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Ojetor posted:Your client being guilty kinda ruins the entire "always believe in your client" mantra that Phoenix stands by. I haven't played Matt Engarde's case in a long time but I seem to remember all that stuff is just conveniently ignored for that case. We had this exact conversation in 2-4 though. The whole point is that Phoenix is challenged on how he bases his defense off of his faith in his client. 2-4 spoilers, I suppose posted:Edgeworth: It doesn't matter who, every person deserves a proper defense and a fair trial. Isn't that the basis of our judicial system?
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Nov 3, 2013 06:57
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Suspicious Cook posted:I can only imagine that conversation. "Wright-dono, how would you feel about representing the woman who threatened your daughter's life?" You know he'd do it.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:06
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Strange Quark posted:We had this exact conversation in 2-4 though. The whole point is that Phoenix is challenged on how he bases his defense off of his faith in his client. I remember that conversation, but in the end the trial is anything but fair considering Engarde confesses under duress, with a trained assassin threatening to kill him.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:08
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Ojetor posted:I remember that conversation, but in the end the trial is anything but fair considering Engarde confesses under duress, with a trained assassin threatening to kill him. Yeah, I agree about the trial; having Phoenix under coercion the whole time certainly didn't help either. Obviously, we need another case with a not completely innocent defendant to do it right. DLC Aura case Capcom, do it do it do it.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:20
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Strange Quark posted:DLC Aura case Capcom, do it do it do it. Hmm. Bring back the jury system from the end of AJ again, and then the case is about making an argument for jury nullification? I'm pretty sure that wouldn't make any sense within the confines of AA's game system, though.
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Nov 3, 2013 07:25
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Quest For Glory II posted:I think it would be an interesting spin on the series if a couple of cases had you recognize that your client was guilty and then negotiate a plea deal. And then bluffing your way into getting a felony reduced to, like, jaywalking. Considering what loops and drama Phoenix has to go through to defend an innocent client, I don't think anyone in Japanifornia would be able to pull that off
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Nov 3, 2013 08:59
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Well, Franny offers a chance to plead Self Defence in 2-2, so it would be definitely possible. Regarding Phoenix defending Aura, well, I could see how now, he would, just for the sake of not letting her get screwed too blady by a prosecutor. It would kind of goes against the ending of 2-4, and well, the tone of the whole game if he was to say "screw you, you're on your own", to someone. Artix posted:the cases tended to drag a little with bits of testimony that didn't really add to the mystery (Hugh's whole bullshit about a body double and such immediately comes to mind), This peculiar testimony do leads to a gem, though: Blackquill going "gently caress it, this is stupid, Athena, clean your mess, I'm grabbing a beer with Fulbright.". Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 11:56
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Ojetor posted:I remember that conversation, but in the end the trial is anything but fair considering Engarde confesses under duress, with a trained assassin threatening to kill him. - Blackmailing a confession out of Redd White - Forcing Engarde to confess under threat of murder - Convicting Kristoph under false evidence - Changing the entire legal system just to let him convict Kristoph again It could be an interesting source of conflict with Athena in future games.
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Nov 3, 2013 14:45
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Don't forget tricking Tigre into confessing using phony evidence. I already thought Apollo in AA4 presented a pretty good contrast. Especially how Apollo had no problem outing his clients as criminals, but Phoenix managed to get Mask*DeMasque off the hook and generally tried covering for his defendants.
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Nov 3, 2013 15:24
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Final time of 16:45. Three things I'm very mildly annoyed about. Firstly, Klavier does not air guitar even once. Second, they did not use this sprite for Trucy at any point, which was my favorite. And thirdly, you never do get to see the spy's actual face. On the whole, a spectacularly fun game. Apollo really comes into his own, especially in the last case. Also Simon going "what? No I don't work here" during the credits got a good laugh out of me.
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Nov 3, 2013 16:50
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The phantom is like a monster in a horror movie. He's a lot scarier when you don't know what he looks like, because if they reveal it, it's just going to be a let-down.
