesting (or lack thereof), but in general they total about $6,000. So by my guess, I have about $8k in 3 different retirement accounts.

I figure that I already have 3 401(k) accounts, and I will probably have #4 in less than a year. At least in my line of work, people tend to move to new jobs every 3-5 years, so as these things start to pile up I worry that I'll lose track of them eventually.

So my question is: Where's a good place to stash this money (NOT wells fargo)?

I have been told that Fidelity is a good option, but I've been reading more that Vanguard is a better place to put money. Is this correct?

Follow up: What's a good option for a personal retirement account? Roth IRA? Most places are contract-to-hire these days, so every time I get a new job there will be a 6-month period where I'm on contract, then in my experience another 12-18 months until I'm eligible for the company's 401(k). I'll need somewhere to stash money for those periods.

Either Vanguard or Fidelity are fine, I'd say they're the #1 and #2 choices in places to put your retirement money. Vanguard specializes in a wide array of low-cost index funds. Fidelity doesn't, but they do have their "Spartan" series of core index funds that are competitive with Vanguard's funds and should be sufficient for building a diverse portfolio. Fidelity also offers a sweet American Express rewards card that gives you 2% cash back straight into your retirement account. If you have excellent credit, that can make Fidelity more attractive, otherwise I'd just stick with Vanguard.

Whichever you go with, you're going to want to roll over all those old 401ks into an IRA, probably a Roth. Understand the difference between Roth and traditional IRAs before you commit, though. You'll have to pay taxes on them as income if you roll them over to a Roth.

Kilty Monroe fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Nov 7, 2013

Tony Montana
Aug 6, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
I've been doing a fair bit of reading and really the fly in the ointment of index investing in Australia is the lack of tax sheltered accounts. If you put it into your superannuation fund you can't draw it it out until you're 60, there is a stack of legislation surrounding this. If you just keep it in a regular savings account it's part of your taxable income and that fucks me right up - even if I create a trust and have the tax limited to 30% (company rates) it's still counted in my taxable income which includes what I earn as wages.

As I'm overseas and am going to work next year in the UK, I was thinking how to get around this. Now if you're an Australian citizen for tax purposes (different to if you hold a passport etc, basically if you've earned taxable income in Australia in that financial year) you need to declare any overseas earnings on your Aussie tax return. So if I had an account in Australia, invested in a portfolio of equities, earned return on those equities - not only I'd be paying tax in Australia on it I would also have to declare my UK income which gets included in my taxable income (even if I've already paid tax in the UK, I have count it before tax and apply to have the tax I already paid returned) along with my investment returns.

I initially thought, ooh I'll do investment in Australia and work in the UK and no-one will know about the other and basically run two separate taxable incomes. Somehow the Australian Tax Office knows more about tax than I do, been through this all before and this is a type of tax fraud.

So I'm thinking how to try and get around this.. I started Google alternate places to put money and invest from. Switzerland.. the tax rate is astonishingly low, they're separated from the EURO because they kept their own currency so the silly poo poo the Greeks and Spaniards are up to which is pissing the Germans right off doesn't really effect them.. I've just spent some time there and they're a super modern, impressive country. Now I thought being an EU citizen would allow me to do this, but looking into it and anyone can open a Swiss bank account. Why isn't this a good idea? If it's all happening online anyway, Switzerland isn't like putting your money in Zimbabwe or something. Before I even start looking at ETFs traded on the Swiss exchange, why not just trade from where you pay the least tax (assuming you come from a dumb place that doesn't do tax sheltered structures for stock investors)?

cowofwar
Jul 30, 2002

by Athanatos

Tony Montana posted:

I've been doing a fair bit of reading and really the fly in the ointment of index investing in Australia is the lack of tax sheltered accounts. If you put it into your superannuation fund you can't draw it it out until you're 60, there is a stack of legislation surrounding this. If you just keep it in a regular savings account it's part of your taxable income and that fucks me right up - even if I create a trust and have the tax limited to 30% (company rates) it's still counted in my taxable income which includes what I earn as wages.

As I'm overseas and am going to work next year in the UK, I was thinking how to get around this. Now if you're an Australian citizen for tax purposes (different to if you hold a passport etc, basically if you've earned taxable income in Australia in that financial year) you need to declare any overseas earnings on your Aussie tax return. So if I had an account in Australia, invested in a portfolio of equities, earned return on those equities - not only I'd be paying tax in Australia on it I would also have to declare my UK income which gets included in my taxable income (even if I've already paid tax in the UK, I have count it before tax and apply to have the tax I already paid returned) along with my investment returns.

I initially thought, ooh I'll do investment in Australia and work in the UK and no-one will know about the other and basically run two separate taxable incomes. Somehow the Australian Tax Office knows more about tax than I do, been through this all before and this is a type of tax fraud.

