Fallout: New Vegas: Ain't that a cuck in the bed?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Fallout: New Vegas: Ain't that a cuck in the bed?

Paracelsus: Apr 6, 2009; bless this post ~kya

Xander77 posted:

I'm willing to to chalk that up to indoctrination (which is a tad simplistic, but there's only so much psychological complexity you can expect here). My issue is still with feasibility in terms of scale - not numbers, but percentages.

Repressions are conducted against someone defined as an enemy, whether within or without your territory, for the (ostensible) benefit of the silent/participating majority that is not being repressed - since you can't actually repress the entirety of your population, no matter how bloodthirsty or totalitarian you are. Had the Legion followed the example of the Mongols / Golden Horde / Timurids etc - bloody atrocities in the name of conquest on the borders of the empire, peace and quiet in the territories under secure control, that would have been fine (and we see a nod to that with the notion that trade routes are safe within legion territory). But none of those guys, ancient and modern, turned around and went "rape camps for everyone (slave collars for the others)". Anyone who (mis)understands Hegelian dialectics should be able to do a basic analysis from a Marxist perspective (or going back to Rome, "gold is the lifeblood of war" or something of the sort) about the necessity of a stable population not being actively repressed as it supports your atrocities elsewhere .

To summarize: "We're going to brutalize everyone who is not us" works for a darker shade of grey faction and is realistic-ish. "We're going to brutalize everyone including us", is just stupidly grimdark.

One thing I'm a little confused on is what the distinction is between the groups that the Legion assimilates into its military forces and those it doesn't. There are clearly people living in Legion-conquered territory who benefit from the lack of non-Legion raider groups left in their wake, and who aren't running around in football armor and funky helmets, but one sometimes gets the impression that the Legion is going to enslave everyone it comes across (like the Weathers, who were just traveling).

# ? Nov 17, 2013 18:17

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:34

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

I was under the impression that the Legion only assimilated other tribals, and would enslave/kill non-tribal settlements who either fought back or committed some especially egregious offense (Nipton's disloyalty).

Otherwise they left you alone and all was well. I mean, clearly they had no issues with that one trader, or with Raul, who had to travel through hundreds of miles of their territory and had nothing bad to say about them.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 19:11

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Xander77 posted:

To summarize: "We're going to brutalize everyone who is not us" works for a darker shade of grey faction and is realistic-ish. "We're going to brutalize everyone including us", is just stupidly grimdark.

On the other hand, the Spartans.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 19:14

SpookyLizard: Feb 17, 2009

ManOfTheYear posted:

Meh, I kinda find it irritating in RPGs that I seem to have a uncanny ability to put all my skillpoints in the most useless attributes/skills possible: after checking out this thread and some character build manuals, I realized that my smooth-talking charisma master was a pretty bad choice. The game doesn't seem to be too hard so I guess it doesn't matter too much, but still.

Being a talky-oriented character means two things:

1) You can talk your way out of a lot of situations and solve lots of quests that way. Max out that speech skill, you'll be buddies with everyone
2) Your actual buddies will get a big boost to damage and durability, based on your exact charisma score. So when you can't talk your way out of it, Boone will be even more murdericious.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 19:34

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

caleramaen posted:

On the other hand, the Spartans.

Spartans weren't cartoon villains, they were a xenophobic, caste society with a reputation for asceticism - still, their lifestyle and politics were alluring enough to sustain a large community of Laconophiles throughout the Greek elite strata, and Spartan constitution was seen as a viable and potentially more liberating alternative to that of Athens. They weren't self-brutalizing.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 19:37

Paracelsus: Apr 6, 2009; bless this post ~kya

Wolfsheim posted:

I was under the impression that the Legion only assimilated other tribals, and would enslave/kill non-tribal settlements who either fought back or committed some especially egregious offense (Nipton's disloyalty).

Otherwise they left you alone and all was well. I mean, clearly they had no issues with that one trader, or with Raul, who had to travel through hundreds of miles of their territory and had nothing bad to say about them.

Did the Weathers fight, though? (I never actually talked to Frank before freeing the rest, so I'm not sure about that.) Also Siri seems to be from a town and we don't know what, if anything, they did to merit being destroyed. Aside from Dale Barton, those are the only non-secondhand information we get about people who encounter the Legion and aren't either killed or assimilated.

