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Toadsniff posted:...goat rape, horse rape...  Wait, what? I..I don't remember this. Do I want to know? 
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Nov 16, 2013 00:00
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Red Mundus posted:
The leader of the little cult under the tower had a goat's head and was planning on raping Casca. And when Guts got captured by the holy army he escaped with Farnese and the horse they escaped on got possessed and tried raping her.
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Nov 16, 2013 00:16
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Toadsniff posted:We saw white people murder brown people, goat rape, horse rape, murder fairies, demon pope, we've seen it all.
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Nov 16, 2013 01:20
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Soulcleaver posted:Come now, the pope seems like a pretty cool guy. Blinded by Griffith's bullshit, sure, but not a totally evil bastard or an utterly broken wreck like most people in this series. That might be referring to Mosgus or however that was spelled.
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Nov 16, 2013 02:35
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That was probably my favorite arc. Mozgus is just such a great bad dude.
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Nov 16, 2013 02:36
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Oh, right. Mozgus is a pretty unique Berserk villain in that he doesn't do over-the-top evil poo poo to get ahead or just for fun, but he honestly believes he's helping heretics by torturing and killing them in unbelievably horrific fashions. Kind of like how most real-life villains consider themselves to be good. 
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Nov 16, 2013 03:24
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He also looks really loving cool.
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Nov 16, 2013 04:55
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Tezcatlipoca posted:He also looks really loving cool. 
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Nov 16, 2013 05:43
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Soulcleaver posted:Oh, right. Mozgus is a pretty unique Berserk villain in that he doesn't do over-the-top evil poo poo to get ahead or just for fun, but he honestly believes he's helping heretics by torturing and killing them in unbelievably horrific fashions. Honestly, as much as Eclipse is the most shocking and memorable part of the series, the arc with Mozgus is my personal favorite. It managed to reach the level of hosed up visuals and kickass action of the earlier stuff while having a bit more depth.
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Nov 16, 2013 07:06
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I love that his face isn't like that because hes some crazy monster with demon powers (which he is), but because he spent days smashing his face into a marble floor as part of some self flagellation. Pensive fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Nov 16, 2013 |
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Nov 16, 2013 12:27
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Tezcatlipoca posted:He also looks really loving cool. It also helps that his Fake Apostle form looks incredibly awesome, too. FIST WING ANGEL, HELL YEAH GOD BREATH ATTACK AW YEAH
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Nov 16, 2013 14:21
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Chinaman7000 posted:I just started reading this series randomly, and I think I've experienced every emotion possible. I just hit the Eclipse and am kinda unmotivated and too burned out to keep going. It's just such a gigantic amazing moment I've been waiting for, constantly wandering what the big fall will be. And it was handled brutally and tremendously. And with a little too much gratuitous rape. Griffith's story up till this was probably one of the most compelling and complex character plots I've ever seen or read. I really, really loved it. Really amazing and brutal and just... beyond the wildest expectations I had when you first see Griffith at the start of Gut's origin and know what had to happen. Also, never would have expected a well written love triangle(square?) to be one of the most interesting things in the plot. Well continue reading because it's sooo much better after the eclipse. It's also a lot more brutal and shocking too. Just don't read to quickly since this manga releases about a chapter a year now...
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Nov 16, 2013 14:34
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GoldenNugget posted:Well continue reading because it's sooo much better after the eclipse. It's also a lot more brutal and shocking too. Just don't read to quickly since this manga releases about a chapter a year now... Yeah, I ended up reading further and am still really liking it. Mozgus is really a fun villain. Partially cause he's the only character not somehow motivated by rape/being raped! (Yet?) The weirdest part of all this is that I feel like I've found the source of some of the more hosed up fetishes on the internet. There was an Oblivion or Skyrim mod with dismembered female corpses on sticks as weapons, and I remember thinking "gosh what and hosed up weird thing!" And then I saw the panels with that in this. I don't know. I definitely think the series is genius, but gosh if I don't feel weird for enjoying it when I get to stuff like that.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:18
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My favourite part about that whole arc is that you know it's all going to hell, and then Miura spends volumes letting you know exactly why you don't what that to happen. And then it does and it's the worst thing ever because it's so awful, but also because you've gotten to know everyone involved pretty well. Man I wanna read Golden Age again.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:45
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Shoehead posted:My favourite part about that whole arc is that you know it's all going to hell, and then Miura spends volumes letting you know exactly why you don't what that to happen. And then it does and it's the worst thing ever because it's so awful, but also because you've gotten to know everyone involved pretty well. Golden Age is the leadup to a gut punch that you know is coming and it's goddamn great because of it. Chinaman7000 posted:Yeah, I ended up reading further and am still really liking it. Mozgus is really a fun villain. Partially cause he's the only character not somehow motivated by rape/being raped! (Yet?) That's Oblivion, it came up a few times in the Awful/Awesome Game Mods thread (under the Awful category). I don't think it came from Berserk though.
