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Return to fertility after Mirena removal is around 3 months for most women.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:22
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1337 haxxor pirate posted:I'm so glad this thread exists. Real contributions from sane, articulate humans are so reassuring. Thank you guys! I'm hoping you can all be of help in preparing me for a Paragard appointment at Planned Parenthood. It seems as though I'll be in and out relatively quickly - but seeing as though I'm paying someone to plant copper in my uterus for a very long time I'd like to address concerns and be sure my body's up for it. Is it strange that there seems to be no pre-exam for this sort of thing? For all I know I have a monster uterus and could die upon contact with the thing. I'd like to be thoroughly vetted beforehand, but have no money outside of what's covering the procedure and am not sure if PP would consider something like STD testing or whatnot to be an "additional appointment". Just want to be safe. Huh, well it is generally standard to do STD testing (mainly for chlamydia and gonorrhea) before an IUD insertion. I had a separate consultation appointment where they took samples for the STD testing, did a finger stick to test my hemoglobin/iron levels and probably would have done a pap smear if I hadn't had one that was up to date. Then I got a pregnancy test at the insertion appointment. They didn't go in-depth testing for uterine deformities or anything beyond palpating it the day I got mine inserted. My guess would be because most of them are so rare it costs more than it's worth and most likely your uterus is perfectly normal. So short answer is, yes I did have a "pe-exam" of sorts and yes it was considered a separate appointment that I had to pay for separately. I can't really speak from experience about the abortion thing, but I know that 5-6 months is considered to be more than enough time after a pregnancy for an IUD insertion. So my (non-expert) guess is you're fine there. As for after the insertion, I actually wasn't in any pain at all immediately after. And then when the cramps did kick in, it just felt like a moderately bad period. So basically it wasn't crippling at all and I'd almost hesitate to call it "pain" really. It was just cramps basically. Now when I have cramps I'm not really in the mood mentally to do anything physical like bike riding, but I definitely could have done it.
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Nov 7, 2013 03:51
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You can get an IUD put in at your 6 week appointment post partum, so I can't imagine an abortion in May being an issue. I had 2 Mirenas pre-baby. The first for the full 5 years and the second for a year and a half until I got it taken out in March 1012 to get pregnant. I got pregnant just over a month after getting it out, miscarried, had a D&E, then conceived again after waiting one cycle and had my daughter in May. Got my third Mirena placed at my 6 week follow up visit and I've had it for over 4 months now with no problems. I don't think I would have wanted to bike after the insertion of the first one, but I could have hung around for an hour or so and then biked. Or I could have walked home if it wasn't more than a couple miles. Some women find it crampy enough they wouldn't want to though, so I'd have a back up plan just in case. The 2nd and 3rd insertions I could have done whatever afterward. Also, it's not unusual for the STD testing to take place at the same appointment where they place the IUD. If anything comes up positive they can just put you on antibiotics. This is how it was done for my post-baby IUD. The testing wasn't fully covered by my insurance the way the IUD was (thanks Obama!) but it was less than $20.
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Nov 7, 2013 06:40
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I know I was given a pregnancy test at my IUD appointment but I'm not sure about the STD tests. I just did a urine test so I doubt they did it. I absolutely could not have biked after my insertion. I was in a lot of pain, the cramping I felt was probably some of the worst I'd had in a long time. Even after an hour and some tylenol the pain just went down to a much more tolerable level, but certainly still there for a few hours. I'd suggest a back up plan because honestly how you feel after is hard to predict.
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Nov 7, 2013 08:50
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I've had paragard for 18 months, and my periods seem to get heavier and heavier, now firmly in the murder-pants stage. And, they seem to come during vacation or traveling. It's really pissing me off. I picked the paragard because it was hormone-free. I was previously on the pill, and over time, it really effected my sex drive. Other than the stupid-heavy periods, I like the paragard. I'm approved to switch to mirena. I'm wondering if any ladies have made the switch and can tell me about having no period, and keeping their sex drive? Hopefully?
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Nov 8, 2013 19:45
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As far as me and my Mirena: I haven't had a period since July 2012 and my sex drive is higher than it was on the pill. Now my sex drive was never as drastically impacted by the pill like some women can be, but I noticed a definite increase going over to Mirena. Mirena has no estrogen and the lowest dose of progesterone in hormonal BC which for the most part stays localized. Amenorrhea only affects about 20% of women with Mirena, but it's probably going to lighten your period if it doesn't eliminate it.
