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Dr Pepper posted:It's pretty funny how easy it is to make Kira and Lacus the villains. SEED Destiny ends with Lacus taking over all of the colonies for herself and granting Cagalli power over Earth after their forces systematically destroy and dismantle the capability of every other armed military to resist them while simultaneously not giving up any of their own striking power. They pretty much stage an outright conquer-the-world coup while spouting off about how they only want peace. They even force defeated soldiers to accept blame for their loss and apologize to the new regime(Shinn). Putting this in perspective, the actually psychotic Gundam Wing Operation Meteor pilots were more ideologically consistent and honest about their true intentions than the Lacus faction because once they achieved their stated goal(overthrow of corrupt government/introduction of world peace) they fired their Gundams into the sun and disarmed themselves. Gundam Wing.
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Nov 4, 2013 20:37
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Dr Pepper posted:It's pretty funny how easy it is to make Kira and Lacus the villains. It's more that, due to lovely characterization of the opposing sides, Rau was right. Humanity in the Common Era is straight up evil, and no amount of idealism can ever change that. Lacus essentially had to force the world into submission, and Kira admits to Durandal that he has no solution to the lovely status quo. You could very easily make the case that the CE timeline is by far the shittiest of them all. And not just because living in it seems to reduce your IQ by 200.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:09
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Man, it's a bad thing because I really want to go back and rewatch now to see if I can pick up on this, because while the cause may be terrible writing that just glosses over this poo poo, the unfortunate implications that have been raised here are just seriously messed up.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:36
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I've never been able to get through more than like 5 episodes of SEED, but before I torture myself with that, I think I'm gonna finish Turn-A first. Then Victory. And 00. And X. And then maybe Ideon for the ultimate in depressed Tomino. And then maybe SEED. ...But probably not. Even though it's readily and easily available on youtube in HD.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:48
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I'll say that SEED is substantially easier to get through than Destiny, and if you can find the DVD versions in one way or another, they are recut to make a bit more sense and flow coherently.
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Nov 4, 2013 21:59
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For me, the main flaw with SEED is that it is criminally boring. Like, on paper the stuff that's happening on screen should be interesting, but when I actually watch it I am just bored bored bored. Everything is ridiculously slow and plodding, the character designs make emoting almost impossible, the battle choreography is almost universally terrible, and the stock animation is incredibly blatant. Like I can handle poorly written trash (I watched all of Infinite Stratos for crying out loud), but SEED manages to go beyond that.
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Nov 4, 2013 22:01
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Dr Pepper posted:This is hilarious, I'm betting even the writers forgot, because the best way to describe why SEED's plot is so strange is "they wrote each episode without thinking about how it looks as a whole" Yeah, I think I remember it being one of the prime motivations of the smug earth hate-monger dudes. Like, earth lost massive amounts of people and crops when their power basically got knocked out to the stone age after the N-jammers went in. I still remember the stupid montage of a guy bleeding against a wall that they showed a million times for the valentines day massacre, but they mentioned the earth situation like twice. Maybe because it wasn't outright violent? It's too bad, because it would have been far more interesting to spend some time trying to tackle the consequences of war on the populace as a whole, instead of focusing on a bunch of teenage drama-babies. e: then again, it's gundam. I don't really have those expectations anymore. In Zeta gundam when they went to the gassed colony, that was pretty creepy to me when I first saw it. I don't really think SEED cared for much outside of the blunt and visceral imagery and just put it on repeat. Meow Tse-tung fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Nov 4, 2013 |
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Nov 4, 2013 22:49
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Kanos posted:I swear blind up and down that F91 could have been pretty good if it wasn't a full length TV show cut down into an OVA cut down into a movie. It isn't. It's a full length tv show cut down to it's first quarter, shoved in to an OVA, then cut down in to a movie. Which, admittedly, isn't much better. Still, 12ish episodes cut down to 90 minutes or so is a lot better than 50ish episodes. I'm with Bimmi, I don't really see what was so great about the movie, story or characters to be so sure that F91 would have been this great masterpiece some people herald it as possibly being. I think it's people just building off the unknown to make it great in their own mind while largely ignoring the actual content along with love of Crossbone coloring expectations a bit. Which is just silly, because F91 was very different in tone and design from Crossbone and obviously not meant to be what was originally envisaged at all. As to SEED/Destiny? Personally I just found it kind of funny that the coordinators are supposed to be these super intelligent supermen and they never come across as remotely different from any given natural. Not even in piloting ability, because Mwu, Rau, Cagalli etc. manage to be perfectly fine pilots. tsob fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 00:16
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I realized that destiny was going the wrong way when early on when I cheered for Shinn loving up the earth alliance and orb fleet, when the show tries to convince you to feel sorry orb. Also the invasion of orb was supposed to be bad. Even though they were hiding the guy who killed hundreds of thousands of people and ZAFT, if I recall, told the government to hand him over or they were going to invade. What I'm really saying is gently caress orb.