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Nov 16, 2013 15:49
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Mozguz is like Zodd in that they are humanoid demons for Guts to fight. They are more on par with him than the other demons.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:39
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I think I really liked the Golden Age much more than anything before or after it, so far at least. The first mini-arc giving you a taste of how dark things are for Guts and the world afterwards, and you constantly just wait for the shoe to drop, but Miura still manages to make you tear you apart emotionally. I've said it already, but I really respect how well Griffith's story was told.
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Nov 16, 2013 16:52
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I like the Golden age as well. I like how the the supernatural elements were added because they were needed. The story could have ended naturally unless something spooky happened.
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Nov 16, 2013 17:13
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Pensive posted:I love that his face isn't like that because hes some crazy monster with demon powers (which he is), but because he spent days smashing his face into a marble floor as part of some self flagellation. And even then, he didn't get his demon powers until the very end of that arc. Up until he and his disciples got stung he was just a normal, totally hosed up human being. Every time I read that arc I get a greater appreciation for Mozgus.
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Nov 16, 2013 23:56
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U-DO Burger posted:And even then, he didn't get his demon powers until the very end of that arc. Up until he and his disciples got stung he was just a normal, totally hosed up human being. Every time I read that arc I get a greater appreciation for Mozgus. The thing about Mozgus is that guys like him (minus the awesome face) really did exist and we know it so his actions, no matter how lovely, become believable. He was just doing what he thought was correct out of the goodness of his heart. I also like the Black swordman arc, it is my favorite, followed by the golden age. The pretty much self-contained queen of the elves section is also great and I wish Miura had found the way to do more shorter stories like it.
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Nov 17, 2013 01:06
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Mozgus killed people by smashing their head in with a bible. That's pretty bad rear end.
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Nov 17, 2013 03:07
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trucutru posted:I also like the Black swordman arc, it is my favorite, followed by the golden age. The pretty much self-contained queen of the elves section is also great and I wish Miura had found the way to do more shorter stories like it. Huh, I really didn't like the Black Swordsman arc, it felt like power-fantasy stuff that a teenager would write (which makes sense, since Miura was around 18-19 at the time) and Guts was so unlikable. I stopped reading it after volume 2, and only picked it up again after flipping through volume 7 at a bookstore and realizing how much better the series had gotten. The misty valley storyline is great though. Also the recent arc on the island was a lot like a self contained story. A lot of us were complaining about it because it didn't seem to advance the plot enough.
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Nov 17, 2013 17:21
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Ccs posted:Huh, I really didn't like the Black Swordsman arc, it felt like power-fantasy stuff that a teenager would write (which makes sense, since Miura was around 18-19 at the time) and Guts was so unlikable. Guts being unlikable is kinda the point. We're introduced to this horrible awful person, then we get to see how he became that hosed up. Don't really see how it's power-fantasy, though, considering the brutal punishment Guts takes, and his ultimate loss at the end when he completely fails to harm Femto.
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Nov 17, 2013 21:59
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Yeah, Black Swordsman is about frustration, not power. Sure, Guts kills a lot of monsters but a) they literally never stop coming and b) the slug-demon / nobleman illustrates that at least some of them became monsters out of the same feelings of helplessness that motivate Guts. That said it's still pretty so-so writing, and I think Miura knows this considering that the arc we're in right now re-treads a lot of the same ground but in more detail and nuance.
