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Massed Chariots or Minotaurs would probably work better, for that reason. But you can't get them as indies. It's actually really surprising that there are no chariot indies.
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Nov 18, 2013 23:06
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Chariots are made out of paper and minotaurs move at a glacial pace. Maybe an E9W9 Dagon/Bull?
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Nov 18, 2013 23:19
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amuayse posted:Chariots are made out of paper and minotaurs move at a glacial pace. Maybe an E9W9 Dagon/Bull? Just use shortbows! They're as cheap as flags and no sacred limit.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:00
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builds character posted:Just use shortbows! They're as cheap as flags and no sacred limit. Yeah do this. B9 is +4 str on top of the BV and the things you would expect to see BV on (Jaguars and Flagellants) fit 3 a square and have big weapons and or mulitattack. A surrounded trample pretender isn't going to survive.
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Nov 19, 2013 00:04
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I know about bows being the early counter as of now, but I need to know if there is a way to get melee troops or mages since arrows aren't really that hard to counter and the AI's targetting is stupid. Skrimish formation+buffs and such. Would it be possible to buff your non-sacred troops to become really good early on?
amuayse fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 00:43
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amuayse posted:I know about bows being the early counter as of now, but I need to know if there is a way to get melee troops or mages since arrows aren't really that hard to counter and the AI's targetting is stupid. Skrimish formation+buffs and such. Would it be possible to buff your non-sacred troops to become really good early on? There are two or maybe two and a half types of things that are given B9 at the moment. 1) F/D9B9 Jags or W9B9 Palankasha type units, where they will straight up destroy whatever you put in front of them unless you can kill them or the thing leading them on the way in. Esp. true in the case of Jaguars; Chaos Power has still hosed Lanka maybe forever because it ruins their expansion. 2) poo poo that's there to force you to make a billion checks like Flaggelants, where having your guys get into a fistfight is no more advantageous than shooting them. 2.5) Gimmicky crap like N9B9 (it's so pro!) Ancient Ones, which are a fantastically expensive way to maybe kill a few glaive/battleaxe/etc. infantry while gutting scales, more broadly useful paths, etc. etc.
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Nov 19, 2013 01:01
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jBrereton posted:1) F/D9B9 Jags or W9B9 Palankasha type units, where they will straight up destroy whatever you put in front of them unless you can kill them or the thing leading them on the way in. Esp. true in the case of Jaguars; Chaos Power has still hosed Lanka maybe forever because it ruins their expansion. Their monkey sacred, which is very similar to the Palankasha, does not have chaos power to gently caress them over.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:21
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Their monkey sacred, which is very similar to the Palankasha, does not have chaos power to gently caress them over.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:23
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Their monkey sacred, which is very similar to the Palankasha, does not have chaos power to gently caress them over. jBrereton posted:Basically no. 3. Regenerating SC disciples in a disciple game? But for normal play, B9 is surprisingly weak on everything but Jags, where the tri-bless has obliterated any and all other possible Mictlan builds. Also, I think the problem with Lanka is not so much chaos power as pillage being a useless and self-harming action 99% of the time. It would be way more interesting if pillaging allowed something like 2x regular province income after unrest penalties at the cost of 2-5% of the population and a big unrest boost. As it stands now, pillaging is good for MA Ermor/spiteful players about to lose and that's about it.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:36
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B9 on cheap sacreds set to guard commander is a pretty good middle finger to evo heavy nations with poo poo troops like Caelum, Abyssia, and Atlantis in the mid game.
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Nov 19, 2013 02:40
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So I just tried my first experiment with blood communions, and it resulted in everyone dying without accomplishing anything. I had two masters and four slaves, but neither master received any path boosts. What went wrong? One of the slaves cast blood slave a turn later than everyone else, could that have effected things?