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Nov 5, 2013 00:33
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^^^ B-b-b-but they were neutral!tsob posted:As to SEED/Destiny? Personally I just found it kind of funny that the coordinators are supposed to be these super intelligent supermen and they never come across as remotely different from any given natural. Not even in piloting ability, because Mwu, Rau, Cagalli etc. manage to be perfectly fine pilots. Well, coordinators are somehow more resistant to super high temperatures like unshielded atmospheric re-entry, have superman muscles, can go into super mode, and can rewrite entire operating systems in like 20 seconds in the middle of a battle, but then Kira was like super coordinator, so maybe not all of them can. That being said, trained coordinators could pilot mobile suits while naturals could barely get them moving until our hero Space Jesus wrote a system that could let their inferior brains comprehend their operation and inferior bodies move them. Also I thought Mwu and Rau were at least not ordinary naturals in some respect, beyond the usual Gundam psychic thing. Maybe at one point "Naturals and coordinators aren't so different" might have been a theme, but Kira kind of shoots that in the foot. If only it were like Wing, where everyone is normal except for the gundam pilots who were just on shitloads of drugs or something.
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Nov 5, 2013 00:35
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Apparently Rau and Mu are newtypes so basically the only way to stand up to a genetic superman is to be a genetic superman by lottery
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Nov 5, 2013 00:48
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Kanos posted:They even force defeated soldiers to accept blame for their loss and apologize to the new regime(Shinn). They could have just not had Shinn appear again, since they clearly didn't give a poo poo about him or his character arc anymore, but no, he saw the light.
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Nov 5, 2013 00:51
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chumbler posted:^^^ B-b-b-but they were neutral! Cagalli went in to SEED mode if I recall, so that at least is nothing to do with coordination at all. And Kira was a programmer, not just a coordinator, so that's why he was able to rewrite the OS like that. They can say there's specific differences between coordinators and humans, but the reality portrayed by the show is that they're functionally identical. There was also supposed to be some kind of issue preventing coordinators from having children between each other past the third generation, making them even less viable as the future of man - at least until that issue is solved. It barely saw any mention in the show though, same as the anti-nuclear devices killing billions of naturals.
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Nov 5, 2013 01:01
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Monaghan posted:I realized that destiny was going the wrong way when early on when I cheered for Shinn loving up the earth alliance and orb fleet, when the show tries to convince you to feel sorry orb. One of the most surreal moments of Destiny comes from the Orb arc. Cagalli, one of the leading politicians of her country, has recently fled her nation on the eve of war to avoid an arranged marriage and escaped into the hands of a bunch of international criminals. She doesn't communicate with anyone or try to establish a government in exile or anything. Her first reappearance is armed in a mobile suit backed up by a battleship flying the colors of said international criminals in the middle of an open battle, and the first thing she does is to open a comm signal and demand all of Orb's forces stand down and stop fighting without any concrete evidence why besides "Orb shouldn't fight wars". When they completely unsurprisingly fail to listen to her orders, her response is to yell really loudly and then burst into tears like a child having a tantrum as though she cannot believe it. And then Kira goes apeshit berserk, almost murders his best friend, and proceeds to go on a rampage disarming soldiers in an open battle literally "Because Cagalli is crying". Jesus christ. Justin_Brett posted:They could have just not had Shinn appear again, since they clearly didn't give a poo poo about him or his character arc anymore, but no, he saw the light. After the Angel Down arc the show took a really bizarre fetishistic approach to deconstructing and humiliating Shinn on every level. He never really gets another moment to shine(besides the initial attack on Heaven's Base where they're showing off the Destiny to sell model kits) and spends the rest of the series getting dumped on and clowned by people he's beaten or fought to a standstill before. The last scene we get of Shinn before the epilogue is him crying in the dust in the wreckage of his shattered mobile suit as he watches his dreams die and his life fall apart in front of his eyes at the very hands of the person who ruined his life to begin with. Then in the epilogue he "reconciles" with the new regime. As in, Kira doesn't apologize or offer sympathies for being directly responsible for the death of Shinn's family or Stellar and they don't come to a mutual agreement and reconciliation, it's more Shinn being forced to apologize. Whoa, whenever I write about Destiny I advance the cause of "Kira and Lacus are actually the villains".