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Nov 18, 2013 03:20
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It might have been better to just start the series with Guts' horrifying birth instead of a couple so-so volumes then a 10-volume flashback. When I read the first two volumes I wasn't intrigued by this mysterious badass and his undoubtedly tragic past; I thought he was just a Kenshiro ripoff with a sword who was a total dick and chopped up dudes (and horses). Then I got into the Golden Age and it was the best drat comic ever with unbelievably gorgeous art and some astonishing writing. 
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Nov 18, 2013 06:52
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The Black Swordsman arc was more about Guts running away in his senseless fight for vengeance. He could never truly strike back at what he sought to fight; his foes were ultimately far out of his reach, and he wasn't exactly trying to figure out what he needed to do to reach him. All he did was fight and fight and fight, because to fight and lose himself in the berserker rage, was to forget what he had lost and what he couldn't do. He threw away his personality, his compassion, all he cared about because ultimately he was afraid and couldn't own up to what had come of his life. The first arc is important I think in capturing what Guts was. He was just a mindless killer of monsters in a way; all he wanted was revenge, a revenge he could never, ever, ever really have. He fought Apostles because he hated them, just abandoning Caska and his responsibilities in the violent rage. The first arc establishes what Guts was to become, a Berserk thing that was as inhuman as the Apostles he fought. Let's not forget (if my memory is correct, it's been awhile since I read the intro) that the opening chapter of the manga literally has an Apostle afraid of Guts at the end. He was violence incarnate, but without purpose. The second arc, the Golden Age, shows how Guts came to walk that path, the world of human horror the ultimately intersected that of the inhuman horror, and what he wanted vengeance on Griffith. It's where Berserk gets a lot of its voice, yes, but I think it's telling that it's immediately followed with a flashforward arc where Guts is still doing the Black Swordsman thing. The third arc and onward then shows Guts ultimately coming to understand what he actually wants in the inhuman world. He comes to realize that he had something and people to fight for. He didn't need to run away from humanity itself and connections just because of his loss. After this point we see a more mature Guts, still struggling with his very literal inner-demons drawing him towards the "peace of mind" mindless violence, but ultimately stronger and more mature. The more interesting question then, in a world where all he has fought for has been turned against him, what will happen if he loses the foothold he has now? He's found a purpose, he's found a goal, he's found a thing to live for. He's got friends, he's got people who he cares about now. He's got a dream to help Casca. What will happen when that comes to an end? What if, as the Skull Knight said, what he wants for her is not what she wants. What will happen when he loses that anchor, when he's left with nothing? I think that's the ultimately course and path for this narrative. Guts before couldn't strike back at his true foes, but ironically now, after he has turned away from his vengeance, he has gained the strength that just may be able to. I am of the view that ultimately the narrative will lead to Guts having to end the nightmare that has seized the world.
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Nov 18, 2013 07:07
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Soulcleaver posted:It might have been better to just start the series with Guts' horrifying birth instead of a couple so-so volumes then a 10-volume flashback. When I read the first two volumes I wasn't intrigued by this mysterious badass and his undoubtedly tragic past; I thought he was just a Kenshiro ripoff with a sword who was a total dick and chopped up dudes (and horses). I didn't think that much of the Black Swordsman arc either, but structurally it was important for the dramatic irony that powered the Golden Age arc and for the contrast between grimdarkiness and optimism - the panel that sold me on Berserk was a double-age spread of young Guts looking up at all the stars. It showed Miura had the range and ambition to do something special with the uninspiring beginning.
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Nov 18, 2013 11:51
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Zorak posted:words I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your point about the role of the BS arc as part of the overarching narrative, just pointing out that it makes for a very dull and uninspiring beginning to a comic. There are already a few people ITT who mentioned dropping it at the beginning and picking it up again later purely by chance, to say nothing of how many people never gave it that second chance at all.
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Nov 18, 2013 13:16
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The Black Swordman should be first. It lets you know what you're getting into. If you can stomach it you can read this comic.