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Nov 19, 2013 02:47
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Smerdyakov posted:Also, I think the problem with Lanka is not so much chaos power as... O3 remains hugely prevalent in EA, and is very helpful on Lanka to keep a steady supply of mages going. Remote unrest spells don't start being usable en-masse until way, way after the early game, which means you have to work around fighting with underwhelming demonic troops or just bad normal troops (other than Atavi archers, which remain good at their thing, I guess). If you get to your first fight on an enemy capital, that battle is very likely to be against zero unrest and O3 scales, meaning -3 to str/att/def etc., and since you can't pillage a province you're sieging, you're lucky to get to -2 via unrest at best by the time you break the defences down. The main victim of this is really Yomi, though, who straight up cannot afford to do almost anything without O3, and who have Chaos Power'd demons everywhere, other than their Bandits which cost quite a lot of res (Chaosrec doesn't really cut it). The problem isn't pillaging, it's that two of the most gold-intensive factions were given stat nerfs for needing large amounts of very steady money. Now if they changed Chaos Power from Order/Turmoil to Production/Sloth ("The demons go and do pretty metal stuff if nobody lifts a finger to stop them, +/- stats!"), it would fit the factions' natural scales much better, and could in fact mean that you wouldn't have to assume -3 to stats all the time, unrest notwithstanding.
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Nov 19, 2013 03:07
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In Yomi's case it would be downright thematic, Oni are notoriously lazy. There's even a saying ("an Oni with an iron club") that could be taken to show how their laziness is the one thing that stops them from being invincible.
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 03:10
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Squalid posted:So I just tried my first experiment with blood communions, and it resulted in everyone dying without accomplishing anything. I had two masters and four slaves, but neither master received any path boosts. What went wrong? One of the slaves cast blood slave a turn later than everyone else, could that have effected things? You forgot to cast reinvigoration with a master after building the communion. Blood spells create a fuckton of fatigue and even setting up the communion is going to knock out your B1 slaves. A single cast of reinvigoration will wipe out fatigue on every slave after the setup due to how communions work (all spells with target:caster also affect all the slaves). Just figure out about how much fatigue generation you expect per turn after that and script reinvigorates appropriately and you should be fine. You will get +n path boosts per 2^n number of slaves. And yes having that slave wait a turn meant that on the first round there were only 3 slaves which grants a grand total of +1 temporary paths. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 04:31
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In addition, the communion path boost on the masters is not listed in their stats even when the communion is in effect. And in dom4, reverse communions have been removed from the game, so you'd need to cast Reinvigoration with both masters in order to put them to use. If this was dom3, then it sounds like a scripting snafu.Squalid posted:So I just tried my first experiment with blood communions, and it resulted in everyone dying without accomplishing anything. I had two masters and four slaves, but neither master received any path boosts. What went wrong? One of the slaves cast blood slave a turn later than everyone else, could that have effected things? TheDemon fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 04:43
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Have scout prophets fallen out of favor? It seems like most people in olmgame picked their starting commander as their prophet.
The Lord of Hats fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 09:50
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The Lord of Hats posted:Have scout prophets fallen out of favor? It seems like most people in ok game picked their starting commander as their prophet. Scouting information is very valuable and with the removal of patrol and overtax theres nothing for your starter commander to do otherwise, prophetising the commander gets you a potentially better chassis for the H3 in terms of survivability and lets you use that initial scout to get a more exact picture of your cap circle indie strength as well as scout out your neighbours quicker and so on.
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Nov 19, 2013 09:55
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I just noticed in TestPantheon that Abysia has gone AI, turns take absolutely forever to happen and ive run out of things to actually do, all thats left is script a doomstack of mages for Ulms demon/undead stack eventual assault on my cap. I feel like we should just call this one and declare team Ctis/Utgard/Bogarus as the victors.