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Nov 8, 2013 22:59
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I used it for 6.5 years and never really had any issues with my sex drive. I also had no periods for 6 of those years, just some intermittent spotting every few months. I've had my new one for going on 6 months now. No effect on my sex drive (or breastfeeding). No periods yet, but it's hard to say if that's from the Mirena or the breastfeeding at this point.
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Nov 9, 2013 06:33
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I'm almost two weeks into my Mirena, and one full week off the minipill I was on before insertion, which may or may not have been done on my "period" as the minipill caused mostly weird, unreliable spotting. This. Is. Awesome. With that punctuation. My sex drive is starting to come back just like it did when I went off the pill the first time. Strings are out of the way, it's looking like I'll probably end up with a spotty period instead of a murderpants period, which is cool from the standpoint of not having to deal with blood, but less awesome in that it makes menstrual cup use more of a hassle than it's worth. Wow, that sentence kind of got away from me. But seriously, I've already forgotten how much insertion sucks, and even with some intermittent cramping still going on, I love this stupid little piece of plastic.
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Nov 9, 2013 07:00
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I went from Paragard to Mirena for this exact reason, and it was a snap. Insertion gets easier after the first time, plus they won't have to sound you. The sound to measure the uterus was the fpworst part of my Paragard insertion. Afterwards, I had minimal spotting for the 5 years it was good for. Once I started getting more regular bleeding, I got it replaced. I wasn't using it as my sole form of birth control during this time, of course!
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Nov 9, 2013 08:01
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Not to rub it in for the current discussion, but I thought I would add for the recent posters anxious about Paragard that my most recent period has been pretty moderate flow and almost cramp-free. So it's not murderpants for everybody if you can ride it out for a few months.
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Nov 9, 2013 08:14
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jai Mundi posted:I've had paragard for 18 months, and my periods seem to get heavier and heavier, now firmly in the murder-pants stage. And, they seem to come during vacation or traveling. It's really pissing me off. I picked the paragard because it was hormone-free. I was previously on the pill, and over time, it really effected my sex drive. Other than the stupid-heavy periods, I like the paragard. This was me but to a very bad degree. (My body did not agree with the copper, which is a rare reaction) I had chosen the Paraguard because I too wanted hormone free and the pill was effecting my sex drive once I got into my 30's. I now have the Mirena and it's not like the pill at all for me. Not only are my periods lessened but my sex drive is still the same as with the Paraguard. I've had mine for 6 months now. Some months it's a moderate to light period, some months it's just spotting. edit: I'm in Canada and for every IUD insertion there is a pregnancy and full STD test done beforehand.
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Nov 9, 2013 10:38
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1337 haxxor pirate posted:I'm so glad this thread exists. Real contributions from sane, articulate humans are so reassuring. Thank you guys! I'm hoping you can all be of help in preparing me for a Paragard appointment at Planned Parenthood. It seems as though I'll be in and out relatively quickly - but seeing as though I'm paying someone to plant copper in my uterus for a very long time I'd like to address concerns and be sure my body's up for it. Is it strange that there seems to be no pre-exam for this sort of thing? For all I know I have a monster uterus and could die upon contact with the thing. I'd like to be thoroughly vetted beforehand, but have no money outside of what's covering the procedure and am not sure if PP would consider something like STD testing or whatnot to be an "additional appointment". Just want to be safe. I've worked at Planned Parenthood and in abortion care at several private clinics too. I also have an IUD (Mirena) myself. I've seen protocols both where patients come in for a pre-IUD appointment and where they don't have to. So even though some clinics/clinicians prefer to have some things done earlier, as some other posters have mentioned, it's really not necessary. Everything that's done prior to the insertion can be done that same day. Yes, you need STI testing - chlamydia and gonorrhea specifically - but they can do that testing the same day, even though the results won't come back for a few days. If either test comes back positive you absolutely need treatment, but as long as you get treated very quickly there shouldn't be any harm from having the IUD in already. Other than that, you just need a pregnancy test. They might not tell you that they're doing this testing, but if you give a urine sample before the insertion you can rest assured they're doing a pregnancy test and gonorrhea/chlamydia testing. And all testing should be included in the cost of the procedure (though it's not a bad idea to make sure of that beforehand if you're paying out of pocket? If you have insurance that covers the IUD, it should cover the testing too.) Barring a copper allergy you can be pretty confident you won't die upon contact with this thing.  