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Nov 18, 2013 15:04
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It took me more than one or two tries to make it through to the Golden Age, and I also remember being annoyed at the idea of a flashback when the Golden Age started. I definitely wasn't that big of a fan of what I saw as "that's brutal man, gently caress yeeeaaaaah!! also we have naked elves," the manga, and the lack of monsters in Golden Age was weird at first. So it sets you up with an exciting but unlikable hero, and then tries to make you like him while taking away most of the excitement. But I don't think I'd be making GBS threads myself over everything so much if he hadn't run the long game and done so much setup. I think that's part of why it's so special and amazing and effective.
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Nov 18, 2013 15:28
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Golden Age is probably the best and most enduring part of Berserk, but I don't think that necessarily translates to "it should be first for practical, readership-drawing reasons." Given how many people Berserk draws in just by being grimdark without being total garbage, starting with Black Swordsman works fine even if it's less appealing to people who have been reading the series for years or decades.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:09
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Having watched the TV series first, I was already frustrated by the bait and switch that was the first episode compared to the rest of the show. I wasn't thrilled about going through it again in the comics. And now there's 3 movies focusing on it too. Frankly I'm sick of Golden Age, I think Black Swordsman and Misty Valley are much more interesting.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:16
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The thing that makes Black Swordsman necessary is that it makes sure you spend the entirety of Golden Age waiting to see just what the gently caress goes so wrong. Golden Age just wouldn't be the same without that feeling of dread.
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Nov 18, 2013 16:44
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The dread and knowledge is definitely what makes Golden Age amazing. Otherwise it's just a good story with a sucker punch of an ending. It's definitely purposefully less grim and gross and dramatic as the rest of the series and I think I love it because of that.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:09
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Chinaman7000 posted:The dread and knowledge is definitely what makes Golden Age amazing. Otherwise it's just a good story with a sucker punch of an ending. It's definitely purposefully less grim and gross and dramatic as the rest of the series and I think I love it because of that. Exactly. And that's exactly what people think about the original anime. Without something to set up Grifith's transformation, the Eclipse feels like a sudden jump into grimdark absurdity. It's almost like when a kid is telling a story and suddenly says "and then everyone dies!" I'm curious now. Do the movies do this better? All I know about them is from some of the posts in this thread.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:42
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The movies start right in with the Golden Age and shorten or cut a lot of the character development scenes, so no.
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Nov 18, 2013 17:53
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I like how the TV show had one scene from the Black Swordsman arc and then started straight with the Golden Age. The story of Guts is compelling enough. I guess some people like the world he lives in and some people like the character. I don't really care for the demon focused arcs because they turn Guts into Angry Sword Man. I like the chapters lets Guts show his humanity, from being innocent to ruthless.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:06
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Chinaman7000 posted:The dread and knowledge is definitely what makes Golden Age amazing. Otherwise it's just a good story with a sucker punch of an ending. It's definitely purposefully less grim and gross and dramatic as the rest of the series and I think I love it because of that. Yeah, trying to figure out just what could Griffith have possibly done to piss off Guts to that level makes the golden age that much better. And, errr, I confused the name of the arcs and said that the black swordsman one was my favorite because everybody calls Guts him that during the third arc (Conviction) which is actually the one I was thinking about. As for the actual blackswordman arc, it's short and to the point but it does its work as a hook extremely well. The final conversation between Guts and the count's daughter and what happens next is great.
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Nov 18, 2013 18:21
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Chinaman7000 posted:The dread and knowledge is definitely what makes Golden Age amazing. Otherwise it's just a good story with a sucker punch of an ending. It's definitely purposefully less grim and gross and dramatic as the rest of the series and I think I love it because of that. What makes the Golden Age arc amazing is the character interactions between Griffith, Guts, and Casca, as well as all the medieval politicking. It's also the most down to earth and realistic part of the series. All this makes it by far the best arc, imo, and it works very well as its own thing separate from the rest of the manga (one reason why I think the best way to get into Berserk is to watch the original anime).
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Nov 18, 2013 20:27
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Genocyber posted:What makes the Golden Age arc amazing is the character interactions between Griffith, Guts, and Casca, as well as all the medieval politicking. I dunno about the rest of your post but this is what makes it for me. I just wish the dynamic between Guts and his new crew were fleshed out the same way -- or at least that manga chapters came out often enough that I could tell if that's happening or not without doing re-reads every couple years.
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Nov 18, 2013 21:57
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