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Nov 5, 2013 02:20
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I kind of wish Tomino was more willing to do panels at conventions just so it could be publicly documented what his reaction to SEED in all its terrible glory was. e: Like seriously ever since this conversation started I have this image in my head of someone asking him "what is your opinion of gundam SEED" and all he does is the Gran Torino shudder before asking what the next question is.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:28
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Kanos posted:One of the most surreal moments of Destiny comes from the Orb arc. Cagalli, one of the leading politicians of her country, has recently fled her nation on the eve of war to avoid an arranged marriage and escaped into the hands of a bunch of international criminals. She doesn't communicate with anyone or try to establish a government in exile or anything. Her first reappearance is armed in a mobile suit backed up by a battleship flying the colors of said international criminals in the middle of an open battle, and the first thing she does is to open a comm signal and demand all of Orb's forces stand down and stop fighting without any concrete evidence why besides "Orb shouldn't fight wars". When they completely unsurprisingly fail to listen to her orders, her response is to yell really loudly and then burst into tears like a child having a tantrum as though she cannot believe it. Basically, Cagalli got shafted throughout Destiny. First she lost her spine, then her country, then her boyfriend, then her swish new mobile suit.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:31
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mr. stefan posted:I kind of wish Tomino was more willing to do panels at conventions just so it could be publicly documented what his reaction to SEED in all its terrible glory was. Why do you think he's even bothered to watch it?
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Nov 5, 2013 02:35
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AzraelNewtype posted:Why do you think he's even bothered to watch it? Because Tomino has a long history of making terrible and kinda goony life decisions.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:37
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Darth Walrus posted:Basically, Cagalli got shafted throughout Destiny. First she lost her spine, then her country, then her boyfriend, then her swish new mobile suit. I love how Cagalli's big moment in Destiny (launching in the Akatsuki and re-taking control of ORB) directly leads to the single worst decision in the entire show. Okay so ZAFT gave ORB an ultimatum to hand over Djibril, and they refused. ZAFT's attack is thus perfectly justified and could have been stopped at any moment if ORB agreed to cooperate. So when Cagalli, who also wants to see Djibril face justice, reacquires power, obviously she'd immediately call a ceasefire. I mean, she was literally crying about how ORB shouldn't fight earlier! It'd make negative sense to, say, rally the ORB troops, fight back against ZAFT, and allow Djibril to escape. oh wait that's exactly what she does Kanos posted:As in, Kira doesn't apologize or offer sympathies for being directly responsible for the death of Shinn's family or Stellar Cagalli expresses no regret for allowing Djibril to destroy a colony, and when Mu regained his memories he apparently washed his hands of all of his deeds as Neo. If you're on Kira/Lacus' side, you can do whatever you want and still be the hero. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 02:39
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And yet Gundam SEED still somehow has less bad decisions than Gundam Age. It's kind of sad that one of the most appealing things about Build Fighters is that characters have coherent motivations as opposed to "BUT CAGALLI IS CRYING" "I am Gundam" and a complete misunderstanding of sunk cost.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:42
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To be honest, everything they did to Athrun and Cagalli in Destiny is the part I hate the most. Athrun basically loses every single bit of character development he got in the original SEED for no reason, then goes ahead and just repeats his entire character arc in Destiny for the worst. Speaking for Shinn, it says a lot when it winds up just being Athrun who is his big final boss. Then as others have said, Cagalli goes from being fairly competent to having her entire character ruined then being a plot device.
