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NecroMonster posted:And I wouldn't at all be certain that Contessa killed Taylor, especially after one of the ends of this chapter that Wildbow edited into the current one, it was practically a straight line from a comedy act. What got edited in?
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Nov 18, 2013 07:26
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Teacher said something along the lines of "Contessa shot her, she's dead". It looks like it got edited out.
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Nov 18, 2013 08:45
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berenzen posted:Teacher said something along the lines of "Contessa shot her, she's dead". It looks like it got edited out. More like "Contessa shot her", without actually saying she's dead.
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Nov 18, 2013 08:53
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NecroMonster posted:You didn't miss anything. I figure it's almost certain with the comments about the thing's appearance. It's pretty consistent with Eidelon's descriptions as below average, disappointing, stuff about his nose and ears and so on.
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Nov 18, 2013 09:10
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I'm 100% convinced Taylor is dead now that we know what the glass tube was for.
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Nov 18, 2013 10:06
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The last line was. "Contessa shot her in the head!" or something very close to that. Ok so anyway, really loving crazy idea here. What if the shard didn't actually take over Taylor's body, what if what actually happened way Taylor's mind and the shards "mind" switched bodies. So the administrator ended up in Taylor's body, and Taylor ended up in a giant alien hunk of crystal on some earth in a dimension that no one can find. What would happen if someone used that "administrator" shard as the basis for the creation of a new "entity"?
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Nov 18, 2013 20:00
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NecroMonster posted:Ok so anyway, really loving crazy idea here. What if the shard didn't actually take over Taylor's body[?]... It didn't. Holy poo poo, you're right!!! (up to where I cut off your quote, that is. Everything after is nonsense and would be a boring story.) [Edit] I feel that maybe I should clarify the first half of my post more, so it doesn't feel quite as antagonistic. As far as we know, at the end, Taylor was just Taylor doing the best she could with what she was given. It sucked, yes; she had to make tough and terrible decisions, absolutely; but to try and go "No, no, it wasn't her. Some alien entity took over there. She would never do that!" Cheapens the whole ending. It reduces the things that make it an interesting and discussion-worthy ending into a deus ex machina. It was a heartbreaking and gut-wrenching ending because she had to become what she hated to save humanity. It's a wonderful ending because she decided it was worth destroying herself utterly to save mankind. Weighing in on this chapter: I liked it, in general, but it feels like, if it's not a sequel-hook, it's a setup for something that is going to be resolved in way to short a time span. It's basically gotta be a "Hey, look, Teacher's got this grand plan-- OH SNAP, he got STOMPED, Y'ALL!" And that, while satisfying if it's everyone getting back at him, seems kinda pointless to give him an interlude for, y'know? Blasphemeral fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Nov 18, 2013 |
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Nov 18, 2013 20:39
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Blasphemeral posted:It's a wonderful ending because she decided it was worth destroying herself utterly to save mankind. Nah, it's a pretty terrible ending if Taylor is unequivocally dead. I'll save posting something longer until the update tonight hits, but sufficed to say if she is dead it undermines her entire arc and leaves the story with an ending that does not really match the tone of everything that came before it.
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Nov 18, 2013 23:08
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Skippy McPants posted:Nah, it's a pretty terrible ending if Taylor is unequivocally dead. I'll save posting something longer until the update tonight hits, but sufficed to say if she is dead it undermines her entire arc and leaves the story with an ending that does not really match the tone of everything that came before it. I thought this until I read Bitch's epilogue. Taylor's arc doesn't end with Taylor.
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Nov 18, 2013 23:52
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Squinty posted:I thought this until I read Bitch's epilogue. Taylor's arc doesn't end with Taylor. I mean her friends are going to remember her, yeah. That doesn't mean I'm okay with having her get monologued at and murdered by the most sanctimonious character in the story. There are just so, so many problems with how that scene plays out if it is where Taylor comes to an end.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:04
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Blasphemeral posted:It didn't. Holy poo poo, you're right!!! (up to where I cut off your quote, that is. Everything after is nonsense and would be a boring story.) I still think it's silly to think Taylor's alive. All the interludes have been interesting back story that don't really drive the main plot at all (with a very few notable exceptions). This one shows you that teacher was trying to figure out countessa, and gives you a look at how he operates and what his goals are. In terms of pointlessness, I don't think it's any more or less pointless than any of the other interludes in this chapter. The story is already over, these are just short looks into the life of minor characters. Skippy McPants posted:I mean her friends are going to remember her, yeah. That doesn't mean I'm okay with having her get monologued at and murdered by the most sanctimonious character in the story. There are just so, so many problems with how that scene plays out if it is where Taylor comes to an end. Look, a thing on which we disagree. Of course, I'm still curious to hear (tomorrow) your issues in detail.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:07
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Skippy McPants posted:leaves the story with an ending that does not really match the tone of everything that came before it. Said tone being "Everyone dies, forever, poo poo sucks"?