Also the definition of "tribals" seems a bit hazy. The New Canaanites and Boomers apparently qualify, but they're both organized to the point of being functioning technological civilizations who can rely on their own production systems and not predation for their needs.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 19:54

2house2fly: Nov 14, 2012; You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

I'd guess they're taking NCR citizens as slaves as a terrorist tactic; remember that tape they left behind at Ranger Station Charlie. Once they actually take over a region they'll leave more advanced towns alone for the most part and absorb less advanced tribals, and groups who wish to join like the Great Khans.

steinrokkan posted:

Spartans weren't cartoon villains, they were a xenophobic, caste society with a reputation for asceticism - still, their lifestyle and politics were alluring enough to sustain a large community of Laconophiles throughout the Greek elite strata, and Spartan constitution was seen as a viable and potentially more liberating alternative to that of Athens. They weren't self-brutalizing.

Spartans were pretty chill really. I mean yeah they killed infants who were deemed unworthy, but they didn't actively murder them, they just left them on a remote hillside to be eaten by wolves. It's not like they stabbed them, that would have been cartoonishly villanous.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 20:03

Crazy Joe Wilson: Jul 4, 2007; Justifiably Mad!

Caesar himself mentions the Legion territory has some towns in it; there's Flagstaff, the Legion capital, Two-Sun, Phoenix, and probably quite a few more kicking. Caesar is focused on New Vegas (Much more so than the Dam) because it is so much bigger and pristine, and he sees that as a proper capital for overseeing the transformation of his Legion into an actual empire instead of just a slave army.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 20:12

achillesforever6: Apr 23, 2012; psst you wanna do a communism?

2house2fly posted:

Spartans were pretty chill really. I mean yeah they killed infants who were deemed unworthy, but they didn't actively murder them, they just left them on a remote hillside to be eaten by wolves. It's not like they stabbed them, that would have been cartoonishly villanous.

The Spartans had a time of the year when they actively hunted down their own slaves and killed them, hell iirc to become a Spartan soldier you were expected to kill a helot as your rite of passage.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 20:17

Magical Zero: Aug 21, 2008; The colour out of space.

2house2fly posted:

Spartans were pretty chill really. I mean yeah they killed infants who were deemed unworthy, but they didn't actively murder them, they just left them on a remote hillside to be eaten by wolves. It's not like they stabbed them, that would have been cartoonishly villanous.

Murdering infants through exposure was practiced in all of Greece at the time. In fact the Spartans were arguably more humane about it because the decision was made by a group (of men) rather than just the child's father. Under early Roman law, a father was legally required to murder a deformed infant.

Twelve Tables of Rome posted:

Law III.

A father shall immediately put to death a son recently born, who is a monster, or has a form different from that of members of the human race.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 20:19

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

achillesforever6 posted:

The Spartans had a time of the year when they actively hunted down their own slaves and killed them, hell iirc to become a Spartan soldier you were expected to kill a helot as your rite of passage.

Which doesn't add to the argument on hand in one way or another. Nobody disputed that there were civilizations with appetite for killing the Other.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 20:24

ManOfTheYear: Jan 5, 2013

Thanks for the answers guys. I read a couple of character guides and all of them were dissing charisma.

My high charisma would explain how the game got super easy after I ran into Veronica: she literally one-shots everything. I don't have the sound on when I play because I'm listening to Game Grumps or music so oftentimes I realize I'm in combat only because the game cuts on the last enemy kill-cam and the decapitated head flies through the screen. When I gave her a good heavy armor she has to face a barricade of gunfire and surface-to-air missiles to stop her coming to punch the enemy to death. Everybody's already dead when I'm still thinking about aiming my gun.

She really deserves that dress.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 21:24

razorrozar: Feb 21, 2012; by Cyrano4747

ManOfTheYear posted:

Thanks for the answers guys. I read a couple of character guides and all of them were dissing charisma.

My high charisma would explain how the game got super easy after I ran into Veronica: she literally one-shots everything. I don't have the sound on when I play because I'm listening to Game Grumps or music so oftentimes I realize I'm in combat only because the game cuts on the last enemy kill-cam and the decapitated head flies through the screen. When I gave her a good heavy armor she has to face a barricade of gunfire and surface-to-air missiles to stop her coming to punch the enemy to death. Everybody's already dead when I'm still thinking about aiming my gun.

She really deserves that dress.