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Nov 5, 2013 02:49
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ImpAtom posted:And yet Gundam SEED still somehow has less bad decisions than Gundam Age. "I am Gundam" is all the coherent motivation anyone should ever need. It made sense to Setsuna, and that's what counts. That one joke trailer of 00 making fun of itself is still great. I wish there was something like that for SEED. On that note, I think 00 had one of the most interesting worlds in the franchise. No Earth vs. colonies stuff, just plain old pointless arms races, political dick-waving, and terrorists. It would've been better if the aliens business had never come up and the purpose of CB was just "What the gently caress, Earth? We made these space elevators and ring of solar panels in space so that you morons might get along for once, and now we're going to force you to do it in... not really the brightest way." chumbler fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 02:54
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chumbler posted:"I am Gundam" is all the coherent motivation anyone should ever need. It made sense to Setsuna, and that's what counts. That one joke trailer of 00 making fun of itself is still great. I wish there was something like that for SEED. There are a bunch of SD Gundam SEED shorts actually. The one I remember is Shinn travelling back in time to try to stop Kira and Athrun's friendship and getting defeated by just how tremendously overwhelmingly gay it was. They're actually reasonably funny and zelf-effacing although they're targeted more at dudes like Yzak or Shinn. chumbler posted:On that note, I think 00 had one of the most interesting worlds in the franchise. No Earth vs. colonies stuff, just plain old pointless arms races, political dick-waving, and terrorists. It would've been better if the aliens business had never come up and the purpose of CB was just "What the gently caress, Earth? We made these space elevators and ring of solar panels in space so that you morons might get along for once, and now we're going to force you to do it in... not really the brightest way." The Alien thing would have been fine if they hadn't handled it with 90 minutes of shooting followed by rainbow sparkles resolving everything offscreen. It's like the least interesting resolution to that plotline possible. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 03:00
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Kanos posted:The last scene we get of Shinn before the epilogue is him crying in the dust in the wreckage of his shattered mobile suit as he watches his dreams die and his life fall apart in front of his eyes at the very hands of the person who ruined his life to begin with. Then in the epilogue he "reconciles" with the new regime. As in, Kira doesn't apologize or offer sympathies for being directly responsible for the death of Shinn's family or Stellar and they don't come to a mutual agreement and reconciliation, it's more Shinn being forced to apologize. Can't say as I really agree with this, though in the interest of full disclosure I will say I never got beyond about episode 20 or so of Destiny. I was watching it as it aired and realized after a while that I had downloaded about 10 episodes I'd yet to watch any of because I had gotten so bored of the show around the 15/20 mark and just deleted them and haven't really had any desire to watch it since. Regardless, Shinn's family died due to stray fire in the middle of a battle. It's not really Kira's fault, and Shinn's fixation on blaming him, rather than ORB (though he does appear to blame Cagalli/ORB at the start of the show too), the Federation or the fact that it was a battle was just childish anyways. And that's discounting that I'm pretty sure I've seen people say that the show clarifies the shot in question didn't even come from Kira's suit regardless. Shinn himself will have caused numerous deaths like this in his time because he often fought in cities (Berlin for instance) and at least a few of those shots are going to go astray. In a better show he'd have been confronted by someone with the same motivation for joining the army and climbing in to a mobile suit himself and made peace with the fact that it wasn't murder on the part of the Freedom's pilot - just an unintended consequence of what they felt was a necessary action. ImpAtom posted:There are a bunch of SD Gundam SEED shorts actually. The one I remember is Shinn travelling back in time to try to stop Kira and Athrun's friendship and getting defeated by just how tremendously overwhelmingly gay it was. They're actually reasonably funny and self-effacing although they're targeted more at dudes like Yzak or Shinn. Yea, they're called the SEED Character Theatre if I recall and I remember finding them quite funny when I watched them. As much as any of the other SD Gundam stuff I watched at any rate. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 03:04
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ImpAtom posted:And yet Gundam SEED still somehow has less bad decisions than Gundam Age. All things considered, I really liked 00. I thought season 2 didn't live up and the movie was pretty bad, but I don't regret watching it and I certainly don't regret buying the actual box sets. It certainly had flaws, most of which come from season 2, but it's definitely better than SEED.
