|
There's no way the next generation is going to see a 50% bump in range. That would require stunning amounts of breakthroughs on storage capacity or the fabrication of batteries with similar energy density at half the weight. Battery tech has been on a pretty linear scale over the years, and that sort of jump would be an unprecedented change. The 2016 models are being engineered right now with 2013 technology, and if we see better than a 15% increase, I'd be surprised. That "72 miles" will maaaaybe hit 82 standard in 2016. The only way you get more range is to cram more batteries in there like the Tesla, and that drives the price up drastically. We should be hoping for cheaper manufacturing processes than greater energy density in the short term, so that economy cars can afford to stuff 36kWh or so in there and still remain affordable.
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 18:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 13:32 |
|
|
Mortanis posted:The only way you get more range is to cram more batteries in there like the Tesla, and that drives the price up drastically. We should be hoping for cheaper manufacturing processes than greater energy density in the short term, so that economy cars can afford to stuff 36kWh or so in there and still remain affordable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 18:33
|
|
|
Advent Horizon posted:Average American commute is, what, 35 minutes? Even assuming most of that is highway a Leaf would do the round-trip fine. How far do you drive? My round trip is 90 miles round trip so my commute is right on the cusp of most EV range, so a year or two (maybe more) after brand new when the battery doesn't charge nearly as well as it did when it's brand new, I wouldn't get all the way home. I'm sure everyone also has the same gripe with EV, but with ads like the Leaf saying "129/102 city/hwy MPGe" then going on to say "With an average range of 73 miles", well.. The MPGe numbers are just bullshit to begin with. They need to stop the equivalent marketing bullshit and just give actual numbers for highway and city range. keykey fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Nov 20, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 20:11
|
|
|
roomforthetuna posted:Or much faster charging and a really good network of charging points. (or Tesla-plan-style super-fast battery-switch-out docks.) Don't really need more range if it just takes a one minute stop every 60 or so miles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 23:17
|
|
|
grover posted:For long distance driving, the convenience point will be at least 200 miles range. I don't want to have to make a stop every 60 miles, no matter how brief. I don't see batteries EVER getting to the same level as gasoline, in terms of charge speed versus filling a fuel tank. Range, possibly, but charge speed, no.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 23:21
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:I don't see batteries EVER getting to the same level as gasoline, in terms of charge speed versus filling a fuel tank. Range, possibly, but charge speed, no. Battery swapping doesn't count?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 23:23
|
|
|
Mathhole posted:Battery swapping doesn't count? That would count, yes, but I don't see that ever becoming a thing, either, for entirely different reasons.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2013 23:25
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:That would count, yes, but I don't see that ever becoming a thing, either, for entirely different reasons. Tesla is doing this, though. http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap I heard it's supposed to cost about $300k-500k to add battery swap capability to an existing supercharger station, so it might only be at select few locations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 00:07
|
|
|
There's always this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25023673 I've been hearing about fuel cell stuff forever, though last I really paid attention to it, I thought most companies were abandoning it because Hydrogen just wasn't that great as a storage medium. Effectively, it took too much energy to make Hydrogen for use in cells, so you didn't get enough bang for your buck without finding some revolutionary process that made it as a byproduct. Gasoline is great because the energy was stored previously and we just have to refine it - Hydrogen has to be created, which takes energy, seriously reducing the net. I'm not sure if that's changed, or if this car doesn't take it into account. It's still being marketed as "Zero Emission", though technically fuel cell cars exhaust water, so I hope it's still good to talk about in this thread. Without knowing the cost of a fill up, it's all worthless. There's already huge issues with getting an electric fueling infrastructure in place; I can't imagine trying to also roll out a hydrogen fuel-cell system in tandem. Still, 300 miles on a "charge" that's faster than an EV to fill up is a good start if the price is right.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 00:16
|
|
|
Mathhole posted:Tesla is doing this, though. The technical ability to do a thing is not in any way related to the economic viability of that thing. To make the battery-swap scheme work, you'd essentially need most of the gas stations in the US to install the required infrastructure, and to hold two or three (or more, in very densely populated areas, with lots of Teslas) batteries in stock at all times, if you wanted 100% availability of charged batteries. Its a loving SPLENDID plan if you're Tesla, or Tesla's subcontractors, making batteries, but it just isn't realistic. Then, you still run into the issue of trip planning. What happens if you get to your planned battery-swap out in podunk, nowhere, and some other guy in a Tesla just drove away with that stations only swap battery? Even assuming the battery station charges via the same method as Tesla's Superchargers, you get to wait an hour and fifteen minutes before you can resume your trip. This doesn't begin to get into the issue of Tesla battery swapping being specific to Tesla cars. I don't see anyone besides Tesla dealers installing the required equipment. I hope Tesla changes the automotive world, but I'm not holding my breath.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 00:22
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:To make the battery-swap scheme work, you'd essentially need most of the gas stations in the US to install the required infrastructure I didn't realize you also wanted charge/swap stations to be as plentiful as gas stations. That's certainly hard. It's also fairly ridiculous with proprietary technology. However, I think it's completely unnecessary because the only times you need fast recharge are when you're driving continuously for more than 200 miles. Otherwise you just plug in at the end of your driving. Longer trips (at least in the US) can be expected to take place on relatively few interstates, so you can cover all the important road-trip roads with relatively few stations.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 00:32
|
|
|
Mathhole posted:I didn't realize you also wanted charge/swap stations to be as plentiful as gas stations. That's certainly hard. It's also fairly ridiculous with proprietary technology. Of course you wouldn't need them at EVERY station, but to be convenient enough to make an impact, you would certainly need more than just a handful. Tesla's own website shows nation-wide range coverage of the continental US by the end of 2014, using a relative few supercharging stations. With that format, yes, you can drive the thing almost anywhere, but it's still far from being as convenient as a fossil fueled car. I don't even think that's a drawback though. I just feel that efforts need to be made to introduce electric cars as a different sort of transportation, rather than pushing for a one-for-one replacement of ICE vehicles. For instance, what is the custom when you visit a friend with your electric car? Is it rude to ask to plug in? Is it rude to deny someone else plugging in at your home or place of business? What are the rules for public charging stations, particularly in residential parking garages?