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Nov 3, 2013 17:18
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:The phantom is like a monster in a horror movie. He's a lot scarier when you don't know what he looks like, because if they reveal it, it's just going to be a let-down. It also takes the theme of the phantom having no true identity to a very literal level when, even after losing his last mask, the phantom's face cannot be seen.
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Nov 3, 2013 18:28
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Ahahah holy poo poo. Case 5 spoilers: Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective
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Nov 3, 2013 18:32
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Terper posted:Ahahah holy poo poo. Case 5 spoilers: Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective Well, that explains how the phantom survived the sniper shot. Maybe Phoenix brought his hobo hat to court and Missile swapped it with the bullet. 
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Nov 3, 2013 20:31
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Terper posted:Ahahah holy poo poo. Case 5 spoilers: Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective Well great, now I can't stop imagining an AA game with Cabanela as the detective. I mean, poo poo, he even dresses kind of like Fulbright.
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Nov 3, 2013 20:46
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Wonderslug posted:Well great, now I can't stop imagining an AA game with Cabanela as the detective. I mean, poo poo, he even dresses kind of like Fulbright. What about a Ghost Trick game with the real Fulbright as the protagonist? He did die at a space center, after all. Maybe they had some radioactive meteorites lying around.
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Nov 3, 2013 20:49
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I spent most of case 5 thinking that the (missing object) moon rock was going to be related to the case 2 gold. I'm overthinking ace attorney.
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Nov 3, 2013 20:59
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Speaking of case 2 I have to wonder what Grandpa Filch did with that big chunk of gold. He clearly didn't use it to lay down a better future for his descendants.
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Nov 3, 2013 21:09
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Well, Filch said it was a "get rich quick" kind of treasure, so it may very well be that his grandfather spent/lost it all almost as soon as he got it.
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Nov 3, 2013 21:21
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Just finished the whole game. Overall, I dug it and enjoyed getting back into the series. For Case 5, I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the ending yet, even if I liked playing out the case itself. I was blindsided when it seemed that Fulbright was the culprit, because he seemed like such a stand-up guy! That said, I still enjoyed the twist, and breaking through his lack of emotions. However, the twist beyond that, where it wasn't Fulbright at all, but some nebulous faceless spy, I'm less certain about. One thing I like about these games is poking the holes in the testimony of some smug jerk we've gotten to know through the game. To have it be someone we never really met in the game and ultimately never find out who it is (and the character even being vaguely sympathetic with his having lost his true self and all) seems a bit off to me. I guess I have to look at it in terms of the spy being more the catalyst for the development of the protagonists, and I do like how they grew throughout the game. That said, I don't regret the purchase at all, and looking forward to more adventures.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:21
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This game's main cast is getting a bit cluttered. I mean, we have Phoenix, Apollo, Edgey, Athena, Maya, Pearls, Franziska, Klavier, Gumshoe, Ema?, Trucy and Blackquill and it just seems like a lot. Like, Trucy doesn't do anything at all all game, she could have not really been in it. Same with Klavier and Edgeworth, Pearls too. Gumeshoe wasn't in this game either and Ema stepped down from duties in this game.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:27
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Austrian mook posted:This game's main cast is getting a bit cluttered. I mean, we have Phoenix, Apollo, Edgey, Athena, Maya, Pearls, Franziska, Klavier, Gumshoe, Ema?, Trucy and Blackquill and it just seems like a lot. Like, Trucy doesn't do anything at all all game, she could have not really been in it. Same with Klavier and Edgeworth, Pearls too. Gumeshoe wasn't in this game either and Ema stepped down from duties in this game. While this it is true their appearances aren't strictly necessary, if you remember back to AA4's reception, one of the big complaints was that there were very few returning characters. Hell, people complained about Maya not appearing in this game even though she kinda "appears" via her letter. I like the cameos, they give a little bit more depth to the world. AA already suffers a bit from it's episodic format in that the vast majority of characters appear for one case at most and are never heard of again. Having a little continuity between cases and between games is a good thing, IMO.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:37
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Yeah, it seems like a lot, but compared to the huge cast over all the games it isn't, really. Not to me anyway?