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Nov 5, 2013 03:05
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ImpAtom posted:The Alien thing would have been fine if they hadn't handled it with 90 minutes of shooting followed by rainbow sparkles resolving everything offscreen. It's like the least interesting resolution to that plotline possible. The sane ending to the series would probably have been to just cap the series with humanity heading out into the stars with GN-drive ships. Though I do think that "I am Gundam" actually works with Setsuna, considering what he's done as a kid. It's more of a mantra for him to make the world a better place, rather than "I AM GUNDAM   ".
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Nov 5, 2013 03:09
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tsob posted:Regardless, Shinn's family died due to stray fire in the middle of a battle. Actually they died because they were kind of stupid. I think the dad literally says they should have started running earlier. But then, they didn't want to run because they believed in ORB's vow of neutrality soooo. quote:It's not really Kira's fault, It is. The trigger for the attack on ORB was the Archangel staying there, and if Kira had gotten off his high horse and went for the kill on the druggies instead of needlessly drawing out the battle then things probably would have gone better! quote:Shinn's fixation on blaming him, rather than ORB (though he does appear to blame Cagalli/ORB at the start of the show too), the Federation or the fact that it was a battle was just childish anyways. Shinn never, ever blames Kira for killing his family. Hell he probably doesn't even know the Freedom was involved in that battle. All of his enmity with the guy comes from him killing Stellar. Also Shinn's main beef with ORB is again because they directly betrayed their vow of neutrality. Of course that vow was impossible in the first place, but fact is that ORB did gently caress up. quote:And that's discounting that I'm pretty sure I've seen people say that the show clarifies the shot in question didn't even come from Kira's suit regardless. SEED HD supposedly retconned it, yes. Until then it was up in the air, but we can't have Jesus possibly commit a sin. quote:Shinn himself will have caused numerous deaths like this in his time because he often fought in cities (Berlin for instance) and at least a few of those shots are going to go astray. When Shinn fought in Berlin, it was already a burning wasteland due to the Destroy Gundam. In fact, I don't think he fires a single shot; he was more busy trying to calm down Stellar. Also the majority of his fights were on battlefields, I think he only fights in a city twice? At the beginning (where he's in a military base and heads straight for space) and in Berlin (where he doesn't even really fight). EDIT: Hell, Shinn is the guy who, upon seeing soldiers gunning down civilians, went out of his way to rescue them, to the point of being reprimanded for leaving the battlefield. His major motivation for joining the army was so that nobody would ever end up like him. If something like you suggested had happened it would have been pretty dumb. I can't believe I'm saying this, but you should probably watch Seed Destiny before you make judgements on the characters. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 03:16
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Ugh the 00 movie. That would have been a lot better if half the runtime of the film wasn't people shooting at ugly CG blobby stuff, to say nothing of the ending. At least the opening movie was amazing!
