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Baudolino posted:Defeating fascism in europe is going to be tricky. You can`t just go around being violent toward anyone who seems suspicious. That will lose you the support of the people. But you can`t just abandon the streets wich is to say the field of battle to them either. So some degree of force even if that means deadly force may be necessary. Ah but the minute you have a political murder on your hands you will be considered to be terrorists and then you are really hosed. Honestly the best solution seems to be false flag attack. Dress up in black gear, pretend to be fascits for a few months and then commit a horrible crime in the name of fascism so as to blacken it`s name. That way the state and the law will have to attack them. It needs to be something so horrific that it cannot be ignored, and it needs to be directed at white people. Give europe a thousand Brevik`s in every country and fascism will lose popular support. Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. Fascism can be defeated without pre-emptive violence. Woody Guthrie's guitar had "This Machine Kills Fascists" written on it, and it wasn't because he beaned them over the head with it.
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Nov 3, 2013 01:50
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Jedit posted:Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. Their deaths will be regrettable, of course. But it'll be worth the losses to bring us into a glorious, fash-free future. And I actually feel uncomfortable enough writing that that I'm going to clarify that it's definitely ironic, satirical, whatever. As was Baudolino's post, I'm virtually certain. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 01:55
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Strudel Man posted:Now the problem is, we know that low-level police are often sympathetic to the golden dawn, which is why we can't trust them to do things such as just enforcing regular laws against them. If this cleansing process is to be successful, we're going to have to create a separate organization of people whose loyalty and obedience to the state is thoroughly vetted and absolute, to whom we can trust the task of rooting out and exterminating subversive elements. By the way if you think any of this is iffy you are in fact the real fascist (or a collaborator).
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Nov 3, 2013 02:02
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Jedit posted:Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. Maybe the world would be a better place if this were true (though that is debatable), but to honestly believe it in the face of actually-existing reality is delusional.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:02
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The best way to defeat fascist is to stop what creates it in the first place and we all know what that is (and which econ departments are responsible).
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Nov 3, 2013 02:05
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Gen. Ripper posted:By the way if you think any of this is iffy you are in fact the real fascist (or a collaborator). Ardennes posted:The best way to defeat fascist is to stop what creates it in the first place and we all know what that is (and which econ departments are responsible). Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 02:05
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History is driven by dreams and inspirations. And economic activity. I have to wonder how much (original) Star Trek did to fight racism and build the future we live in. I fight for a better tomorrow every day. I work in drug treatment and homeless shelters. I make sure people are safe, not out there to be abused. I make sure they clean up, get jobs, and make a better future for themselves. And as a hobby, I'm trying to teach the next generation about how to dream about being not only powerful, but good.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:07
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The great irony of what you say, is that liberalism would have been impossible without the political violence of the French Revolution. Open a history book and acknowledge that art and culture is contingent on the dominant hegemonic ideology, or stick with your 'drum circles' when jackbooted thugs are fighting in the streets and achieve nothing.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:11
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I'm fully in favor of beating the poo poo out of fascists, disrupting their marches, and trashing their headquarters; I just think that straight up hunting them down with the intent to murder them in cold blood is pretty hosed up and would be compromising our ideals, thanks.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:16
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Definitely. Underneath it all, violence is what drives the beating heart of society. Politics, like life in general, is about struggle and conflict. Pacifism like these liberals espouse is nothing but surrender to the enemies lurking at the door. Only by truly embracing violence, by understanding that politics is a game of endless war, can we truly defeat the ever-present spectre of fascism.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:16
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Art and culture are irrelevant and decadent, useless expressions of modernity and liberalism. All history is violent struggle, and only through victory in #bashthefash by violent action will we emerge, bloody and energized, a strong and renewed people.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:21
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rudatron posted:The great irony of what you say, is that liberalism would have been impossible without the political violence of the French Revolution. Open a history book and acknowledge that art and culture is contingent on the dominant hegemonic ideology, or stick with your 'drum circles' when jackbooted thugs are fighting in the streets and achieve nothing. So you're saying the lesson in liberalism that the French revolution gave us is that "violence in the name of our good ideology is a-ok" and you also believe that we've strayed from that virtuous path that it shined upon us in these periods of peace when we did not actively murder anti-democratic individuals in our societies?