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Nov 3, 2013 22:38
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Ojetor posted:While this it is true their appearances aren't strictly necessary, if you remember back to AA4's reception, one of the big complaints was that there were very few returning characters. Hell, people complained about Maya not appearing in this game even though she kinda "appears" via her letter. I suppose, I did really like how you had Juniper sort of appearing throughout all the cases, that was cool. I also love when you see old characters again, like Adrian, you really feel like stuff is happening offscreen and the world is real or something. I just meant that if we want everyone around, it's unlikely we'll have room for anyone new, although it looks like they're sticking with the Phoenix-Apollo-Athena thing for PW6, if it gets made.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:41
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Phoenix Wright has always had lots of recurring characters. It's not a new thing.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:41
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The only game that really had significantly more returning characters was AAI, cameo central. Who cares if they're superfluous, it's Capcom's way of throwing a bone to old fans.
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Nov 3, 2013 22:42
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Strange Quark posted:The only game that really had significantly more returning characters was AAI, cameo central. Who cares if they're superfluous, it's Capcom's way of throwing a bone to old fans. oh man, if you think the first investigations had cameos, hoo boy!
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Nov 3, 2013 22:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. I think Wright does kindof believe that "the ends justify the means", it's just that the end he is aiming for is the conviction of the true culprit rather than a victory for his client. The examples I would give for this are: None of those are remotely as they really happen, though. Getting White to confess was a side effect of proving White did have some dirt over someone. Phoenix was not really planning anything ahead here, considering the state he was in. Same for Engarde. Either you plead guilty, because y'know, he IS, or you don't, and Phoenix just rub in Engarde's face that De Killer is about to hunt him down. He doesn't present false evidence though. He uses the same trick as he did against Don Tigre: Lead him to admit waht he shouldn't know, withy a side order of what Franziska pulled on him in 2-2 with that picture of Maya as Mia. Underhanded, but still legal. And overhauling the system to prevent crafty killers to game the system strike me as a fairly sensible goal. On the other hand, the way Means profess that the ends justify the means is pretty much "use anything, even if illegal, as soon as you can". Day and night.
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Nov 3, 2013 23:04
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Nick has always been prone to... well, Wild Accusations and Unabashed Bluffing, it's right their in the thread name! The initial trial system is practically engineered to see prosecutors win cases, so in a sense being completely honest isn't really feasible, even if it's simply intellectual dishonesty, ie arguing something you don't really believe to create room for doubt. The difference is that Professor Means' ends are only success--the truth doesn't matter. None of the other games are terribly fresh in my mind right now, but in case 3 itself, Athena both exposes Robin's secret to demonstrate there was another woman who could have been on campus at the time, and then argues that the recording is not Juniper shouting "You're a goner!" but Courte shouting "Hugh O'Conner!"--which both turn out to be untrue. It actually is Juniper.
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Nov 3, 2013 23:23
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The playing card he has Apollo present in 4-1 is forged, isn't it? Using false evidence to convict a guilty man is pretty much the definition of ends-justifying-means.
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Nov 4, 2013 00:20
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Oh man, why is everyone in Case 4 so incredibly adorable 
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Nov 4, 2013 00:22
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Holy poo poo! No! No no no no no! I refuse. There's NO way! Woah! Holy poo poo! (Major case 5, no gently caress it, major game spoilers) BOBBY loving FULLBRIGHT IS THE PHANTOM!? HE SABOTAGED THE HAT1 LAUNCH, KILLED ATHENA'S MOTHER, SENT BLACKQUILL TO PRISON, AND KILLED CLAY TERAN!? Well, that tops it. I'm done. There can never be another twist as big as that. No way. Nuh-uh.