If you're playing on PC, get a mod that lets you have multiple companions. Veronica, Boone, and Cass can handle anything in the game on their own, especially with high Charisma.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 21:28

Xander77: Apr 6, 2009; Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.

steinrokkan posted:

Which doesn't add to the argument on hand in one way or another. Nobody disputed that there were civilizations with appetite for killing the Other.

I believe he's referring to the horribly mistreated helots outnumbering the Spartans by a significant margin and not succeeding in any significant rebellions and/or the way Spartan females were brutalized. Which is a point, I'll admit.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 21:41

sweet geek swag: Mar 29, 2006; Adjust lasers to FUN!

Xander77 posted:

I believe he's referring to the horribly mistreated helots outnumbering the Spartans by a significant margin and not succeeding in any significant rebellions and/or the way Spartan females were brutalized. Which is a point, I'll admit.

Plus the fact that the Spartans completely destroyed their own society so that they could keep the Helots as slaves. The Laconic ideal was a product of the Spartans brutalizing themselves by forcing compulsory permanent military service. The Legion isn't just just similar to the Spartans, they are almost exactly alike in pretty much every respect that actually matters.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:14

Crappy Jack: Nov 21, 2005; We got some serious shit to discuss.

ManOfTheYear posted:

Thanks for the answers guys. I read a couple of character guides and all of them were dissing charisma.

My high charisma would explain how the game got super easy after I ran into Veronica: she literally one-shots everything. I don't have the sound on when I play because I'm listening to Game Grumps or music so oftentimes I realize I'm in combat only because the game cuts on the last enemy kill-cam and the decapitated head flies through the screen. When I gave her a good heavy armor she has to face a barricade of gunfire and surface-to-air missiles to stop her coming to punch the enemy to death. Everybody's already dead when I'm still thinking about aiming my gun.

She really deserves that dress.

Yeah, playing a high charisma character with Boone in tow means that combat situations go like this.

You're walking along. Boone says something. The game cuts to a killcam of a feral mutant about a mile away with its head exploding. Boone holsters his rifle.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:14

closeted republican: Sep 9, 2005

Someone should do a technical pacifist playthrough where they rely only on NPCs to kill enemies. Hey, it's not your fault someone was killed if you didn't pull the trigger. :v:

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:25

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

closeted republican posted:

Someone should do a technical pacifist playthrough where they rely only on NPCs to kill enemies. Hey, it's not your fault someone was killed if you didn't pull the trigger.

You don't even need companions to kill people for you, you can finish the game perfectly well non-violently.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:26

DeathChicken: Jul 9, 2012; Nonsense. I have not yet begun to defile myself.

Except the Fiends are everywhere and aren't interested in hearing you talk.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:29

razorrozar: Feb 21, 2012; by Cyrano4747

MrL_JaKiri posted:

You don't even need companions to kill people for you, you can finish the game perfectly well non-violently.

So you just run from all the radscorpions and geckos and ants and the pre-hostile enemies like the convicts in Primm? Seems a little unreasonable, if you ask me.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:29

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

razorrozar posted:

So you just run from all the radscorpions and geckos and ants and the pre-hostile enemies like the convicts in Primm? Seems a little unreasonable, if you ask me.

Just traditional early level RPG gameplay, ask the BG thread.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:34

Wolfsheim: Dec 23, 2003; "Ah," Ratz had said, at last, "the artiste."

MrL_JaKiri posted:

You don't even need companions to kill people for you, you can finish the game perfectly well non-violently.

Ironically a run where you don't kill anyone is one of the most sociopathic, because instead of outright killing House you expose him to the air and then stuff him back in his metal casket to slowly and painfully die of disease instead.

Not exactly a way to play the good pacifist.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:37

Fereydun: May 9, 2008

closeted republican posted:

Someone should do a technical pacifist playthrough where they rely only on NPCs to kill enemies. Hey, it's not your fault someone was killed if you didn't pull the trigger.

I have done this, but I'm on a significantly modded game.

It probably still ended up the same as an unmodded one- that is to say, 10 Charisma, Boone and E-DE blowing everyone away while I cower in a corner doing a shitload of drugs to survive.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:38

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Wolfsheim posted:

Ironically a run where you don't kill anyone is one of the most sociopathic, because instead of outright killing House you expose him to the air and then stuff him back in his metal casket to slowly and painfully die of disease instead.

Not exactly a way to play the good pacifist.