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Nov 19, 2013 00:47
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Skippy McPants posted:Nah, it's a pretty terrible ending if Taylor is unequivocally dead. I'll save posting something longer until the update tonight hits, but sufficed to say if she is dead it undermines her entire arc and leaves the story with an ending that does not really match the tone of everything that came before it. Skippy McPants posted:I mean her friends are going to remember her, yeah. That doesn't mean I'm okay with having her get monologued at and murdered by the most sanctimonious character in the story. There are just so, so many problems with how that scene plays out if it is where Taylor comes to an end. Here's the thing, for me. Contessa is a lovely person. Yes, absolutely. The sad thing about life is this, though: lovely people often come out ahead in the short term. Good people, though? Usually don't. It's very real if it stays that way. I'd be ok if she's alive, too, but if she is really dead, it's still a good ending to me. The thing with being a good person? You shouldn't expect rewards. You should do what's right because it is what's right. It takes a very special kind of conviction to know that, if you do this thing that you believe to be the right thing to do, you may die terribly with no celebration, with no one to remember your sacrifice; and yet, you do it anyway. That kind of self-sacrifice is rarely seen, and is something truly special. Squinty posted:I thought this until I read Bitch's epilogue. Taylor's arc doesn't end with Taylor. ^ This. And if her friends remember her being something of an ideal, someone higher and greater that they can strive to be? That's the real win for her. She can affect far greater change long-term if she inspires people. Like a lot of people have pointed out: her killing scion? If she gets popped in the head by the most amoral lovely person in the series, does her sacrifice mean anything? If everyone then goes about killing each-other anyway and humanity ends despite her sacrifice, was her sacrifice in vain? The answer to that question comes from people like Bitch. The people who are most screwed up-- if they find strength in what Taylor did, a lot of others will too. And that's what's important. Real life is full of people who died unjustly. Many of those people died for a cause. Even if they didn't get what they deserved, I bet just about any of them would say, if they were alive now looking back, that it was worth it for the lives they touched; the people they changed. ... Or am I wrong, do you think?
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Nov 19, 2013 02:14
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Lprsti99 posted:Said tone being "Everyone dies, forever, poo poo sucks"? Pretty much, which is not at all the tone of the entire rest of the serial. Blasphemeral posted:... Or am I wrong, do you think? Mostly. Like I said, give it a few hours. To put it in a nutshell though, this wasn't real life. The level of ~*Real*~ bleakness does not align with the degree of fantasy contained in the rest of the story. If Taylor is dead we have an ending of Watchmen level bleakness, but without the bleakness that permeated everything which came before. And should have if Wildbow was going for an ending like that. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 02:20
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Well Worm is pretty drat bleak, but the actual main message here is that people who actually really try to make the world a better place, or save others, despite their own flaws and the flaws of others can succeed. The world is (mostly) only a horrible poo poo-ball full of assholes because those people all continue to be loving assholes It'd be pretty god damned poo poo if no one else learned this lesson from Taylor in time to save Taylor.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:12
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NecroMonster posted:It'd be pretty god damned poo poo if no one else learned this lesson from Taylor in time to save Taylor. This. It's a logically consistent ending, but it's insufferably fatalistic and, I would argue, not in keeping with the tone of the story as a whole. It also makes any sequel more or less pointless, for the same reason I wouldn't care to read a Watchmen sequel. If nobody learned anything and everything it poo poo forever why would I want to get invested again?
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Nov 19, 2013 04:25
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Also, one of the things that makes Worm as good as it is is that it not only takes the genre conventions of super hero comics and sticks them into a more "real" world, but it also treats those conventions intelligently and consistently. And dead people are notoriously bad at staying dead in super hero comics.
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Nov 19, 2013 04:39
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All right, that's an ending I can live with. Well done Wildbow for not pausing at the finish line to screw a pooch. As for my issues with the story if Taylor had been dead, the update summarizes it quite nicely. “A choice?” “Life and death. Or so I thought. I chose death, and she gave me life, and I’m still trying to reconcile why.” Taylor was suicidal, allowing her to die in that moment would have been hideously nihilistic. Far beyond the scope of anything the story had sunk to before. The entire core of the story is a depressed, overworked and under socialized teen trying to come to terms with herself, persevere and do the right thing. Having her end in suicide would just be... ugh, no. Nononono. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 06:40
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NecroMonster posted:Also, one of the things that makes Worm as good as it is is that it not only takes the genre conventions of super hero comics and sticks them into a more "real" world, but it also treats those conventions intelligently and consistently. Welp, you called it. She's alive, bullet brain surgery to remove her powers... Who was the twit they were trying to convince, and why?