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 02:59
|
|
|
MrYenko posted:The technical ability to do a thing is not in any way related to the economic viability of that thing. To make the battery-swap scheme work, you'd essentially need most of the gas stations in the US to install the required infrastructure, and to hold two or three (or more, in very densely populated areas, with lots of Teslas) batteries in stock at all times, if you wanted 100% availability of charged batteries. Its a loving SPLENDID plan if you're Tesla, or Tesla's subcontractors, making batteries, but it just isn't realistic. Also those batteries are mega expensive and probably aren't getting that much cheaper anytime soon. It's bad enough getting people to return kegs and LP containers. Imagine when you have to stock not just one but several $12k batteries with limited shelf/service lives and trusting people not to gently caress things up or scam while swapping them around and taking them home.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 03:11
|
|
|
The main issue with battery swapping is IMO the compatibility -- maybe the Model S and X could share the batteries, but a cheaper/smaller Tesla or the new roadster would probably need different batteries. And then there are other manufacturers...
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 11:25
|
|
|
Not to mention battery life is finite with respect to years and number of charges, and a battery swap scheme requires whomever is doing the battery swapping to heavily subsidize the cost of battery replacement. And consumers to accept the risk that they might pull up to the station in their brand-new Tesla and roll away with a 10-year old battery with 1 charge remaining before death and a massive bill to replace. I'd expect a rather large % of the batteries exchanged there would be older/crappier, just from the bias of all the people who normally charge at home "trading up" at one of these places when their battery is near death.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 12:46
|
|
|
Tesla actually "solved" this by requiring you to pick up your original battery on the way back, otherwise you'd be charged the value differential. That could be calculated based on the number of charge cycles or its age, or just whatever they want. Of course, this creates another problem, namely that you have to drive back the same way to pick up your battery...
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2013 13:22
|
|
|
On a brighter note, a Leaf does just fine in over 12" of snow (thus far). The berm in front of my driveway, which has not set yet, is almost 3' high and I made it through. I have less confidence in my snowblower  Can somebody hurry up and make an electric 4 wheeler I could use to plow? I don't need range, I don't need to take it hunting, I just need a plow for my driveway. The duty cycle is terrible for a gas engine. Edit vvv My driveway is big enough I wouldn't have to hit the street. Big enough to need a plow, weird enough to not want to use a truck. I can do donuts in the Leaf in the driveway, though 
Advent Horizon fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Nov 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 02:43
|
|
|
I would feel obligated to take a four wheeler out for a sweet round the neighborhood drift fest after taking care of the driveway if I had a four wheeler with a plow. You know, just to make sure the engine gets up to operating temp, officer.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 03:12
|
|
|
Advent Horizon posted:Can somebody hurry up and make an electric 4 wheeler I could use to plow? I don't need range, I don't need to take it hunting, I just need a plow for my driveway. The duty cycle is terrible for a gas engine. There are these, though I don't know how well they work for plowing: http://www.ecoeatv.com/ http://www.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-utv/side-by-sides/ranger-ev-avalanche-gray/features http://www.evepic.com/off-road/
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 21:57
|
|
|
http://transporter.kinja.com/did-somebody-invent-a-long-range-ev-solution-20-years-a-1470740436 Author just discovers the idea of the two behind trailer for EV's, acts like no one's discussed it in the last 20 years.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2013 22:11
|
|
|
Coredump posted:http://transporter.kinja.com/did-somebody-invent-a-long-range-ev-solution-20-years-a-1470740436 Yeah that author is a little too enthusiastic, but this guy must be onto something. . .  02BMW350 posted:I'm by no means an engineer. But couldn't you hook up an alternator so that the belt would go around the alternator and around the axle? So essentially the faster the rear axle spins, it would spin an alternator and create more electricity? Better yet, put one on each axle end so you have 4 alternators recharging the onboard battery packs. Is that feasible?