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Nov 19, 2013 15:06
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I picked up Dom4 and have been messing around in SP to get the hang of it (never played Dom3). I feel like I've gotten a good grasp on expansion and taking on the first AI opponents I run into, but I really have no idea what I should be doing as the game transitions into mid/end game. As an example, I'm playing my current game as EA Helheim. Took an imprisoned pretender for a good bless and then used dual bless (I think W9S9) Helhirdings to roll up everything around me. They've been pretty much unstoppable, taking out every independent around me as well as most of Mictlan and Berytos while taking a total of 3 losses (that's 3 Helhirdings lost, I didn't lose any battles). Now I'm not sure what to do. If I want to continue my offensive against Berytos and Mictlan I'm going to be sieging fortresses and fighting pretenders (one Monolith and one Mictlan particular that I don't remember). Another nation (maybe Ermor) also has its pretender out wandering around. I'm really not sure how to approach this. In terms of winning, I'm pretty sure I could just sweep up all of the thrones, but that doesn't seem like it will teach me any good MP habits/strategies. So, some questions. If I'm running a nation based around quick expansion by strong blessed troops, what should I be doing to take on pretenders and siege fortresses. More of the same? Something else that's strong and blessed? What should my research goals be, are there certain spells I should be trying to get to because they'll help me out in the end game? Are there certain spells that my nation would benefit from while it's expanding or in the mid game? When it comes to the early game, you have a lot of choices, but you can just redo the start over and over until you figure out strategies that work. End game you still have all the choices (more really), but you have to start working toward them on turn one, and don't see a return forever, which leaves me at a loss to figure out what I should be going for.
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Nov 19, 2013 17:16
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I don't know what your current research is, but Helheim has very good A/D magic, and very good forging/sitesearching paths on their svaltarf. Your endgame should be small teams of thugs wearing good equipment. Focus on getting 6 in Alt, Const & Conj. If you had N on your pretender, you could probably hope to pick up Tartarians. As it is, you're better off with just cloud-trapezing mistformed hangadrotts and flying banes lords. Either mass huge numbers of cheap troops, or use Wall Shakers & Gate Cleavers to break open the forts. You can also try to Air Evo your way to victory, but your non-cap mages are very expensive for only A2. Similarly, the D-random Hangadrotts can skelespam, if you need them to. Speleothing fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 17:45
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Right, your nation here is a nation of ponymans. Start giving your Hangadrotts good equipment (vine/eye shields, fire/water brand, one or two reinvig. misc. items should be good) and they can take down most anything. Kit out a few of them with two-handed weapons to take down pretenders if needed. You can either mass cheap troops or use the above-mentioned items to crack forts. If pretenders give you a lot of trouble, try casting a lot of lightning spells at them. Those deal a lot of fatigue damage alongside the normal damage. A fatigued pretender is easier to hit, and will be hit harder by your guys.
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Nov 19, 2013 18:08
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Alteration and Construction are the way to go. I suggest cranking out owl quills because your guys are pretty crap researchers.
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Nov 19, 2013 18:23
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I am unsure going construction first on any nation works.
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Nov 19, 2013 20:19
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I'd always go Alt-3 first to get Mistform on your Vanjarlar. Then see how you feel. A little Evo (two points) is going to make your PD significantly harder to crack, and if you go further down the Evo tree, you get Mist and eventually Storm to help protect yourself from ranged troops. All good stuff. Ench is useful later for Cloud Trapeze and possible Skellyspam using Hangadrottar. Conjuration is useful if you're expecting a siege battle, because (Lesser) Air Elementals are ethereal, meaning they go straight through walls. If you're fighting a bunch of mages inside a fort with little support, ending a battle very quickly is extra important, and Air Elementals one of the best ways early on. As always, there are plenty of options. Not super keen on Construction for a nation with such good sacred troops. Work around supporting them first, then think about quills and poo poo like that after. For what it's worth, xHeim nations are never exactly terrible at research, just slightly more expensive than usual. They also have the massive upside of every single one of their research mages being exceptional in combat. I wouldn't pass up a chance to take thrones early, by the way. Learning to pull the trigger when you're ahead is a very useful skill, too. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Nov 19, 2013 |
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Nov 19, 2013 20:27
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Not Const first, no. But he's asking about endgame. Early game, Alt3 first, then Ench 3 & Evo 2. Then const 4. Your midgame thugging needs const 4, and you should plan on getting 6 by endgame.