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Nov 3, 2013 02:23
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Strudel Man posted:Definitely. Underneath it all, violence is what drives the beating heart of society. Politics, like life in general, is about struggle and conflict. Pacifism like these liberals espouse is nothing but surrender to the enemies lurking at the door. Only by truly embracing violence, by understanding that politics is a game of endless war, can we truly defeat the ever-present spectre of fascism. rudatron fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 02:24
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Liberal politicians collaborate in building societies whose conditions lead to fascist organizations while liberals scream that anybody who resists fascists is no better than a fascist themselves. Funny, except not.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:26
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Pretty sure that you can effectively resist fascists without sanctioning outright assassinations tho you know, just saying
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Nov 3, 2013 02:33
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Pope Guilty posted:Liberal politicians collaborate in building societies whose conditions lead to fascist organizations while liberals scream that anybody who resists fascists is no better than a fascist themselves. Funny, except not. Define "liberal" for me, please.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:33
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V. Illych L. posted:Pretty sure that you can effectively resist fascists without sanctioning outright assassinations tho Also limiting resisting fascism to just cracking skulls in the street kind of marginalizes the agency of actors who aren't, you know, young men with nothing to lose.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:43
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rudatron posted:You've been doing this disingenuous game for a bunch of posts, and exactly 0 of them have been in any way insightful, funny or useful to anyone. Fascism, Liberalism and Socialism are distinct political ideologies with a different social perspectives and ideals, conflating them is nothing but pure propaganda. You aren't fooling anyone.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:48
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Berke Negri posted:Also limiting resisting fascism to just cracking skulls in the street kind of marginalizes the agency of actors who aren't, you know, young men with nothing to lose. Hey, I take offense to that. Despite my gender, illnesses, and slight frame, I am perfectly capable of utilizing a firebomb. 
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Nov 3, 2013 02:49
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eightpole posted:macho leftist goons are really annoying because like 1% of y'all would ever raise a fist in any situation and pretending anything else is really just you trying to be an internet tough guy Jesus Christ this thread is becoming loving embarassing on almost Freep levels. You idiots go ahead and form the first international brigade to fight in Greece against fascism against the actual action of the populace. The solution in Greece is for a stronger and more organized left that can bring back to their flock the millions of disenfranchised people who are desperate and are only seeing GD as their choice. They're not doing it because they think fascism is awesome, they're doing it because they're being treated like animals. How the gently caress can a bumfuck country like Portugal maintain such an organized leftist force like PCP while the rest of Eurocommunism is falling apart without leaving a trace is jarring. You won't create organized leftist parties by simply beating up fascists, and you certainly aren't going to create mature, politically developed leftist parties if their origin is based on violence. How is SIRIZA acting nowadays? People are treating them like they sold themselves to the devil because they lost the elections but someone, probably YF-23, could speak up about what seems to be the best organized resistance against the fash. Your national communist party seems like a joke so i'll refrain from speaking about them.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:54
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Small Frozen Thing posted:Hey, I take offense to that. But what of those with no arms? My violent revolution must be OSHA and EEO compliant, or no thanks.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:00
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Strudel Man posted:I'm sorry that you weren't amused by my attempts to fit the points you're making into standard fascist rhetoric. You have to realize, though, that it wasn't really intended for your benefit. Once someone is openly advocating the murder of their political enemies, I basically give up on engagement with them directly in favor of the general audience and my own sense of humor. rudatron fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Nov 3, 2013 |
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Nov 3, 2013 03:01
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Panas posted:But that would have deprived us of Mitterrand. A former fascist who then became the socialist president of France. A man complicit in the Rwandan genocide. Good pick, dude.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:02
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SplitSoul posted:A man complicit in the Rwandan genocide. Good pick, dude. Wow I did not know that 
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Nov 3, 2013 03:12
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swampland posted:Proposed thread soundtrack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX5chjCjDkg
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Nov 3, 2013 03:13
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Mans posted:Jesus Christ this thread is becoming loving embarassing on almost Freep levels. You idiots go ahead and form the first international brigade to fight in Greece against fascism against the actual action of the populace. Yeah? Well nobody's buying it. Bash the fash.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:30
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SplitSoul posted:A man complicit in the Rwandan genocide. Good pick, dude. I think most western leaders were complicit with that genocide. I merely used him as an example that moving from one extreme to the other is not so difficult nor exactly unheard of. Mussolini started out as a socialist if I remember correctly. And before anyone says Mitterrand was not a real socialist, he was pretty much as close as it gets for elected leaders in the West trying to function within the democratic system.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:37
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Jedit posted:Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. If so Mr Gurthie was a bit naive. You need to create a situation where overwhelhming force can be brougth against the fascits. If not they will dominate in the streets and in the polls. And then no amount of skull cracking by the left can save the situation.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:46
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Fascists aren't actual superhumans, for what it is worth. There is no historical or deterministic or sociological inevitability that fascists will always win elections and the only way to stop them is to dress up like fascists and commit acts of terrorism as fascists.
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Nov 3, 2013 03:54
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I`m just saying you need to make people in the lower classes hate fascist. That means you have to create a narrative wich is stronger then " Lazy Africans taking our jobs" that is a tall fuckimng order. I`m saying leave no sin uncomitted beacause the fascists will have no problems with that if they belive it wil result in dominon over the UK.
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Nov 3, 2013 04:15
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Baudolino posted:I`m just saying you need to make people in the lower classes hate fascist. That means you have to create a narrative wich is stronger then " Lazy Africans taking our jobs" that is a tall fuckimng order. I`m saying leave no sin uncomitted beacause the fascists will have no problems with that if they belive it wil result in dominon over the UK.