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
Colonel Sanders posted:Yeah that author is a little too enthusiastic, but this guy must be onto something. . . What would work though, would be to put some bike pedals inside your EV so while you're driving you can be pedaling to help charge the battery. Include some extras for passengers too. Of course you'd have to move the gas and brake pedals onto the steering wheel to compensate for your feet being busy. With non-stop three very fit people pedaling for about 3 days you could get one full charge of a smaller Tesla battery, if the charging system is near-lossless!
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2013 22:55
|
|
|
roomforthetuna posted:He is by no means an engineer.
|
|
#
?
Nov 24, 2013 23:03
|
|
|
grover posted:The average ameteur bicyclists can put out about 1/4th horsepower; if they're fit, they can keep it up for an hour. Which is, unfortunately, about an order of magnitude shy of what you'd need to drive at highway speeds. (I mean, there's good reasons you can't travel 70mph on a bicycle, and an EV car has way more drag.) I'd hope it was obvious that I wasn't seriously making the suggestion, what with the last paragraph you quoted.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 04:12
|
|
|
I am by no means an engineer, but isnt a regenerative braking system (that would be on all the time) pretty much what that man was trying to suggest?
MattD1zzl3 fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Nov 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 16:07
|
|
|
MattD1zzl3 posted:I am by no means an engineer, but isnt a regenerative braking system (that would be on all the time) pretty much what that man was trying to suggest? They're suggesting a perpetual motion machine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 17:13
|
|
|
Cocoa Crispies posted:They're suggesting a perpetual motion machine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vxHkAQRQUQ
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 19:21
|
|
|
Cocoa Crispies posted:They're suggesting a perpetual motion machine. Sounds like it could work though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 20:48
|
|
|
Didn't former forums user EDGECRUSHER have some sort of zany perpetual motion machine idea he was being all snooty and secretive about?
|
|
#
?
Nov 25, 2013 22:34
|
|
|
Electric plow chat, There are plenty of lead acid powered S10s available used from utility companies. Perfect for a driveway. The batteries give you plenty of grip and momentum due to the obnoxious weight.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2013 00:45
|
|
|
In case anyone's interested, someone is tracking their trip up the east coast in a 85kWh Model S on this page, live. http://teslatrip.timdorr.com/ Just so people have an idea of how the car behaves, range-wise, with east coast winter conditions and highway driving. I've noticed they're doing 60mph most of the way and haven't had any range issues.
|
|
#
?
Nov 26, 2013 19:34
|
|
|
Ugh. Was in the right most freeway lane, keeping pace with traffic and a family in a broburban came up behind me flashing lights and blowing horn. Passed me with daddy driver screaming "get off the road" through the window and giving me the finger. That's the first time I've been raged for driving an EV.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2013 19:05
|
|
|
Goober Peas posted:Ugh. Sounds about right, I get raged at when people will let me into traffic only to then notice that I'm driving a Volt with an OFA decal on it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 27, 2013 19:08
|
|
|
Anti-direct-sales amendment attached to an unrelated bill in the Ohio legislature was stricken, though the dealers' associations will probably try again as a standalone bill. Related: test drives for state representatives!
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2013 01:07
|
|
|
Finally got our first correct power bill. Old vehicle: 1993 Mazda B2600i 4x4. $200 per month in gasoline. New vehicle: 2013 Nissan Leaf SV. $17.28 last month in electricity. I also drove about 50% more miles than normal due to my wife working overtime, so I essentially did the entire commute twice on those days. I will gladly take a $182.72 energy savings per month. When we bought the house a year ago I switched all the lightbulbs to compact fluorescents. The difference per month was more electricity than the car uses.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 04:03
|
|
|
How do you measure the electricity drawn by the charger? Do you have a meter for that outlet or something?
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 17:27
|
|
|
ijustam posted:How do you measure the electricity drawn by the charger? Do you have a meter for that outlet or something? Much like everything EV, it's likely speculation, magic numbers, and holistics. E: Typed over a word. Viggen fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 18:26
|
|
|
Or we have a second meter. I'm thinking I have a second meter and that's the number on the bill. Probably. I'll have to check the side of the house again when I get home. Seriously, WTF? If I broke it down to the penny I probably wasn't guessing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:28
|
|
|
Its not that I'm saying that you are lying, it's just that it seems to be as much hyperbole as it is inconceivable- especially in a cold environment. How the gently caress are you spending $200 in gas vs $20 in clean coal(tm) recharge technology. Because running the heater, defrosters, and keeping it floored is that much more advanced with the latest EV options? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. E: I own two unicorns. Only one of them is paid for by subsidies. Viggen fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Dec 18, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 13:32 |
|
|
West SAAB Story posted:Its not that I'm saying that you are lying, it's just that it seems to be as much hyperbole as it is inconceivable- especially in a cold environment. Yes, it is much more advanced that what you assume. And 40% of my power comes from a nuclear plant, thanks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 20:57
|
|