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Nov 19, 2013 21:36
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Incy posted:I am unsure going construction first on any nation works. EA Mictlan going for SDR then blood?
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Nov 19, 2013 23:54
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LordLeckie posted:I just noticed in TestPantheon that Abysia has gone AI, turns take absolutely forever to happen and ive run out of things to actually do, all thats left is script a doomstack of mages for Ulms demon/undead stack eventual assault on my cap. I feel like we should just call this one and declare team Ctis/Utgard/Bogarus as the victors. Oh, I haven't played the last 3 turns and probably didn't get around to scripting monthly casts at the lab I built in front of your capital. Game's dead, put it out of its misery already.
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Nov 19, 2013 23:57
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builds character posted:EA Mictlan going for SDR then blood? I prefer that. They generally don't need early spells/summons, and hunting without SDR feels like a huge waste of research and income.
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Nov 20, 2013 02:07
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Any tips for LA Atlantis in Dom4?
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Nov 20, 2013 03:06
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The Lord of Hats posted:Have scout prophets fallen out of favor? It seems like most people in olmgame picked their starting commander as their prophet. The reason scout prophets have fallen out of favor is you no longer patrol-overtax turn 1, so your commander has nothing else to do. Therefore you can send your scout out scouting and still have a smitebot for the army you send out turn 2. It also helps that commanders generally have better stats than scouts. Personally my turn 1 play is: commander prophet scout ATTACK a neighboring prov on retreat orders
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Nov 20, 2013 03:21
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dis astranagant posted:Oh, I haven't played the last 3 turns and probably didn't get around to scripting monthly casts at the lab I built in front of your capital. Game's dead, put it out of its misery already. Yeah im gonna ask around and then get it taken down. GG.
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Nov 20, 2013 03:53
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LordLeckie posted:Yeah im gonna ask around and then get it taken down. GG. I'm still taking turns, but there's no way I'm going to win this one, so I'm happy to admit defeat.
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Nov 20, 2013 15:18
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-Troika- posted:Any tips for LA Atlantis in Dom4? I'm playing LA Atlantis in Violin, but I don't know how valuable my advice may be, since the only real battle I've fought so far(not counting indeps), I only won through weight of numbers, and suffered significantly higher losses, gold-wise. I'll share what I've gleaned so far: General: Atlantis has okay line troops and a fairly wide range of magic. Your cap mages only have water and death, with the odd air or earth level, and land forts can only make the lackluster W1D1H1 Tungaliks. Under the sea, however, you can make Forgiving Fathers, with W2S1 FWES1, which widens your range a bit. You still have no Nature and no Blood, and your Air, Fire, and Earth is too low to boost, but you've got the Astral for communions, so you can get most of the big battle spells, even if you can't reach the big rituals. Earth FFs can make Crystal Matrices if you want to plug in your W3D2 AWED1.1 Angakoks to your communions. Your line troops are cold resistant and have 50% darkvision, so you can cast Grip of Winter(Ench 6) and Darkness(Alt 6) to skew the odds in your favour, and you can cast cold-damage AoE spells with impunity, which is just as well since your Angakoks are all near-sighted. Pretender Design: I keep hearing people mention Arssartuts when talking about this nation, but I don't see their merit. Their bone glaives apparently deal an strength damage, but I don't know how effective that is in practice. Besides, they are cap-only, so I advise against a bless strategy. I went with a white dragon for early expansion, but you could pick someone to fill up the gaps in your magic paths, which aren't many. E2 for Earth Boots and hammers may be a good idea. Max your cold scale for an extra 40 points and get the most out of your dudes' Ice Protection. Bump up Production if you can, since your guys are fairly resource-intensive. The troops are sturdy enough to handle most indie provinces fairly well, so you could probably take a sleeping or imprisoned pretender for better scales. Strategy: I'm not really good at overarching strategies: I mostly just go for whatever thing is shiniest at the moment. You are basically