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Nov 19, 2013 06:49
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Poor Grue, that oil rig scene really did kill off a lot of people.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:50
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TOOT BOOT posted:Welp, you called it. She's alive, bullet brain surgery to remove her powers... Which seems kind of pointless. The idea that is was Taylor's powers that made her dangerous is laughable. It was her ingenuity and force of will. Taylor is Kaiser Soze.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:51
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TOOT BOOT posted:Who was the twit they were trying to convince, and why? Dinah. She knows Taylor is alive because she can ask the question, Tattletale is trying to convince her that she's deluding herself. Tattletale knows she isn't deluding herself because her power lets her know that Taylor is alive and fills in details. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 06:52
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On the other hand she receives no great absolution, she is left to deal with the things she's done, and with the things she can no-longer do. Once again, Taylor has to deal with the consequences of her actions, and the actions of others the best she can. That's not exactly the salvation I deep down wished for, but it is a HELL of an appropriate ending for this work.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:53
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NecroMonster posted:On the other hand she receives no great absolution, she is left to deal with the things she's done, and with the things she can no-longer do. Once again, Taylor has to deal with the consequences of her actions, and the actions of others the best she can. That's not exactly the salvation I deep down wished for, but it is a HELL of an appropriate ending for this work. It fits, I stand by the world and story not being so downbeat that Taylor had to die like that, but I never had any illusions that she would have it anything like easy.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:54
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I honestly didn't either, and didn't think it appropriate, but I did sort of hope.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:55
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NecroMonster posted:I honestly didn't either, and didn't think it appropriate, but I did sort of hope. Well, there's always a potential sequel. I wouldn't really be interested in reading a Worm story without Taylor as the focus. She is, by a wide margin, the most interesting thing in that universe.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:57
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Skippy McPants posted:Well, there's always a potential sequel. I wouldn't really be interested in reading a Worm story without Taylor as the focus. She is, by a wide margin, the most interesting thing in that universe. I wouldn't say that, I was fascinated by a lot of the more minor characters.
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Nov 19, 2013 06:58
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TOOT BOOT posted:I wouldn't say that, I was fascinated by a lot of the more minor characters. I didn't say she was the only interesting thing, just the most interesting thing. If there's going to be another 5-10 novel long serial there isn't another character I'm even remotely so invested in that I'd want to see that much of them. Edit: Also kinda weird to see Taylor used as a perspective character without it being first person.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:01
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That was a good ending. I'm not convinced that Taylor isn't going to come back in the sequel though. I think Teacher will be the one trying to bring her back though to try to fulfill his grand plan. In terms of Wildbow's next work, I'm interested in Pact maybe, though I'll give anything a try.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:05
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TOOT BOOT posted:I wouldn't say that, I was fascinated by a lot of the more minor characters. I'm sort of conflicted here. I basically loved every character in this story, or loved to hate a few of them instead, and thus have nothing but confidence in Wildbow's ability to write characters, but I do feel like it'd be hard to do the same sort of story as Worm, something that hits the dual points of morality and consequence so very well, without Taylor. Any attempt might simply come off as a knock off of Taylor even if he did try. On the other hand Wildbow has said he doesn't plan to do something with exactly the same themes anyway, and agrees that it'd be hard to do the same sort of justice with someone who wasn't basically Taylor, though he has said anything he writes is going to end up being fairly morally gray.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:07
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NecroMonster posted:On the other hand she receives no great absolution, she is left to deal with the things she's done, and with the things she can no-longer do. Once again, Taylor has to deal with the consequences of her actions, and the actions of others the best she can. That's not exactly the salvation I deep down wished for, but it is a HELL of an appropriate ending for this work. I imagine the worst part is that after relying on her powers for so long, it's like being half blind, not being able to rely on insects to feel out her surroundings for her.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:12
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Mr. Fowl posted:I imagine the worst part is that after relying on her powers for so long, it's like being half blind, not being able to rely on insects to feel out her surroundings for her. The worst part will be still having the drive to protect and save people, and being basically incapable of doing just that.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:16