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Nov 3, 2013 04:19
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Preach that brother. But do not expect it to convince everyone. Why not have a little little lie in the backhand if that helps the greater cause? poo poo, do you expect the enemy to be honest? They will lie, they will do false flag attacks and in general do every possible thing to twarth you. Play fair and you will lose. Ofaloaf posted:"Hey, fascists are huge pricks, brought their countries into a huge world war, committed horrible acts, and then got hosed several ways to Sunday. You want to support those losers? Also, the EDL is loving pathetic and that's plain to see if you ever actually manage to spot a member in the wild."
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Nov 3, 2013 04:30
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rudatron posted:The great irony of what you say, is that liberalism would have been impossible without the political violence of the French Revolution. Open a history book and acknowledge that art and culture is contingent on the dominant hegemonic ideology, or stick with your 'drum circles' when jackbooted thugs are fighting in the streets and achieve nothing. Also, America has a liberal system which affords broad freedom for political expression, a strong modern taboo against political violence and a political culture in which fascists are ludicrously small.
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Nov 3, 2013 05:30
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Omi-Polari posted:It was possible in America without the Terror. Maybe French liberalism contains flaws which were not replicated in other liberal systems. The emergence of actual liberalism in America, post-Revolution, was definitely due to violent struggles - the Civil War, the Civil Rights movement, the various labour movements, etc.
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Nov 3, 2013 05:33
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new thread title posted:A return of Fascism in Europe? Let One Thousand Breiviks Bloom
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Nov 3, 2013 05:36
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Mans posted:How is SIRIZA acting nowadays? People are treating them like they sold themselves to the devil because they lost the elections but someone, probably YF-23, could speak up about what seems to be the best organized resistance against the fash. Your national communist party seems like a joke so i'll refrain from speaking about them. The best weapon so far against the Golden Dawn has been to let them make fools of themselves and show what horrible people they are. It's hard to say what sort of organised resistance could be set up against them; the police cannot be counted on, and when it has to do something it'll go light on them. I do not belong to any left-wing groups and I'm far from the capital so I don't really see any protests, so I don't know how protests and so on get organised, but if anyone wants to truly defeat Golden Dawn the best way to go about it is to reveal them for the scum they are and make that dominate the narrative so much that the mainstream media cannot but follow suit. This happened after Physsas' murder, so what's important is that that narrative is maintained.
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Nov 3, 2013 10:58
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YF-23 posted:The best weapon so far against the Golden Dawn has been to let them make fools of themselves and show what horrible people they are. It's hard to say what sort of organised resistance could be set up against them; the police cannot be counted on, and when it has to do something it'll go light on them. I do not belong to any left-wing groups and I'm far from the capital so I don't really see any protests, so I don't know how protests and so on get organised, but if anyone wants to truly defeat Golden Dawn the best way to go about it is to reveal them for the scum they are and make that dominate the narrative so much that the mainstream media cannot but follow suit. This happened after Physsas' murder, so what's important is that that narrative is maintained. I dunno, I'd say that the best way to truly defeat the GD is to try to help Greece as much as possible in rebuilding its economy, assembling a functional government, and bringing back a little hope for the public. Direct antifascist action is containment, designed to keep the situation stable-ish until the underlying problems have been solved. Treating people to hate fascists is not the be-all and end-all solution, it just results in the fascists realising they've got an image problem and dressing their horrible opinions up in a different way. Until people are no longer desperate and hopeless enough that fascism and related ideologies seem like an appealing solution, the Golden Dawn will never die even if the specific organisation of that name crumbles.
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Nov 3, 2013 11:41
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Real quick general question, but does anyone think torture is a justified tactic against fascists? Is it morally permissible to use waterboarding against them?
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Nov 3, 2013 11:53
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Jedit posted:Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. This video by Zizek seems relevant here: http://youtu.be/XM9erS90gTE
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Nov 3, 2013 11:59
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Darth Walrus posted:I dunno, I'd say that the best way to truly defeat the GD is to try to help Greece as much as possible in rebuilding its economy, assembling a functional government, and bringing back a little hope for the public. Direct antifascist action is containment, designed to keep the situation stable-ish until the underlying problems have been solved. Treating people to hate fascists is not the be-all and end-all solution, it just results in the fascists realising they've got an image problem and dressing their horrible opinions up in a different way. Until people are no longer desperate and hopeless enough that fascism and related ideologies seem like an appealing solution, the Golden Dawn will never die even if the specific organisation of that name crumbles. I agree with this in general, but that's contingent on Germany giving a gently caress about Greece which, well If anyone should be tried it should be the leaders and technocrats of the Troika. Never has dereliction of duty and service been writ larger than what is going on in Europe currently.
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Nov 3, 2013 12:06
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