Your uterus will be measured to make sure it can accommodate the IUD. That's done right before insertion and can be painful, but it's over very quickly. In fact, since you've been pregnant it's likely to be less painful and easier to have the IUD put in than for someone who's never been pregnant (though of course that varies from person to person). Regarding your abortion in May, please don't worry that the receptionist didn't ask you about your pregnancy history! She's right that it shouldn't be a concern or consideration. Clinically, there's no reason not to insert IUDs immediately post-abortion and some clinics do that. By now, six months after your abortion, your uterus is totally normal and back to how it was before the pregnancy (assuming you didn't have any complications from the abortion). Tearing your uterine walls is an unbelievably small risk and it's not increased because of your abortion at all. If anything, I think women who have never been pregnant have a slightly higher risk because their uteri (that sounds weird - I prefer uteruses, haha) are likely smaller. But seriously, a uterine perforation is a teeny tiny risk that I would not worry about at all. Even if it happens, your uterus will almost certainly be able to heal with no lasting damage. And as long as there's no uterine perforation or other injury from insertion, your ability to get pregnant should not be impacted by the IUD after the IUD is removed. Especially with ParaGard. With Mirena, it can take a few months or up to a year for fertility to return to what it was pre-IUD, but with copper your body basically gets back to normal as soon as it's out. I'm totally happy to answer any questions you have specifically about your abortion (and IUD or whatever) - it's my main interest and experience and I love talking about it! So please feel free to PM me  Hope this helps! Bottom line - an IUD is incredibly safe, risks are really low, and your abortion shouldn't have any bearing on it.
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Nov 9, 2013 17:03
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One week and one day until I begin mononessa! I'm 26 and this is my first ever hormonal BC (if we don't count my one encounter with plan b seven years ago). I have hormonal acne, have had the odd ovarian cyst, but have a fairly regular and dependable period (if a long one - maxing out the full 7 days). What kind of hell on earth should my husband and I prepare for as I settle into this? What sort of things should I do/avoid to make it easier?
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Nov 9, 2013 17:24
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Huntersoninski posted:One week and one day until I begin mononessa! I'm 26 and this is my first ever hormonal BC (if we don't count my one encounter with plan b seven years ago). I think the main thing first of all would be to not assume it's destined to be a "hell on earth" experience. You'll most likely be fine.When I first started the pill, I got a few headaches (but that's probably because I personally get hormonal migraines), my acne acted up a little more for a few weeks before it went away almost completely and there was some nausea for the first few days or so. All of that went away except for the headaches, but like I said that's something I had previously and wasn't caused by the pill itself, just aggravated by it. I also always lose about 5 pounds every time I start a pill for some reason.  To make it easier, probably first and foremost is to figure out a pill schedule and stick to it. On a combination pill you have a lot of leeway as far as protection goes, but it helps if you're taking it at the same time everyday. I personally preferred to take mine in the evening but you might not. I don't really know of anything specific you can do to avoid side-effects except to treat whatever symptoms you have as they come.
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Nov 10, 2013 00:45
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Have any of the ladies in here who have a history of cysts and/or endometriosis had incidents where a cyst/endo flare up caused pain and numbness down your leg on the problem side? I've been having stabby, pressing cyst-type pain on my left side for about a week, but then 2 days ago the pain started radiating down my thigh and back (which has happened before) and started to make my thigh tingle and feel like it was falling asleep (which hasn't happened before). I don't really want to go to the doctor (since all they'll do is ultrasound me and tell me that they can't do anything else until my laparoscopy in January), but I'm in pain and uncomfortable and mildly unnerved by the numbness thing 
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Nov 13, 2013 17:27
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That sounds too much like a potential blood clot for me - I'd go to the doctor ASAP
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Nov 13, 2013 17:55
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Huntersoninski posted:That sounds too much like a potential blood clot for me - I'd go to the doctor ASAP It's worth checking out, but it could also be that maybe something is irritating one of the nerves in your leg, as many of those start in the lower back/pelvis and can be affected by conditions in those areas. Is it specific to the front or back of your leg? Blood clots usually form in the veins of the calf and (if they have symptoms) cause pain, swelling and maybe some redness or discoloration of the affected limb. Whatever the case may be, personally I think it's a good idea to see a doctor as soon as you can anytime one of your body parts mysteriously goes numb. Whatever it is, time can be of the essence with these things.
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Nov 14, 2013 00:51
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I always have pain down my leg with cysts. Speaking of which, I can tell there's another one on my right ovary. Next dr.'s visit, I'm asking for a hormone panel.
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Nov 14, 2013 02:35
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NewsGunkie posted:I always have pain down my leg with cysts. I'm in the same boat. My problem side is my right side and if i'm ovulating on that side or if I have a bad period i'll have radiating pain down my right thigh all loving night. Can't be cured with alcohol or OTCs. The special medical washington pain killer weed however works like a charm.
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Nov 14, 2013 05:42
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I got my Skyla IUD inserted last week  and I was wondering how it is going to affect my period. I am naturally on a 5 week (~35 day) cycle. Will the hormones in Skyla make me a 4 week (28 day) cycle like oral birth control pills? As an aside, my doctor placed it using an ultrasound to guide her and inserted it in about 5 minutes with almost no pain (only slight discomfort). LEAGUES better than my last IUD placement attempt. Here's hoping it stays in there this time! Also, she told me not to use my Diva cup. Since I expelled last time I don't want to chance it. I'm hoping the hormones in the IUD will make my periods light enough that I wont need it anyway. I was mega pissed to have to go out and buy tampons though. 
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Nov 14, 2013 16:37
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NewsGunkie posted:I always have pain down my leg with cysts. Turns out I had small cyst that ruptured in a spot that would have been pressing on the nerves in my leg  I called the RN at my doctor's office, who told me to come right in. Then my GP saw me and, after examining me and seeing that my blood pressure had tanked while my heart rate was spiking, sent me to the hospital that has a dedicated gynaecological unit in the ER. Had 3 ultrasounds and spent 10 hours on an IV of The Good Strong Drugs until my vitals stabilized and the doctors were confident that I wasn't going dangerously hemorrhage internally. On a birth control related note, I guess that means the Alesse isn't suppressing ovulation. Back to the drawing board
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Nov 14, 2013 16:40
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Erysipelothrix posted:I got my Skyla IUD inserted last week Your cycle will stay the same. There's no estrogen or "placebo" weeks with a hormonal IUD. So, I don't get my period, but my "cycle" is still the same 28ish days for me. The first weekish of the month, I am crampy and cranky and want all the carbs. I just don't have any uterine lining to shed. About 20% of women with Mirena experience ammenorhea, but I am not sure of the percentage with Skyla.
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Nov 14, 2013 20:40
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Erysipelothrix posted:I got my Skyla IUD inserted last week It's possible your cycle may stay the same or you may have some irregular bleeding for a while. Estrogen is mainly what causes your cycle to regulate on birth control pills and that isn't in Skyla at all. Progestin-only methods are pretty notorious for causing irregular bleeding/spotting but on the bright side, it usually gets better and may possibly not happen at all.
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Nov 14, 2013 23:50
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Just got the "your second specimen was negative" call from the urologist, I am officially contracepted for the foreseeable future barring surprise recanalization. 
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Nov 15, 2013 20:47
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Someone's probably asked this before but what are the best BC options for getting rid of your period (or at least reducing the frequency)? I've been on a few different kinds of BC pills for like 11 years or so. I did once try the generic of Seasonale and after a few months it gave me really horrible cramps to where I couldn't even go to work, so I had to stop doing that and go back to the normal 3 weeks on/1 week off style. Is there a different pill/method I could try? Or maybe just start skipping the placebos with my current pills (generic Orthotricyclen I think)? I'd talk to my doctor first of course but I wanted to see what you guys recommended.
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Nov 16, 2013 10:46
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Mirena is probably the most likely to work. It results in no periods and no spotting for 20% of women who use it, and no regular periods but some intermittent spotting for another ~60%. The remaining 20% will still have regular periods but for almost all it will be much lighter than before the Mirena. Altogether it reduces bleeding in more than 90% of women who use it. I never had any luck with the pill reducing my bleeding but Mirena all but stops it. I just get very light intermittent spotting. Rarely enough to need more than a single pantyliner.
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Nov 16, 2013 13:19
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Ceridwen posted:Mirena is probably the most likely to work. It results in no periods and no spotting for 20% of women who use it, and no regular periods but some intermittent spotting for another ~60%. The remaining 20% will still have regular periods but for almost all it will be much lighter than before the Mirena. Altogether it reduces bleeding in more than 90% of women who use it. I tell my patients about 40% of women on Mirena will have amenorrhea at 6 months based on the literature I've seen.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:40
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HondaCivet posted:Someone's probably asked this before but what are the best BC options for getting rid of your period (or at least reducing the frequency)? I've been on a few different kinds of BC pills for like 11 years or so. I did once try the generic of Seasonale and after a few months it gave me really horrible cramps to where I couldn't even go to work, so I had to stop doing that and go back to the normal 3 weeks on/1 week off style. Is there a different pill/method I could try? Or maybe just start skipping the placebos with my current pills (generic Orthotricyclen I think)? I'd talk to my doctor first of course but I wanted to see what you guys recommended. I was on Loestrin Fe24 for almost 7 years. After the first 6 months or so, I had an extremely light period (like maybe a half day of spotting) about 2 or 3 times a year. I absolutely loved it. I was originally put on that one because I had many-week long heavy periods and the docs never did figure out why. They recently quit making Loestrin and changed it to Ministren (same thing but chewable). Unfortunately I'm on the medical card and it doesn't cover Ministren. There's 24 days of active pills (rather than 21) and the 4 days of placebo are actually iron pills, but I never took them. If I could afford the $90 a month (times 2, as my daughter was on the same thing), I would in a heartbeat. I loved that pill! I started taking Trinessa because it *was* covered on the medical card. I loathe it. I'm breaking out everywhere, I'm going on the 3rd week of a heavy painful period. This is my 4th pack, so I'm hoping my body will stop revolting against itself soon. If not, I'll be talking to my doctor, to find something new. My doctor works for the local OSF hospital,so she cannot/will not do sterilizations and they don't allow IUDs either (I've been debating between getting another Mirena or trying Essure). I really need to find a new one. Being 35 with kids who are 17 and 12...I am done having kids, I'm too old to start over completely.
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Nov 16, 2013 20:23
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I'm 4 months in with my Mirena and everything is awesome except that I am totally going bald. I called my OBGYN and spoke to a nurse who told me two different doctors at the office didn't think it could be attributed to the IUD, but the internet sure says differently. Hundreds of hairs are coming out a day. I have an appointment to get my thyroid and iron levels checked, and in the meantime I'm taking flaxseed oil, biotin and a multivitamin. Also of note: I've lost 20 pounds unintentionally since insertion, have complete amenorrhea and am also a vegetarian, so I guess those could either be causes or symptoms of something more nefarious.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:10
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Absolute Evil posted:I was on Loestrin Fe24 for almost 7 years. After the first 6 months or so, I had an extremely light period (like maybe a half day of spotting) about 2 or 3 times a year. I absolutely loved it. I was originally put on that one because I had many-week long heavy periods and the docs never did figure out why. They recently quit making Loestrin and changed it to Ministren (same thing but chewable). Unfortunately I'm on the medical card and it doesn't cover Ministren. There's 24 days of active pills (rather than 21) and the 4 days of placebo are actually iron pills, but I never took them. If I could afford the $90 a month (times 2, as my daughter was on the same thing), I would in a heartbeat. I loved that pill! When I was on LoEstrin24 and liked the 24 day cycle but needed a slightly higher dose to counteract some side effects, my doctor prescribed me the generic of LoEstrin 21 and then added a couple of extra packs to my prescription. Fill two packs the first time so that you have a pack to take the extra pills from every month. Take 21 pills from one pack, then three from your extra pack, four days off, new pack of 21 and so on. I think Junel and Microgestin are the generics of LoEstrin. Honda Civet: I stacked pills (generic ortho cyclen) with no issue, but I'd get some spotting after 4-6 months, where I'd then have a 5-7 day break to let my body get over it's OH GOD MUST BLEED tendency and then continue on my merry way. There is no medical reason why you have to have a placebo week every month, and I've never had opposition from my doctors about stacking pills. Don't try stacking with a triphasic pill without talking to your doctor because done wrongly it can screw up the effectiveness of the pill. I'm not a big fan of triphasic, there's no real advantages to them but more chance of loving up dosing because you lost a pill or took the wrong color pill on the wrong day.