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Nov 5, 2013 03:24
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BlitzBlast posted:Cagalli expresses no regret for allowing Djibril to destroy a colony, and when Mu regained his memories he apparently washed his hands of all of his deeds as Neo. If you're on Kira/Lacus' side, you can do whatever you want and still be the hero. I try to gloss over Mwu/Neo myself because it's the most horrifying hand-washing in the entire show. Neo personally commands a platoon of drug-enhanced brainwashed child soldiers that culminates in an atrocity that makes the Bloody Valentine poo poo look pathetic. The big plan with the Destroy Gundam is to land it on the west coast of Europe and pretty much march east leveling every single city in the way until resistance in Europe stops. This is the My Lai Massacre on steroids except it's sanctioned from above. Neo knows it's wrong and openly protests against it but carries it out anyway to save his own skin. Then Kira realizes he's Mwu and suddenly it's okay that he's basically a Nazi war criminal responsible for the deaths of tens or even hundreds of thousands. It's even worse because he's not even entirely on board with the whole "being Mwu" thing. He doesn't hit his head and change personalities, he's not really brainwashed, he's just kind of like "Well, I feel really bad about being one of history's greatest monsters, so maybe hanging out with these guys who seem to like me will make me feel better about that." They even try to make him into a hero by reprising his defense of the Archangel.  tsob posted:Can't say as I really agree with this, though in the interest of full disclosure I will say I never got beyond about episode 20 or so of Destiny. I was watching it as it aired and realized after a while that I had downloaded about 10 episodes I'd yet to watch any of because I had gotten so bored of the show around the 15/20 mark and just deleted them and haven't really had any desire to watch it since. Regardless, Shinn's family died due to stray fire in the middle of a battle. It's not really Kira's fault, and Shinn's fixation on blaming him, rather than ORB (though he does appear to blame Cagalli/ORB at the start of the show too), the Federation or the fact that it was a battle was just childish anyways. And that's discounting that I'm pretty sure I've seen people say that the show clarifies the shot in question didn't even come from Kira's suit regardless. Shinn himself will have caused numerous deaths like this in his time because he often fought in cities (Berlin for instance) and at least a few of those shots are going to go astray. In a better show he'd have been confronted by someone with the same motivation for joining the army and climbing in to a mobile suit himself and made peace with the fact that it wasn't murder on the part of the Freedom's pilot - just an unintended consequence of what they felt was a necessary action. Shinn blames Orb almost entirely, much moreso than he directly blames Kira(most of his anger at Kira comes from Kira murdering Stellar and he doesn't really fixate on his family at that point). He effectively spits in Cagalli's face and he takes incredible relish in taking the Orb fleet apart singlehandedly. Shinn's fixation on blaming Orb and to a lesser extent Kira for his loss comes off as childish because Shinn was a child. His family died when he was like fourteen and he's a gifted child soldier at the age of 17 or 18 when the show takes place. Kira didn't murder his family on purpose, but Kira still caused his family to die. If I'm a soldier and I throw a grenade at an enemy position and the backblast hits and kills some civilians I didn't see, I'm still responsible for those deaths on some level and I still owe them my apologies and sympathy even if I'm not held accountable. I would have actually really loved an episode where Shinn was forced to come to terms with the fact that by the very nature of his profession he causes the same kind of tragedy all the time. Every time he kills a pilot, that's a kid without a father, or a mother without a son, or a brother without a sister. They seemed to be trying to do this with Athrun but Destiny Athrun was so limp-wristed and pathetic that it never worked. Shinn was a character portrayed with enough dynamism and ability to grow that seeing him come to terms with what it means to be a soldier would have been a way more believable and appealing way to have him convert to the cause of peace instead of just having him get the poo poo beaten out of him constantly and lose everything that matters to him besides Luna until he has no way left to resist and has to capitulate by default. But that would require them not effectively writing him out of the show about halfway through. Kanos fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 03:24
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Kanos posted:Shinn's fixation on blaming Orb and to a lesser extent Kira for his loss comes off as childish because Shinn was a child. Honestly? By the time the show starts, Shinn seemed to have kind of gotten over his enmity with ORB. There's even an episode where it's implied that he's more disappointed with ORB's failure to hold true to its ideals then actually angry with it. It takes Cagalli ranting about ORB's ideals right next to him for Shinn to blow his gasket, and that's immediately followed by literally every single interaction the Minerva has with ORB being overwhelmingly negative. When a country that's all about peace forces you out of their harbor and tries to kill you, then shelters a genocidal maniac and directly enables his murder of an entire colony, you do not come out with a very positive view of them. It's probably supposed to be a flaw, but like everything else in Destiny it's executed so poorly that I find myself agreeing with Shinn. gently caress ORB.
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Nov 5, 2013 03:47
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BlitzBlast posted:Honestly? By the time the show starts, Shinn seemed to have kind of gotten over his enmity with ORB. There's even an episode where it's implied that he's more disappointed with ORB's failure to hold true to its ideals then actually angry with it. It takes Cagalli ranting about ORB's ideals right next to him for Shinn to blow his gasket, and that's immediately followed by literally every single interaction the Minerva has with ORB being overwhelmingly negative. When a country that's all about peace forces you out of their harbor and tries to kill you, then shelters a genocidal maniac and directly enables his murder of an entire colony, you do not come out with a very positive view of them. I'm still a firm believer that had Shinn been in any other series, he'd be a pretty darn interesting character.