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Nov 4, 2013 00:56
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Snix posted:Holy poo poo! No! No no no no no! I refuse. There's NO way! Woah! Holy poo poo! (Major case 5, no gently caress it, major game spoilers) BOBBY loving FULLBRIGHT IS THE PHANTOM!? HE SABOTAGED THE HAT1 LAUNCH, KILLED ATHENA'S MOTHER, SENT BLACKQUILL TO PRISON, AND KILLED CLAY TERAN!? Well, that tops it. I'm done. There can never be another twist as big as that. No way. Nuh-uh. I'd been waiting for you to finish this game after a few of your earlier posts  .
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Nov 4, 2013 01:33
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The twist at the end caught me SUPER by surprise because while browsing this thread, my cursor accidentally passed over some spoilered text and I caught one word. Kristoph. I was on the edge of my seat for the rest of the game waiting for that rear end in a top hat to show up. I believe it really enhanced my shock in the end
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Nov 4, 2013 01:38
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The only thing that I managed to spoil for myself was the fact that a piece of evidence was sent into space. I for sure thought that the twist in Case 4 was going to be that, while everyone was underground, one of the rockets had launched, preventing something from being discovered. Kind of disappointed to find out it was instead a done deal with the predecessor case - I think it would've been a great twist if I hadn't been anticipating it.
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Nov 4, 2013 02:57
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Pick posted:I'd been waiting for you to finish this game after a few of your earlier posts And on a side-note, I think my favorite theme was Athena's objection theme. There was just something so... theme-y about it. It reminds me of something, but I couldn't tell you what. Snix fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 03:51
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So something popped into my mind while playing this, what happened to the Jurist System? Wasn't that supposed to revolutionize how trials played out in the PW world?
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Nov 4, 2013 04:17
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Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:So something popped into my mind while playing this, what happened to the Jurist System? Wasn't that supposed to revolutionize how trials played out in the PW world? It's been gone over in the thread. The reason the Jurist System was a part of Apollo Justice was that at the time, Japan started to do jury trials again after 50 years, and people were hoping it would improve the court system. It did not. And Japan just kinda wants to forget about it.
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Nov 4, 2013 04:19
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Snix posted:Holy poo poo! No! No no no no no! I refuse. There's NO way! Woah! Holy poo poo! (Major case 5, no gently caress it, major game spoilers) BOBBY loving FULLBRIGHT IS THE PHANTOM!? HE SABOTAGED THE HAT1 LAUNCH, KILLED ATHENA'S MOTHER, SENT BLACKQUILL TO PRISON, AND KILLED CLAY TERAN!? Well, that tops it. I'm done. There can never be another twist as big as that. No way. Nuh-uh. Lots of people dislike Justice For All, and with-- in retrospect-- good reason, but it was actually my first Phoenix Wright so it has something of a special place in my heart, because even if it's not the best Ace Attorney it still showed me what makes these games compelling. I still remember playing through those cases for the first time and having the "Eureka!" moment where everything came together and the case finally clicked, and even if the story is ultimately linear and railroads you to an inevitable conclusion just as much as any detective novel having to present evidence and piece things together along the way makes that moment where you solve the mystery absolutely sublime in a way few other things are. And then when Matt Engarde flips his hair up in 2-4 and pulls everything into a complete 180 it's just such a great moment and masterful twist that it cemented the entire case as my favorite from any of the games. And that's why this game's finale is one of my favorites in the series, because as much as the final confrontation isn't what it could have been that moment where you first realize who the true culprit is throws you for a loop in an incredible way that creates the exact same kind of feeling you get in 2-4. I know I'm probably just revealing a bias towards Shymalayan-style twists here, and ultimately there are only so many ways to do "the culprit is somebody you never would have even considered a suspect!" without making it feel like you're ticking off a check box, but I've got a real fondness for having my assumptions messed with like that.
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Nov 4, 2013 04:21
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Waffleman_ posted:It's been gone over in the thread. The reason the Jurist System was a part of Apollo Justice was that at the time, Japan started to do jury trials again after 50 years, and people were hoping it would improve the court system. Oh, I see. Well, is there an in-game explanation for why it's no longer used?
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Nov 4, 2013 04:23
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