I did the merciful thing and put a chainsaw through his torso. I'm such a nice guy :v:

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:42

Paracelsus: Apr 6, 2009; bless this post ~kya

razorrozar posted:

So you just run from all the radscorpions and geckos and ants and the pre-hostile enemies like the convicts in Primm? Seems a little unreasonable, if you ask me.

Grab the Stealth Boy from the Goodsprings Schoolhouse safe (you may need to put up with some mantises, but they aren't much of a threat), head to Niel's Shack, get up on the ridge along the road, turn on your Stealth Boy, and run to Repconn HQ or thereabouts. From there you can head east to 188 to pick up Veronica, then north along the east side of Vegas where there are no enemies. Get into Freeside, earn caps running errands or gambling, get a passport from Ralph if you have 50 Speech or pony up for the securitrons if you don't. You're in the Strip. Alternately, if you can pick up NCR armor somewhere, you can try and outrun the Fiends to McCarren, don the armor, and take the monorail. That's a huge chunk of the game bypassed without firing a shot.

I wouldn't recommend trying to pacifist through the DLCs, though.

Paracelsus fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Nov 17, 2013

# ? Nov 17, 2013 22:47

Byzantine: Sep 1, 2007

caleramaen posted:

Plus the fact that the Spartans completely destroyed their own society so that they could keep the Helots as slaves. The Laconic ideal was a product of the Spartans brutalizing themselves by forcing compulsory permanent military service. The Legion isn't just just similar to the Spartans, they are almost exactly alike in pretty much every respect that actually matters.

Sparta was the most woman-friendly state of the ancient world, though (as long as you were a Spartan woman). They got full educations, could leave their homes unattended, had the power of divorce and inheritance, and competed with men in athletic competitions, including the Olympic Games. When King Pyrrhus attacked Sparta, an entire phalanx of the army that stood against him was women.

The Legion got all the shittiest parts of Rome and Sparta with none of their upsides.

# ? Nov 17, 2013 23:01

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Paracelsus posted:

Grab the Stealth Boy from the Goodsprings Schoolhouse safe (you may need to put up with some mantises, but they aren't much of a threat), head to Niel's Shack, get up on the ridge along the road, turn on your Stealth Boy, and run to Repconn HQ or thereabouts. From there you can head east to 188 to pick up Veronica, then north along the east side of Vegas where there are no enemies. Get into Freeside, earn caps running errands or gambling, get a passport from Ralph if you have 50 Speech or pony up for the securitrons if you don't. You're in the Strip. Alternately, if you can pick up NCR armor somewhere, you can try and outrun the Fiends to McCarren, don the armor, and take the monorail. That's a huge chunk of the game bypassed without firing a shot.

I just followed the normal path (skipping everything along the way to Novac, though)

# ? Nov 17, 2013 23:05

Magical Zero: Aug 21, 2008; The colour out of space.

Byzantine posted:

Sparta was the most woman-friendly state of the ancient world, though (as long as you were a Spartan woman). They got full educations, could leave their homes unattended, had the power of divorce and inheritance, and competed with men in athletic competitions, including the Olympic Games. When King Pyrrhus attacked Sparta, an entire phalanx of the army that stood against him was women.

They also had the shortest skirts. :agesilaus:

# ? Nov 18, 2013 00:22

AwkwardKnob: Dec 29, 2004; A good pun is like a good steak: A rare medium well done

I haven't posted in here in a while because I've been playing other games and living life but I just wanted to chime in randomly and say that few games have ever given me so many wonderful good times and enjoyment as Fallout

Sorry if this gets discussed every 10 pages or something, but has anyone heard any kind of rumors about the next game they might make? I have always hoped for some kind of super-next-gen version of Fallout that had enormous open gameworlds and really nice graphics. Imagine Fallout set in the kind of gameworld Destiny is creating...

# ? Nov 18, 2013 00:23

Raygereio: Nov 12, 2012

AwkwardKnob posted:

Sorry if this gets discussed every 10 pages or something, but has anyone heard any kind of rumors about the next game they might make? I have always hoped for some kind of super-next-gen version of Fallout that had enormous open gameworlds and really nice graphics. Imagine Fallout set in the kind of gameworld Destiny is creating...

Well, there's this: http://thesurvivor2299.com. And Bethesda apparently filed a trademark for "Fallout 4" recently.
I would not be suprised if Fallout 4 is happening.

AwkwardKnob posted:

I have always hoped for some kind of super-next-gen version of Fallout that had enormous open gameworlds and really nice graphics.