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I liked the ending overall. My feelings generally seem to coincide with Skippy's and I felt like it was pretty much the best case scenario for Taylor without being too Hollywood saccharine. As far as sequels go, I wouldn't mind revisiting the universe in the future, but would prefer something set pretty far in the future that either doesn't include any original cast members, or only has them as more minor roles. I am pretty interested for the prequels we're going to be getting, specifically Wildbow's takes on fantasy and biopunk.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:17
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I sort of feel like losing her powers is her chance to just live her own life and stop having to sacrifice everything for everyone. It's the only way she can have any sort of happy ending; she'd just start all over again if she could. I mean, at what point in the story would you say she was truly happy? There were happy moments, but it was just one crisis after another, struggling to protect people, and fighting with her own sense of right and wrong while being poo poo on by the universe. Here, she can finally go back and establish her relationship with her dad and just live a normal life. She'll probably end up in some sort of self-sacrificing career, but it'll be rewarding in a way that her previous life wasn't. Feels really weird that this is over, though. I've only been reading for half a year or so (less than that), but the story was a really important part of my week. I ran through something like 25 chapters in a week and a half during a really lovely depressing period in my life and it gave me something to focus on and to escape from my poo poo with, so it really helped, and I'm really glad someone (multiple people) posted the link in the Dresden Files thread.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:24
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Yes, something in a similar theme would be hard to do after Taylor's (really long) story. Skippy McPants posted:I didn't say she was the only interesting thing, just the most interesting thing. If there's going to be another 5-10 novel long serial there isn't another character I'm even remotely so invested in that I'd want to see that much of them. Taylor is the most interesting. But for like a novella, hey, I wouldn't mind reading about Plan Kick Teacher in the Balls and Down the Shaft (Hopefully Without Looking Like Assholes). Ahahaha. Tattletale is my second favorite character after Taylor so...
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Nov 19, 2013 07:24
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Skippy McPants posted:Dinah. She knows Taylor is alive because she can ask the question, Tattletale is trying to convince her that she's deluding herself. I think Tattletale is trying to prevent Dinah from asking the right questions. Dinah only gets the information that she reaches for, she is kind of like Contessa in that you have to apply the power correctly otherwise it won't work very well.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:31
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So it looks like everything is set up to kick Teacher in the balls, only nobody wants to be the first nutcracker because it'd be a bad precedent.OneTwentySix posted:I sort of feel like losing her powers is her chance to just live her own life and stop having to sacrifice everything for everyone. It's the only way she can have any sort of happy ending; she'd just start all over again if she could. I mean, at what point in the story would you say she was truly happy? There were happy moments, but it was just one crisis after another, struggling to protect people, and fighting with her own sense of right and wrong while being poo poo on by the universe. Here, she can finally go back and establish her relationship with her dad and just live a normal life. She'll probably end up in some sort of self-sacrificing career, but it'll be rewarding in a way that her previous life wasn't. Taylor being Taylor, if she had powers, she would act. The only way for her to find peace is to be unable to battle. She has to actually live, not just surf from one disaster to another. The hardest part of returning to normalcy is that she's never had normal since her mother died. EDIT: Also drat, I feel bad for Grue. And I finally realize what Taylor was specifically not thinking about during the final battle. She's so damned good at deluding herself that she's convinced it was about her father being dead rather than Grue. veekie fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 07:39
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Oh man, that was fantastic. That said, I am actually mildly disappointed that Teacher never got drilled in the forehead, because goddamn would that have been cathartic. Still, that was probably the best possible way Wildbow could have ended the series. As far as his next work goes, my interest based solely on the genres is probably Pact=Body>Face=Peer. Looking forward to any of them though.
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Nov 19, 2013 07:55
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Did anyone else think that the Alec doppelganger was going to be one of the Heartbroken? Operation "Kick Teacher in the Balls" had been a success, and the Undersider girlsquad was there to track Taylor down? Also, the revelation about Brian changes a few things. It's pretty sad to think about Aisha following Taylor around, acting as a soothing voice out of nowhere, so soon after her brother was killed. Taylor insisted that he come to the oil platform. He was going to walk away, but that bad call got him killed. Come to think of it, Aisha was there watching over Taylor when she came to after the oil platform. She seems to have no hard feelings about Brian at all. I loved this story, and I'm impatiently waiting for it to go up for sale. Edit: Yes, I know that he's planning to spend years editing it first.
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Nov 19, 2013 08:04
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Lord_Pigeonbane posted:Also, the revelation about Brian changes a few things. It's pretty sad to think about Aisha following Taylor around, acting as a soothing voice out of nowhere, so soon after her brother was killed. Taylor insisted that he come to the oil platform. He was going to walk away, but that bad call got him killed.
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Nov 19, 2013 08:11
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