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Nov 5, 2013 03:49
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:I'm still a firm believer that had Shinn been in any other series, he'd be a pretty darn interesting character. He is still an interesting character even despite Destiny being what it is. He's got a lot of flaws and he's not perfect, but he reacts like a person in his situation and with his knowledge would react rather than acting like he read the script in advance like everyone from Kira's faction.
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Nov 5, 2013 03:55
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Man, I don't think even the most screwed up child soldier would actually agree with the Destiny Plan. But by that point Shinn had long since passed out of the spotlight so I guess it's a moot point.
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Nov 5, 2013 03:57
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Jesus Christ, I watch the old universal century stuff, G Gundam and Turn A, then I hear you guys talk about all the stupidity in SEED and AGE and I wonder what the gently caress happened to Gundam? Well... I think I know what happened to Gundam. I think Bandai happened to Gundam. Well, at least we've gotten some really cool toys, model kits and games in the last decade even though the fiction is mostly poo poo. Gundam has always been kinda goofy and unrealistic, but at least in the UC, G and Turn A character motivations usually make sense. It really kinda amuses me the kind of poo poo people get away with in Gundam though, even in the early stuff. In MSG, Amuro throws a hissy fit, and not only deserts during a time of war, but steals the loving expensive prototype Gundam that is essential for White Base's survival, too. Now, that's not out of character for Amuro because he's a emotional young kid prone to very poor judgements, but the crazy part is that they let him rejoin the crew instead of putting him in front of a firing squad, which is what would have happened in real life. Also, at one point Kai also very casually deserts, decides to come back, and chills out with a Zeon spy on White Base. Kamille constantly disobeys orders, is a huge dick and physically assaults superior officers on multiple occations. And the very worst goes to Beecha and Mondo who actually loving aid the enemy and try to defect, before deciding the Neo Zeons are assholes and decide to come back. In real life all these characters would have very likely been court martialed and executed, especially Beecha and Mondo who were literal traitors. Basically the point of all this is that Captain Bright is the most lenient man in military history would probably let his crew literally get away with murder.
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Nov 5, 2013 04:01
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Kanos posted:He is still an interesting character even despite Destiny being what it is. He's got a lot of flaws and he's not perfect, but he reacts like a person in his situation and with his knowledge would react rather than acting like he read the script in advance like everyone from Kira's faction. I don't want it to sound like I don't like Shinn. He's one of my favorite Gundam protagonists, and I still think had the kept with the idea that Destiny is CE Zeta, watching Athrun growing into a capable, less awkward human via mentoring Shinn, and Shinn not becoming a stereotype would have made for a much better plot, or hell having him eventually still turn to villian and having the final showdown being Athrun having to stop him would have been great instead of Athrun just getting stuck dealing with the Destiny while Kira darts off to be incompetent. I'm still a firm believer as well that had SEED pulled the decoy protagonist bit and instead of Kira surviving an exploding Gundam to the face, he actually died, and then it being the thing that makes Athrun rethink his course of action and defect probably would have made SEED alot better too. I hate SEED mostly because of the potential it had and how much I generally liked some of the other characters. I lost any interest in Kira the moment his little breakdown in the desert happened, and Cagalli pre-destiny was pretty goddamn competent as a pilot and character. It also royally pisses me off that I've thought this much about SEED and what it could have been.