So I'm thinking how to try and get around this.. I started Google alternate places to put money and invest from. Switzerland.. the tax rate is astonishingly low, they're separated from the EURO because they kept their own currency so the silly poo poo the Greeks and Spaniards are up to which is pissing the Germans right off doesn't really effect them.. I've just spent some time there and they're a super modern, impressive country. Now I thought being an EU citizen would allow me to do this, but looking into it and anyone can open a Swiss bank account. Why isn't this a good idea? If it's all happening online anyway, Switzerland isn't like putting your money in Zimbabwe or something. Before I even start looking at ETFs traded on the Swiss exchange, why not just trade from where you pay the least tax (assuming you come from a dumb place that doesn't do tax sheltered structures for stock investors)?
Unless it's an Australia government registered tax shelter you're going to have to declare it and pay taxes on it. Otherwise it's tax fraud at best.

80k
Jul 3, 2004

careful!

Harry posted:

He is describing is a normal IRA rollover. I'm not sure if that applies to Roths. Even if it does work, the main problem I see with the plan even if it works, is that Sharebuilder will report to the IRS the amount you withdrew at the end of the year since you never deposited back.

With Roths, it is even easier, since there is no 20% deduction I believe. Sharebuilder will report it to the IRS no matter if you redeposit it back or not. It is the simple fact that you touched the money that requires the reporting. It is not a "problem" with the plan... It is how it works. Marking it as a rollover at tax time on your tax return is normal procedure.

Tony Montana
Aug 6, 2005

by FactsAreUseless

cowofwar posted:

Unless it's an Australia government registered tax shelter you're going to have to declare it and pay taxes on it. Otherwise it's tax fraud at best.

Not if I'm not an Australian resident for tax purposes, basically I don't do any business in Australia at all. The way I understand it now if you remove all of your interests from Australia and have no Australian taxable income, they say ok then, gently caress you too and take care of yourself. I'll have to confirm this, but that's how I believe it works.

http://www.six-swiss-exchange.com/funds/security_info_en.html?id=IE00B3XXRP09CHF4

Am I reading that right? MER of .09% and it's been only going since Feb of this year and grown 17%?

cowofwar
Jul 30, 2002

by Athanatos

Tony Montana posted:

Not if I'm not an Australian resident for tax purposes, basically I don't do any business in Australia at all. The way I understand it now if you remove all of your interests from Australia and have no Australian taxable income, they say ok then, gently caress you too and take care of yourself. I'll have to confirm this, but that's how I believe it works.

http://www.six-swiss-exchange.com/funds/security_info_en.html?id=IE00B3XXRP09CHF4

Am I reading that right? MER of .09% and it's been only going since Feb of this year and grown 17%?
Maybe. You'd definitely have to check with the country because I know in the US you can't get around it unless you give up citizenship.

Tony Montana
Aug 6, 2005

by FactsAreUseless

cowofwar posted:

Maybe. You'd definitely have to check with the country because I know in the US you can't get around it unless you give up citizenship.

Ok, will do. Assuming I am correct though, what do you think of this approach? The risks I see is if there is any funny business I don't know the Swiss legal system as I know the Australian and if I had to take some kind of action I wouldn't know where to start. However, I would think this would be a remote risk - the credibility of Swiss banks is legendary and from what I saw they were almost German in their meticulous attention to detail and perfection. The currency trading is an added aspect also, just timing that correctly generates returns in itself (another complication).

edit: I reckon I've confirmed it, but also also contact the ATO and ask them directly. It seems fairly clear cut though, the ATO's own site actually has a test to confirm your tax residency. People that aren't actual Australian citizens (immigration purposes, you have a passport, etc) can be Australian tax residents and people that are natural born citizens can be non-residents and are not obliged to lodge Aussie tax returns.

If you cease Australian tax residency
As a non-resident you will only need to submit an income tax return if you have any Australian sourced income, such as from rental income or the sale of an Australian property. You do not need to lodge an Australian income tax return if the only Australian-source income you receive is interest, dividends or royalties that has had the correct amount of non-resident withholding tax taken from it.


This doesn't mean I renounce my citizenship. Curiouser and curiouser..

Tony Montana fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Nov 7, 2013

ntan1
Apr 29, 2009

sempai noticed me

cowofwar posted:

Maybe. You'd definitely have to check with the country because I know in the US you can't get around it unless you give up citizenship.

The US is one of the only countries which taxes foreign income even if you are an expat.

Minty Swagger
Sep 8, 2005

Ribbit Ribbit Real Good

Kilty Monroe posted:

Fidelity also offers a sweet American Express rewards card that gives you 2% cash back straight into your retirement account. If you have excellent credit, that can make Fidelity more attractive, otherwise I'd just stick with Vanguard.

I have this card and while the rewards rule, the support really blows. Not that you need to call your CC company much but just an FYI that fidelity outsources the card to FIA card services, which, well: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/credit_cards/fia.html

Anyways just a heads up!

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

SlightlyMadman
Jan 14, 2005

I've been using Personal Capital to track my retirement investments, and while its suggestions seem pretty much in line with what I'm doing, I'm always way under in Alternatives (they say I should be around 8%). I checked my Fidelity and Vanguard fund choices and don't see any alternatives; for most investors that would be gold and other metals, right? Should I be worried that I own almost no alternatives, or is this just a symptom Personal Capital being for rich people (for whom 8% of their portfolio is probably in a Picasso on the wall) in ways that don't apply to me?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply