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Heart Attacks posted:Genuinely paranoid people tend to do stupid things stemming from their paranoia, I think. So their reward is, like, tripping over their own paranoia. Yeah with that kind of group dynamic there's probably a place for Keynesian roleplaying.
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Nov 9, 2013 02:07
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Playing a roleplaying game as though to win a board game really translates into playing a character who's extremely careful, and results-oriented, and probably highly values, I don't know, wealth and security. It's no less genuine than a character who's really impulsive or generous or whatever, and it certainly represents an engagement with the game - there are things in the setting that such characters definitively want and will work to achieve. I don't think there's a point in trying to engineer the former type of character into the latter, or a big problem if either kind of character predominates.
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Nov 9, 2013 02:18
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Evader posted:Hmm. I wouldn't base anything off of totalling charm minimum Essences. It's the kind of thing that rewards Kebaber of Babies (who put all his points into Melee charms) and punishes Sailor Gentleman (who divided his charms between Bureaucracy, Sail, and Thrown).
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Nov 9, 2013 02:20
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Ferrinus posted:Playing a roleplaying game as though to win a board game really translates into playing a character who's extremely careful, and results-oriented, and probably highly values, I don't know, wealth and security. It's no less genuine than a character who's really impulsive or generous or whatever, and it certainly represents an engagement with the game - there are things in the setting that such characters definitively want and will work to achieve. I don't think there's a point in trying to engineer the former type of character into the latter, or a big problem if either kind of character predominates. What about the unimaginable, soul-crushing tedium, though.
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Nov 9, 2013 02:24
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Attorney at Funk posted:What about the unimaginable, soul-crushing tedium, though. Not really sure why a roleplaying game should feature any emotional content besides intermittent sober nodding...?
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Nov 9, 2013 02:30
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Ferrinus posted:Playing a roleplaying game as though to win a board game really translates into playing a character who's extremely careful, and results-oriented, and probably highly values, I don't know, wealth and security. It's no less genuine than a character who's really impulsive or generous or whatever, and it certainly represents an engagement with the game - there are things in the setting that such characters definitively want and will work to achieve. I don't think there's a point in trying to engineer the former type of character into the latter, or a big problem if either kind of character predominates. I mean, that's fine if it's what you're into, but if I'm running a game and your character bores the poo poo out of me, I'm not going to have fun running a game for you and the game's going to stop. So I try to discourage it.
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Nov 9, 2013 02:36
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Attorney at Funk posted:Oh, okay. I don't like handing out benefits for Roleplaying because it feels like bad faith game mastery. Like I think they're there for some other reason, and need to dangle a carrot in front of them to make them do the right thing. It's hardly so. The thing is that a lot of groups have different tolerances for roleplaying. One group may treat the act of mentioning what sort of food your character is eating or, god forbid, saying your lines in-character, are high-concept roleplaying. Another group may wince and sneer when the new guy at their table wants to try to resolve something mechanically (I am not exaggerating to make a point here. I have sat at tables where this has been the case. It's terrifying). And there is everything in-between. It makes sense for a GM to try to incentivize people falling into about the same level. Sure, someone who's just expecting a completely different game won't get anything out of it, and neither will someone already expecting the sort of game that the table is having, but someone who's used to something different but not extremely so will certainly benefit from that little encouragement.
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Nov 9, 2013 05:37
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realbrickwall posted:It's hardly so. The thing is that a lot of groups have different tolerances for roleplaying. One group may treat the act of mentioning what sort of food your character is eating or, god forbid, saying your lines in-character, are high-concept roleplaying. Another group may wince and sneer when the new guy at their table wants to try to resolve something mechanically (I am not exaggerating to make a point here. I have sat at tables where this has been the case. It's terrifying). And there is everything in-between. It makes sense for a GM to try to incentivize people falling into about the same level. Sure, someone who's just expecting a completely different game won't get anything out of it, and neither will someone already expecting the sort of game that the table is having, but someone who's used to something different but not extremely so will certainly benefit from that little encouragement. If there's ever been a game to sneer at attempting to resolve things mechanically, it's Exalted. We've had a few moments where the headache of breaking out various systems just was not worth it, so we fell back on simple opposed die checks to determine stuff like the flow of a Mass Combat fight.
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Nov 9, 2013 06:23
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Calde posted:If there's ever been a game to sneer at attempting to resolve things mechanically, it's Exalted. We've had a few moments where the headache of breaking out various systems just was not worth it, so we fell back on simple opposed die checks to determine stuff like the flow of a Mass Combat fight. That's more an issue of a game trying to encourage players to resolve something using bad mechanics, not a group ignoring basic game mechanics for being too plebeian.
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Nov 9, 2013 20:40
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Calde posted:If there's ever been a game to sneer at attempting to resolve things mechanically, it's Exalted. We've had a few moments where the headache of breaking out various systems just was not worth it, so we fell back on simple opposed die checks to determine stuff like the flow of a Mass Combat fight. Exalted's design has always suffered heavily from swinging between extremes of nebulous ST-ruling and extreme fine-toothed pseudo-simulation, rarely finding good examples of either or a healthy mix somewhere between them. This is then compounded by godawful presentation and formatting that actively fights against the reader understanding it. I've played the game for years and only recently put in the effort to sort out just what Mass combat is even trying to be. Once unravelled, it's not really much worse than normal combat in most ways. It's just hidden behind stupid choices like writing down what formations do inside a sub-heading of how to resolve an attack.
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Nov 9, 2013 21:53
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This thread seems to move like a reptile: brief spans of frantic activity interspersed among long periods of dormancy. I've had some thoughts, and here's what I have come up with so far for Crafts and such. First off, the core of the ideal Exalted game would have at least two layers into which the mechanics can hook: the tactical layer (stuff which is measured in "combat time"), and the strategic layer (stuff which is measured in longer intervals). The strategic layer would function in some ways as the environment: it's what tells you how available various things are for purchase, what level of medical care is available, how healthy & skilled the workforce is, etc. Skills and Charms would not have identical effects on different layers. You could use Medicine to apply first aid on the tactical scale, or recognize a disease or whatever, but on the strategic scale you could use Medicine to affect the social environment: to institute sanitary procedures, to train caregivers, to create or figure out locally sustainable remedies. The tactical and strategic layers would largely NOT interact, and their points of interaction would be the kind of pivotal event where a single speech could change a characteristic of a city or nation. Much like tactical social interaction would hinge on finding & exploiting the leverage points known as Intimacies, using skills or charms on a society would require that you do it at the right time & place, and that you leverage the society's values (the group's "strategic intimacies"). Given the power of an Exalt, it should be possible to create such pivotal events, but it shouldn't ever be as easy as "I cast SHUT UP AND DO WHAT I SAY and they do, looks like we're done here". Affecting stuff on the strategic layer would have an action economy: if you're using your Medicine skill to buff ambient healing conditions, you have less time to do other stuff. Affecting stuff on the strategic layer would have follow-on implications based on the skill and the effect: if you use War to restore order & reduce crime, you will instill some kind of military mindset on the organization. This follow-on stuff should have good and bad implications, and there should be several different skills applicable to most situations. If the new follow-on effects conflict with other "strategic intimacies", then the organization has an internal conflict which could be exploited. You should be able to suppress or replace the conflicting intimacy, but you do so at the expense of doing other things, so the action economy should force you to choose your battles. Interaction between the layers should NOT be limited to Exalts. A heroic mortal could be in the right place at the right time, and by chance some will. With divine or other magical guidance, doing so on purpose becomes more possible. Discovering the circumstances in which such tipping points can occur ought to be the kind of thing Sidereals are really good at, but not limited to them. They should simply get the best toys to find tipping points. (But exploiting the tipping point should NOT be a Sidereal thing, IMHO: they're the ones who can find the shortest and most secure path for motorcycle jumping over the Grand Canyon, but they suck at building motorcycles, riding motorcycles, and remembering to not look down.) Note that this says nothing about every character being able to participate in combat or non-combat. Personally I like systems in which everyone can participate, but that's a separate debate. This would at least define the possible silos.
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Nov 9, 2013 22:42
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Dodge Charms posted:This thread seems to move like a reptile: brief spans of frantic activity interspersed among long periods of dormancy. Where's the loving book Obama, I wanna tootle around an Earthsea archipelago waaaay off in the western ocean that doesnt even remember that there's any other place to live because their tiny boats can't make it that far
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Nov 10, 2013 02:16
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Dodge Charms posted:With divine or other magical guidance, doing so on purpose becomes more possible. Discovering the circumstances in which such tipping points can occur ought to be the kind of thing Sidereals are really good at, but not limited to them. They should simply get the best toys to find tipping points. (But exploiting the tipping point should NOT be a Sidereal thing, IMHO: they're the ones who can find the shortest and most secure path for motorcycle jumping over the Grand Canyon, but they suck at building motorcycles, riding motorcycles, and remembering to not look down.) And also, if you ask them to find the shortest and most secure path for a steam-powered rocket to jump the Snake river, they will shrug their shoulders and say 'dunno'.
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Nov 12, 2013 22:26
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Holden: "Solar Brawl is close to being finished; Resistance is next, after which we can start phase 1 playtesting." Well, that's another slow step forward for Ex3 once they get Resistance finished, which hopefully doesn't take too long. I wonder how they are going to decide who is in for the first phase of play testing. Maybe they will choose people from the old WW thread where Mørke asked for volunteers?
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Nov 12, 2013 22:53
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NIV3K posted:Holden: "Solar Brawl is close to being finished; Resistance is next, after which we can start phase 1 playtesting." Do they mean play testing resistance charms. Or do they mean playing testing "oh gee now were finished of everything, lets play test" kind of play testing? Because, I don't even think anyone knows what charms are left or which ones are all completed to be honest.... It would be nice to get any kind of detailed summary. I feel like they are making a BLT sandwich over the internet, and describing it like "We are almost getting bread finished out, we have bacon and its in the process of being "bacony". Our lettuce is in Phase Crisp. Finally, you are going to LOVE the fact that we are using something other then tomatoes, but those aren't done yet either" Just show us a picture of the sandwich!
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Nov 15, 2013 15:07
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Bardlebee posted:Do they mean play testing resistance charms. Or do they mean playing testing "oh gee now were finished of everything, lets play test" kind of play testing? Because, I don't even think anyone knows what charms are left or which ones are all completed to be honest.... It sounds like after Resistance they will be done with all the combat charms and therefore able to finalize the combat mechanics. At that point they will start general play testing with regards to combat. While that is going on they will keep working on the non-combat charms and probably hope to be done with those by the time the first combat play testing ends, so they can hand that material down to be play tested. Obviously this is just me guessing at what's going on. The other question is how play testing is going to work. As in, how many waves of it and how inclusive each wave will be. Also, the best chance we have of ever seeing mechanics for this game before the PDF is released is probably after play testing has occurred, though that's probably still highly unlikely based on how things have already been.
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Nov 15, 2013 15:57
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NIV3K posted:It sounds like after Resistance they will be done with all the combat charms and therefore able to finalize the combat mechanics. At that point they will start general play testing with regards to combat. While that is going on they will keep working on the non-combat charms and probably hope to be done with those by the time the first combat play testing ends, so they can hand that material down to be play tested. Obviously this is just me guessing at what's going on. I feel like the real reason they have been hush hush about the mechanics is because they don't want to lose sales. A lot of people are already okay with the canon, either 1st or 2nd edition, and if they aren't they have edited out what they don't like in their games. The real thing people are waiting on, and maybe I am speaking out of turn here, is a combat system that doesn't need 3 hours to run through. If they released the system early, which would be perfect for play testing in my opinion, the system would really get its feet to the fire and people would find a bunch of issues they can fix. Unfortunately the turn around to this is that they will lose book sales I think because maybe no one would want to buy the book after they now have the new rules. Just a thought, may not be a real thing.
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Nov 15, 2013 16:22
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Bardlebee posted:I feel like the real reason they have been hush hush about the mechanics is because they don't want to lose sales. A lot of people are already okay with the canon, either 1st or 2nd edition, and if they aren't they have edited out what they don't like in their games. The real thing people are waiting on, and maybe I am speaking out of turn here, is a combat system that doesn't need 3 hours to run through. If they released the system early, which would be perfect for play testing in my opinion, the system would really get its feet to the fire and people would find a bunch of issues they can fix. Unfortunately the turn around to this is that they will lose book sales I think because maybe no one would want to buy the book after they now have the new rules. On the other hand, they have like 4000 people who have already paid for the game with the Kickstarter. Those sales can't be lost, and getting your most invested fans to help out with the game's development has historically been a pretty solid move by Onyx Path. I can't think that the level of negative buzz generated by even the shoddiest mechanics preview would make much of a dent in their future success given the speed with which Exalted fans pledged to the campaign.
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Nov 15, 2013 16:58
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Bardlebee posted:I feel like the real reason they have been hush hush about the mechanics is because they don't want to lose sales. A lot of people are already okay with the canon, either 1st or 2nd edition, and if they aren't they have edited out what they don't like in their games. The real thing people are waiting on, and maybe I am speaking out of turn here, is a combat system that doesn't need 3 hours to run through. If they released the system early, which would be perfect for play testing in my opinion, the system would really get its feet to the fire and people would find a bunch of issues they can fix. Unfortunately the turn around to this is that they will lose book sales I think because maybe no one would want to buy the book after they now have the new rules. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I kind of doubt releasing the combat system for playtesting would put a dent in sales. They've been playtesting the core combat at sorcery systems since at least Aggiecon and behind closed doors for some time prior to that, so at this point I'd at least think Pathfinder Fighter-level absurdities would be ironed out. As long as the core system seems decent, people will be even more excited to buy the book that has all the additional charms, the character generation rules, artifacts, new fluff, kung fu, et cetera. The main argument I recall hearing from them in the past on this is "We're not going to release our core system for free." While that's worked for other RPGs, I think it's a fair position to take. However, we've got quite a lot of eager playtesters who have already paid for the book now. Maybe Stephenls or Plague of Hats can confirm or deny here, but I think Exalted 3e has already sold more copies than anyone expected it to in its first year. I think the only way to lose sales at this point would be to release nothing exciting and let the hype die.
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Nov 15, 2013 17:08
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I wish they'd glance over to Demon, which released a preview PDF of basically their entire book with their kickstarter-- it certainly didn't stop me from pledging support or wanting to buy the complete, formatted text. Basically I wish that the Exalted team would get on the same page as the WoD teams with regards to transparency-- Mummy did extensive previews for months prior to its release, too, and that was even prior to their kickstarter.
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Nov 15, 2013 17:25
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So I've got to ask: is Plague of Hats even involved with Exalted anymore? He hasn't really been posting on this thread and he hasn't really been talking about the game anywhere except grognards.txt.
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Nov 15, 2013 18:46
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Bedlamdan posted:So I've got to ask: is Plague of Hats even involved with Exalted anymore? He hasn't really been posting on this thread and he hasn't really been talking about the game anywhere except grognards.txt. He quit over the Abyssal thing. We haven't mentioned it, because we respect his position and sort of hope we can get him back, but he's been open about it on the White Wolf forum so there's no point in pretending it's a secret.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:35
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Stephenls posted:He quit over the Abyssal thing. We haven't mentioned it, because we respect his position and sort of hope we can get him back, but he's been open about it on the White Wolf forum so there's no point in pretending it's a secret. did he quit because of the reaction or because of the actual preview?
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Nov 15, 2013 19:38
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Stallion Cabana posted:did he quit because of the reaction or because of the actual preview? Preview content. EDIT: And that's all I'll say on it, except to reiterate that we bear him no ill will and would be pretty happy to have him back later.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:41
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Stephenls posted:He quit over the Abyssal thing. We haven't mentioned it, because we respect his position and sort of hope we can get him back, but he's been open about it on the White Wolf forum so there's no point in pretending it's a secret. Wow, I actually had no idea that was the case. Where was it announced?
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Nov 15, 2013 19:42
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Bedlamdan posted:Wow, I actually had no idea that was the case. Where was it announced? It was never "announced" as such. No one wanted to make a big deal out of it.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:43
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Stephenls posted:It was never "announced" as such. No one wanted to make a big deal out of it. That's frustrating.  I like Plague of Hats, and I like Exalted. But I don't think any sort of reconciliation is happening, these things tend not to happen.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:48
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Stephenls posted:He quit over the Abyssal thing. We haven't mentioned it, because we respect his position and sort of hope we can get him back, but he's been open about it on the White Wolf forum so there's no point in pretending it's a secret. Oh dear christ, there goes a big part of my optimism about Ex3. His criticism of the art of 2e really raised my hopes that things would get better this edition, but if he's gone we're just left with Holden in charge saying things like this: Holden posted:Really weird to me that given a picture of a Exalt levitating into the air on wings made of daiklaves, a bunch of socially enlightened thinkers choose to define her by her breasts and gender. About pictures like this:  And, to be honest, I fear than the adolescent mess that was quite a swath of 2E isn't going away any time soon.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:54
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Bedlamdan posted:That's frustrating. I'm still confident that the final product will be more evocative of the reaction Prince Diamond created in the fanbase than the reaction the Abyssal Charm preview created, but the only solid argument I can present in favor of that confidence is the final product itself, which I don't have on hand. The instinct is always going to be to declare "We have enough information now; our current judgment is sound" but I really don't think it is. (And I'm not arguing that this is a currency, where we get credit for stuff like Prince Diamond and incur debt for stuff like the Abyssal Charms, and win if we end with more credit than debt. That's not how it works, and we know it. But the final product will stand as a coherent whole, and I think that whole will be worthy.) (As for the art presented in the recent preview, I actually don't like it much! I also don't care because it's from the tie-in comic, and I hate all tie-in media everywhere forever. Except the Doom novels. And anything by Greg Stolze.)
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Nov 15, 2013 19:55
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Well. At least Demon looks good.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:57
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Attorney at Funk posted:Well. At least Demon looks good. Autism Satan Robot Simulator is awesome.
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Nov 15, 2013 19:59
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Stephenls posted:I'm still confident that the final product will be more evocative of the reaction Prince Diamond created in the fanbase than the reaction the Abyssal Charm preview created, but the only solid argument I can present in favor of that confidence is the final product itself, which I don't have on hand. The instinct is always going to be to declare "We have enough information now; our current judgment is sound" but I really don't think it is. That's fair, but while the art's from the comic and the abyssal charms were a preview that's likely to be changed, Holden's reaction to both of those things make it sound like he doesn't care about the issues involved and is fine with arguing from either ignorance or bad faith. If that's how the guy in charge is behaving when dealing with one of the most pernicious issues in the industry, it doesn't do anything for my confidence in the gameline.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:00
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Stephenls posted:Autism Satan Robot Simulator is awesome. I prefer to think of it as Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Cyborg set in a Nine Inch Nails concept album.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:00
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Flavivirus posted:Oh dear christ, there goes a big part of my optimism about Ex3. His criticism of the art of 2e really raised my hopes that things would get better this edition, but if he's gone we're just left with Holden in charge saying things like this: So, I really have two questions for anyone willing to answer them. 1) Why do you let Holden say things? 2) When you saw that drawing, did the developers just nod their heads and go, "Sure, that's what breasts look like." I mean, I have a lot of problems with 'Uatu The Watcher's What If Psylocke Was An Exalt?', but come on. That's some shamefully bad generic poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:01
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Stephenls posted:Autism Satan Robot Simulator is awesome. This is the best post in this thread.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:02
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I for one wish Plague of Hats best of luck in becoming a full time Internet poster.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:03
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Winson_Paine posted:This is the best post in this thread. Credit goes to Doodmons.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:04
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Plague of Hats quitting bodes very ill, because as far as I can tell he's a cool guy and if he decided to leave then it's probably because the higher-ups refuse to fix the actual problem.Stephenls posted:Autism Satan Robot Simulator is awesome. You know, there's a power in Demon for seducing people, but it works by giving you an addictive, magnetic presence rather than by attaching an "on hit" magic property to your genitalia. What I'm saying here is that thank goodness Exalted isn't going to be so stale, dry, and timid.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:05
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Bedlamdan posted:I for one wish Plague of Hats best of luck in becoming a full time Internet poster. Posting in Grognards.txt might as well be a job anyhow.
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Nov 15, 2013 20:05
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Ferrinus posted:You know, there's a power in Demon for seducing people, but it works by giving you an addictive, magnetic presence rather than by attaching an "on hit" magic property to your genitalia. Not darkly seductive enough for my tastes, what else have you got?
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Nov 15, 2013 20:06
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