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Nov 5, 2013 04:05
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BlitzBlast posted:Man, I don't think even the most screwed up child soldier would actually agree with the Destiny Plan. But by that point Shinn had long since passed out of the spotlight so I guess it's a moot point. Durandal spends the entire show being a warm and reasonable advocate for peace and moderation. Nothing he ever does is unreasonable or wrong for most of the series and every alternative leader is either totally impotent(Cagalli), an evil fascist guilty of genocide(Djibril), or a worthless toady/puppet(Yuuna). He defends the colonies from an all-out nuclear attack and does not retaliate in kind, sends forces to stop the Alliance from massacring millions of innocent people with the Destroy, exposes an international conspiracy directly responsible for almost all of the suffering and conflict in the world by outing LOGOS, and commits forces to bringing an international terrorist to justice in Djibril. On a more personal level for Shinn he acts as a kind surrogate father figure. Taken as a whole from the viewer's standpoint you can connect the dots and see that all of this is a long-term plan to shore up Durandal's power base, but from Shinn's viewpoint Durandal is a great man. Shinn's a kid who has seen nothing but horrible war and suffering for a significant chunk of his life and now this great man says he has a plan that can help everyone. I mean, his alternatives are the ultrafascist Earth Alliance which actively murders millions of its own people to quash resistance, Orb which he's already seen to be a bunch of hypocritical liars, or the Lacus faction which murdered Stellar and thus far in the story has only shown up to make chaotic battlefields even worse. Kanos fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 04:05
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All of this Seed Destiny talk had me go check out the HD Remaster, and turns out they're up to episode 32. I regret to inform you all that no, they didn't retcon Stella's death into her tripping into the Freedom's beam sabers. Impulse vs Freedom is coming up in two weeks though, so there's still a chance for hilarity!
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Nov 5, 2013 04:12
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Gammatron 64 posted:It really kinda amuses me the kind of poo poo people get away with in Gundam though, even in the early stuff. In MSG, Amuro throws a hissy fit, and not only deserts during a time of war, but steals the loving expensive prototype Gundam that is essential for White Base's survival, too. Now, that's not out of character for Amuro because he's a emotional young kid prone to very poor judgements, but the crazy part is that they let him rejoin the crew instead of putting him in front of a firing squad, which is what would have happened in real life. Also, at one point Kai also very casually deserts, decides to come back, and chills out with a Zeon spy on White Base. It's in no small part because the White Base is in deep enough poo poo as is. Most of the White Base was civilians at that point in the story, there were like... three officers ( TheKingofSprings fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 04:25
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Gammatron 64 posted:Jesus Christ, I watch the old universal century stuff, G Gundam and Turn A, then I hear you guys talk about all the stupidity in SEED and AGE and I wonder what the gently caress happened to Gundam? Bright's leniency towards Amuro seems more out of necessity than anything else. The White Base is seriously undermanned, in the middle of Zeon territory, and dependent on the Gundam for defense. Amuro is the best pilot and the one most experienced in piloting the Gundam. Their back-up pilot (Sayla, I think) has only piloted in simulations. Also, Ramba Ral is really loving threatening. I think Bright just wasn't ready to throw away his best pilot in such a desperate situation. Kai I can't really explain. Kamille is the angriest little bastard in UC but I don't recall him violating many direct orders and the only superior officer he punches is Quattro, who would never lay a finger on him. Katz, on the other hand, is terrible. Discipline on the Argama is pretty terrible. e. gently caress, beaten. Viola the Mad fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Nov 5, 2013 |
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Nov 5, 2013 04:29
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Viola the Mad posted:Bright's leniency towards Amuro seems more out of necessity than anything else. Yeah, agreed. Also most of the crew were civilians and would probably mutiny of Bright started carrying out executions. I just think it's funny, that's all, it's not a real complaint towards MSG or Zeta, as I really love those series. (It's also been a long time since I've seen Zeta, I might have misremembered stuff.) The only one that I still don't buy is Beecha and Mondo in ZZ, but well, it's ZZ, that's not the least of that show's problems. I also still really like Amuro, Kamille and Judau, even though they're huge assholes. In fact, I probably like them because of that. Well, Judau isn't an rear end in a top hat, but the other two definitely are. Maybe that's what Banagher is missing. Instead of being all like "WAR IS BAD GUYS WE SHOULD STOP FIGHTING BECAUSE FIGHTING IS BAD!" he should take a page from Kamille's book and be an angry bastard who is all like "NO gently caress YOU DAD!" and is violent to comical degrees. All the fistfights in Zeta are unintentionally hilarious. In Zeta Gundam, they solve everything with over the top violence. A minor disagreement will get you punched in the jaw. I still think Bright is the most lenient military commander ever, though.
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Nov 5, 2013 04:59
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