an underwater nation that starts on land, so you should get back in the water and make a fort ASAP to get your Forgiving Fathers rolling out. I can't say much about research. All the good stuff for you is at level 5(Evo: Falling Frost, Shadow Blast; Ench: Horde of Skeletons) or 6(Alt: Darkness; Constr: Water Bracelent, Skull Mentor; Ench: Grip of Winter), with very little before that. I beelined for Evo 5 for Shadow Blast, but Ench 5 may be more to your liking if you like skellyspamming, something I've never gotten the hang of. EDIT: Underwater, you get cool new line troops as well. I've been making Unsleepings because they look pretty swole, but on second thought, I realize they cost four times the amount that regular Atlantian Infantry does, and I'm thinking that's not a good tradeoff. So Atlantian Infantry is probably the way to go. Unless you just bring down Ice Guards from the surface. I'm still mostly a newbie at this game(though if TestPantheon is called, I'll have a 100% win ratio :P), so take everything with a grain of salt. Werewhale fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 16:09
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nomadotto posted:I'm still taking turns, but there's no way I'm going to win this one, so I'm happy to admit defeat. It doesnt help that the interface for the game is broken, it doesnt appear in my active games and it doesnt show if ive taken my turn or not, i noticed the timer had gone back to full not long ago checked in and i apparently had staled a turn without even noticing so yeah all we need now is Pan, Bogarus/Ctis/Utgard/Midgard to agree and we're good to take it down.
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Nov 20, 2013 16:28
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Stygian Rains is a pretty fun spell for LA Atlantis.
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Nov 20, 2013 16:43
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TheDemon posted:Personally my turn 1 play is: I do this myself all the time, too, and usually go for Forests, just because they tend to be the best neighbouring provinces (sometimes decent pop, usually very good resources) but with the most variably pain-in-the-arse indies.
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Nov 20, 2013 17:42
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TheDemon posted:The reason scout prophets have fallen out of favor is you no longer patrol-overtax turn 1, so your commander has nothing else to do. Therefore you can send your scout out scouting and still have a smitebot for the army you send out turn 2. It also helps that commanders generally have better stats than scouts. Why attack a neighboring province on retreat orders instead of just sneaking? Honest question, I'm a rank newbie and have no idea what difference this makes or why one is better than the other.
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Nov 20, 2013 18:21
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Not My Leg posted:Why attack a neighboring province on retreat orders instead of just sneaking? Honest question, I'm a rank newbie and have no idea what difference this makes or why one is better than the other. Probably more accurate Intel. Regular scouting information can leave out some big details. You can run into surprise elephants, surprise undead cavalry, and surprise mages who will slaughter your troops. If you attack you see exactly what that province has. I believe scouting information only shows the 3 most populous troops there. The thing is, if there are 10 militia, 10 light infantry, 10 archers, and 9 elephants it won't mention the elephants in the scouting report, but they will gently caress up your starting army and whatever you recruit on turn 1. Khisanth Magus fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 18:27
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Not My Leg posted:Why attack a neighboring province on retreat orders instead of just sneaking? Honest question, I'm a rank newbie and have no idea what difference this makes or why one is better than the other. The one downside is that it slows down your scouting outside of your cap circle by two turns. But if you're good at talking to people in-game or on IRC or whatever, you can often get at least some idea of where other players are in the world that way, and having a leg up on knowing if one of your provinces is more or less safe to take with your starting party plus a turn of recruitment is a fairly big deal. Forests are an especially good target for this, because the indies in them vary from trash (Woodsmen in Dom 4, Lion Tribe, or Atavi) to OK (barbarians, most x Tribes) to sometimes rough (Woodsmen plus multiple Dark Vines as blockers and 4+ Bloodhenge Druids, who can easily ruin anything with lowish morale that gets held up with Agony). The difference in how difficult 1 or 2 Dark Vines is compared to 4 or 5 is pretty big, and your base scouting report is likely to be inaccurate, although large units almost always show up.