I'd say it's a safe bet a new Fallout game now is going to be using a tweaked version of the Skyrim's Creation Engine. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 00:46

Fantastic Alice: Jan 23, 2012

Raygereio posted:

Well, there's this: http://thesurvivor2299.com. And Bethesda apparently filed a trademark for "Fallout 4" recently.
I would not be suprised if Fallout 4 is happening.

I'd say it's a safe bet a new Fallout game now is going to be using a tweaked version of the Skyrim's Creation Engine. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

So a tweaked version of a tweaked version of Gamebryo.

Right so low expectations.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 01:40

Lil Swamp Booger Baby: Aug 1, 1981

Raygereio posted:

Well, there's this: http://thesurvivor2299.com. And Bethesda apparently filed a trademark for "Fallout 4" recently.
I would not be suprised if Fallout 4 is happening.

I'd say it's a safe bet a new Fallout game now is going to be using a tweaked version of the Skyrim's Creation Engine. Adjust your expectations accordingly.

It's a Bethesda developed Fallout game, I have pre-emptively stopped caring.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 01:42

graynull: Dec 2, 2005; Did I misread all the signs?

xanthan posted:

So a tweaked version of a tweaked version of Gamebryo.

Right so low expectations.

It could be, though I believe Zenimax recently filed for a patent on the id software 'void' engine, so it's hard to say. Skyrim's engine was certainly better than NV in my experience, though not without its issues. Not sure if a new engine would be harder to mod on though. I didn't play Rage, which was the last id game that I can recall. How was that engine?

# ? Nov 18, 2013 01:45

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Skyrim's engine was better but still not good. The worst thing about it is most of the animations are still pretty poo poo and if they haven't hired better animators then Fallout 4's are going to be too.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 02:45

HitTheTargets: Mar 3, 2006; I came here to laugh at you.

As long as we get Macho Man Randy Savage as a Super Mutant Behemoth, I think it'll be worth it.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 02:58

Shirkelton: Apr 6, 2009; I'm not loyal to anything, General... except the dream.

For a second, I forgot about those mods and thought you meant that as an example of celebrity casting and then I got really sad.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 03:04

AwkwardKnob: Dec 29, 2004; A good pun is like a good steak: A rare medium well done

HOLY poo poo I just read the Fallout 4 trademark. gently caress. Yes.

Admittedly, I'm going to be kind of let down if they use the same engine again because it's most definitely not next-gen by any standards. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I would need some convincing as to what the big plan was to kick the game up a notch.

Just give me a larger, more fleshed out game world full of wild life and tons of environmental effects and I'll be happy. Metro Last Light pulled this off supremely well and that was released a while ago for older hardware.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 06:08

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

AwkwardKnob posted:

Admittedly, I'm going to be kind of let down if they use the same engine again because it's most definitely not next-gen by any standards. It wouldn't be a deal breaker for me but I would need some convincing as to what the big plan was to kick the game up a notch.

To be fair, there seems to be stuff they can do with Creation that they didn't with Skyrim. For example, someone managed to get a makeshift rope climbing mod which means you probably could pull of climbing ladders and such. Frostfall has fun contextual animations like your character warming and wringing his/her hands by a fire. You can also show different weapons on the character model. Visual mods also show that the game can be down-right beautiful at times. That's also not taking into account new and better hardware meaning things like more NPCS, more immersive/larger/detailed settlements, and a larger map. Sure, it will probably still be aesthetically behind a lot of other games, but Bethesda RPGs are a different beast than even their open world brethren like Assassin's Creed and GTA.

It's going to be the writing and probably the level progression that we'll have to watch out for with Fallout 4.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 06:33

McTimmy: Feb 29, 2008

I had an absolute blast with my pacifist run. I took a whole bunch of perks I'd never bother with otherwise and got to enact some really creative solutions to the kill quests.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 06:44

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 16:34

Monster w21 Faces: May 11, 2006; "What the fuck is that?"
"What the fuck is this?!"

graynull posted:

It could be, though I believe Zenimax recently filed for a patent on the id software 'void' engine, so it's hard to say. Skyrim's engine was certainly better than NV in my experience, though not without its issues. Not sure if a new engine would be harder to mod on though. I didn't play Rage, which was the last id game that I can recall. How was that engine?

iD Tech 5 is gorgeous. My only fear is that we lose the modular mod system.

# ? Nov 18, 2013 08:45

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