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Nov 17, 2013 23:12
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With regards to progestogen-only methods, does anyone know if a Mirena IUD would have the same effects on bleeding as Implanon (in the same person)? After Implanon didn't work out for me because of a bleeding issue, my old GP advised me that any other progestogen-only things would have the same effect, but my current doctor keeps saying that it's likely to stop bleeding entirely (I assume based on the literature) so I'm not sure who to trust.
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Nov 18, 2013 14:12
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Problematic bleeding is way more common with Implanon than with Mirena. There is absolutely a chance that you would not have bleeding issues with the Mirena like you did with the implant. No guarantees though.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:04
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Grape Soda posted:Good news! A generic of LoEstrin24 will be available in January. http://www.empr.com/generic-loestrin-24-fe-coming-soon/article/320120/ Merry loving Christmas to me! That is awesome, thanks for spreading the good news. If an end to this Trinessa hell is coming, I can put up with it awhile longer.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:12
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Okay, ladies (and gentlemen, I guess), Paragard insertion tomorrow - how soon after that can I have sex with my long-term partner? I need a happy thought to calm these nerves. Thanks for responses, especially to boquiabierta for the comprehensive, reassuring post.
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Nov 20, 2013 04:05
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1337 haxxor pirate posted:Okay, ladies (and gentlemen, I guess), Paragard insertion tomorrow - how soon after that can I have sex with my long-term partner? I need a happy thought to calm these nerves. Thanks for responses, especially to boquiabierta for the comprehensive, reassuring post. If you want my own Paragard experiences from insertion to the present, click the question mark underneath my avatar. I'm also happy to answer any questions if that doesn't cover it. Anyway, I actually specifically asked my doctor about how soon I could have sex as I was leaving the insertion appointment and her answer was "Whenever you feel up to it again." As I recall, I had my Paragard inserted on a Tuesday and went back to regular sex on Thursday that same week without it causing me any problems. Your experience might vary, it just depends on what you feel like which can be a bit unpredictable. For me it was mostly a mental thing rather than physical discomfort - right after the insertion I was just a little put off by the idea of having yet another thing/person all up in my vagina for a few days. I will add that I had some bleeding for the rest of the week (part of which was my period) so if you or your partner don't like period sex that may be an issue. For me it stopped by the end of that first week though.
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Nov 20, 2013 05:05
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1337 haxxor pirate posted:Okay, ladies (and gentlemen, I guess), Paragard insertion tomorrow - how soon after that can I have sex with my long-term partner? I need a happy thought to calm these nerves. Thanks for responses, especially to boquiabierta for the comprehensive, reassuring post. I can't say I *wanted* to have sex for about a week. You'll be a bit tender and probably spotting a little. Protection wise - my doctor said I was immediately protected and could go home and have a great time if I wanted to, but she noted that she doubted i'd want to.
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Nov 20, 2013 18:58
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Paragard is also the most effective form of emergency contraception we have available.
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Nov 21, 2013 05:19
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superbelch posted:Paragard is also the most effective form of emergency contraception we have available. Emergency birth control? Could you clarify? Like "Oops, the condom broke, we're going to insert this 10-year copper IUD into you, you can take it out in a week, that'll be $800 please?" It doesn't seem effective in terms of feasibility of patient care at all.
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Nov 21, 2013 05:49
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InEscape posted:Emergency birth control? Could you clarify? Like "Oops, the condom broke, we're going to insert this 10-year copper IUD into you, you can take it out in a week, that'll be $800 please?" It doesn't seem effective in terms of feasibility of patient care at all. In a select set of circumstances (e.g. a patient who desires long term contraception and presents having just had unprotected intercourse or the condom broke, etc), it's a great choice.
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Nov 21, 2013 05:57
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InEscape posted:Emergency birth control? Could you clarify? Like "Oops, the condom broke, we're going to insert this 10-year copper IUD into you, you can take it out in a week, that'll be $800 please?" It doesn't seem effective in terms of feasibility of patient care at all. Yeah basically, except you don't take it back out after a week but just leave it in for the usual 12-15 years or however long before that. On the off chance that you need to prevent a pregnancy in a hurry and want to kill two birds with one stone by setting up some long-acting birth control.
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Nov 21, 2013 12:25
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