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Nov 20, 2013 18:43
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Werewhale posted:I'm playing LA Atlantis in Violin, but I don't know how valuable my advice may be, since the only real battle I've fought so far(not counting indeps), I only won through weight of numbers, and suffered significantly higher losses, gold-wise. I'll share what I've gleaned so far: Much of the guides from Dom3 are still good sources of inspiration. LA Atlantis hasn't been changed much aside from repel mechanics, sailing changes, slow to recruit, etc. Regarding getting started underwater, if you have a lot of uncontested Sea (not Deep Sea) provinces, it can be worth taking an independent nature mage/shaman (N1 is sufficent), crafting a simple water-breathing item, and have them go site searching for kelp fortresses since castles cost so much in the Late Era. Unfortunately, indep nature mages are a lot rarer in LA than my favored EA. Regarding Arssartuts, they are good units even without a bless. The key factor is the 23 gold, 10 resources, on a very solid chassis of 16 health, 13 protection 13 attack, and 22 magical damage, with a relatively low 4 encumbrance. They don't have any particular weaknesses so any bless you can afford will just make them that much better. And with their low costs, you can afford to be building on any set of scales at any point in the game. A small earth bless would drop them to 2 encumbrance, a small death bless can add 5 health to a unit that is already effective and easy to replace, while a small water bless gives them that extra little oomph against independents. They're not gamechangers like giants or jaguars, but they have an extremely low opportunity cost to field. Unsleeping consorts can also make use of your bless, but they're a lot less attractive even if you just happen to find/steal a fort during an underwater war. They are very worth working a strong set of minor blesses into your existing plan, less so building an entire bless strategy around. It is unfortunately a bit hard to recommend a level 9+ bless over an awake supercombatant, but if you're starting with a dormant pretender (one of the poorly equipped titans, perhaps) the Arssartuts can make good use of most blesses. Unfortunately, their gem income doesn't support too many strategies. I'm very unimpressed with water globals, and 1 death gem makes it difficult to leverage some of the great death spells like Burden of Time. Deep Sea provinces count for darkness, which can give you a small amount of leverage against indie merfolk. Don't underestimate Tungaliks. They can do quite a bit when your Angakoks are out elsewhere. Conjuration: Water Power doesn't require any gems, and is only Conjuration 2, W1, albeit underwater only. Spirit Curse can help stunt any first year supercombatants, with the backing of some high damage magic glaives. Ghost Grip at Thaum 5 requires only D1, has a precision bonus, and can hit five 'persons' for 25 stun damage. Great support if you're going the Grip of Winter route. Alteration: Frozen Heart has 100 precision and great range at only 20 fatigue. With the sheer number of Tungaliks you'll have lying around at home, this can add up. Thaum: Dust to Dust is a powerful anti-undead spell, if you're dealing with the stronger undead. Frighten is certainly weak, but accessible and spammable early on. Odds and Ends: Twiceborn is great for getting a second chance out of your Angakok's but a bit difficult to afford, and comes with a good chance of crippling afflictions, and being useless outside of dominion. Thaum six has cleansing water, an extremely effective spell for taking on undead chaff. It isn't much stronger than a simple banishment, but it doesn't check MR. Tungaliks are no good to build a strategy around but properly scripted they're great support for the few Angakoks that aren't out sailing around and harassing the enemy. LordSloth fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Nov 20, 2013 |
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Nov 20, 2013 20:07
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