|
Dissapointed Owl posted:RTwP doesn't exclude combat from being good. It does when everyone's case for having it so far is essentially "combat sucks or is too slow, so I like to make it go by as fast as possible so I don't have to do combat anymore". People are going into this already concluding that combat will loving suck. Let's assume for a moment that it might not. VVV - Hahaha. With poorly designed TB mechanics sure, you can kite more precisely, but what if it weren't poorly designed? What if you had a good spread of all kinds of enemies with all kinds of combat ranges? I might as well use your excuse/reason for what I did in BG2 against dragons when I cast Cloudkill offscreen so they would take damage but not register my attack. That never failed. Drifter fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Nov 22, 2013 |
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 01:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:02 |
|
|
John McCain posted:I've never really understood how TB is "more tactical" than RTwP. What do you think makes TB "more tactical"? It's more tactical in that it's a numbers game that can be gamed/broken far more easily usually. Crap like staying just enough spaces away so that something has no mathematical possiblity of getting to or hitting you. This can be akin to kiting in something with more realtime elements, excepts there no possibility of loving up because you weren't quick enough on the draw or didn't notice in time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 01:17
|
|
|
Drifter posted:don't you have to register separately? Or maybe go into your settings/account and verify something or other? I just registered following the link from the KS announcement. There's a section for linking emails and a note that you have to link in your KS email, but I registered using the same email I used for KS and if I try entering it again it says "that email is already linked to your account". There's a separate donations tab that says "no record of purchase or donation history". E: hang on, I am a complete retard, it was backed under my wife's account because she put up most of the money for it. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Nov 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 01:29
|
|
|
Wish you could have both RTwP and Turn based. Oh well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 02:05
|
|
|
Gyshall posted:Wish you could have both RTwP and Turn based. Oh well. Never wish for this, not ever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 07:05
|
|
|
Chairchucker posted:Never wish for this, not ever. ...but Arcanum had such wonderful combat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 07:16
|
|
|
Drifter posted:It does when everyone's case for having it so far is essentially "combat sucks or is too slow, so I like to make it go by as fast as possible so I don't have to do combat anymore". The main reason I prefer RTwP is that it can be turned into simultaneous-turn TB with a decent autopause system, but gives the option of continuous simultaneous combat to those of us who like it better. John McCain fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Nov 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 08:47
|
|
|
RTwP is fine for Torment I think. I'm looking for story and immersion/thoughtfulness here. WL2 and P:E will cover the tactical itch.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 08:51
|
|
|
Project Eternity is definitely going to be RTwP, not turn-based, so if you think "turn based == tactical" then you're in for an unpleasant surprise.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 08:58
|
|
|
John McCain posted:Project Eternity is definitely going to be RTwP, not turn-based, so if you think "turn based == tactical" then you're in for an unpleasant surprise.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 09:05
|
|
|
The original Torment actually had some of best trash mobs in any IE game. There was that Under Sigil place where those really high level monsters kept respawning, and I have always felt that the IE games lacked the ability to just have an endless amount of combat for fun towards the end of the games.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 09:55
|
|
|
John McCain posted:The situation you're describing (relatively non-challenging trash fights) is exactly the situation in which RTwP is much BETTER than TBC since RTwP reduces interaction time and player effort to beat an encounter that arguably shouldn't exist! A better solution to the problem of sloggy TBC fights is not to dumb-down the combat, but to get rid of the boring trash fights and uninteresting combat mechanics that cause it to be a boring slog. TBC isn't slow and boring - badly designed/repetitive encounters and combat mechanics are boring. Slapping in RTwP to a game to cover up for having a lot of mechanically repetitive trash fights is just a band aid over poor design, not a cure. E: re: turn based being more tactical - chess is turn based and you don't hear anyone calling for it to be made real time to speed things up, and it's still considered one of the most strategically challenging, mentally demanding games even centuries after it's invention. ...I also wonder how many of the people who say they feel TBC is too slow have actually played the pencil-and-paper RPGs (all of which are turn based, bar none) that the IE and other D&D-spawned WRPGs are based on - I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the people who favour RTwP aren't PnP gamers and therefore are approaching things from a purely videogamer perspective. Militant Lesbian fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 10:01
|
|
|
HotCanadianChick posted:A better solution to the problem of sloggy TBC fights is not to dumb-down the combat, but to get rid of the boring trash fights and uninteresting combat mechanics that cause it to be a boring slog. Turn based combat is slower than RTwP by virtue of having people not act at the same time, so the duration of each turn will be approximately multiplied by the number of participants over how long RTwP will take. It might not necessarily be boring, but it will definitely be slower. HotCanadianChick posted:E: re: turn based being more tactical - chess is turn based and you don't hear anyone calling for it to be made real time to speed things up, and it's still considered one of the most strategically challenging, mentally demanding games even centuries after it's invention. Well, it would be difficult to convert the rules of chess to be real time. While I have heard of real time pen and paper RPGs, I think the main reason that the vast majority of them are turn based is that a human DM isn't quite as good at controlling the intricacies of how many people can do what how often in real time as, for example, a computer would be. That is, they are turn based by necessity, and with a computer that necessity no longer exists.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 10:40
|
|
|
HotCanadianChick posted:...I also wonder how many of the people who say they feel TBC is too slow have actually played the pencil-and-paper RPGs (all of which are turn based, bar none) that the IE and other D&D-spawned WRPGs are based on - I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the people who favour RTwP aren't PnP gamers and therefore are approaching things from a purely videogamer perspective. Because the entire point of PnP video games is ease of use and not having to deal with the tedious slog that is actual pen and paper gaming. If it was supposed to be a simulation game of PnP gaming, we'd only see a table with a bunch of pale nerds talking about elves and treasure and the land of bruthish R'Eznatoth or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 10:45
|
|
|
Even in some of my favorite TB games (FF Tactics, Fallout, etc.) there always comes a point where I know I'm going to win the fight and the rest is just cleanup, and I wish I could just click a button and have all my guys go "CHAERG  " and mop the rest up quickly. That's what RTwP does for me, is after I've turn-based my way over the hill I just hit the "kill everything between you and here" button and get on with the game.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 11:25
|
|
|
Currently RTwP is leading by 9 votes, i am surprised how close the voting is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 13:39
|
|
|
GetWellGamers posted:Even in some of my favorite TB games (FF Tactics, Fallout, etc.) there always comes a point where I know I'm going to win the fight and the rest is just cleanup, and I wish I could just click a button and have all my guys go "CHAERG
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 13:50
|
|
|
The Crotch posted:Some turn-based games do have a "charge" button, though? Including this one, if they decide to go with turn-based. quote:To speed things up, you can set up default actions for characters to perform until you give them a new order (for example, if your glaive is set to bash an enemy by default, you can press End Turn without giving him a new action and he will automatically bash the enemy; next turn you can tell him to do something else or leave him alone to bash again). The game will warn you if you hit End Turn while one or more party members has done nothing (and they have no default action to perform).
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 14:17
|
|
|
Oasx posted:Currently RTwP is leading by 9 votes, i am surprised how close the voting is. If it ends this close, they should just go with whatever they ultimately feel is the best. The community's opinion is so divided* on this. I just hope they don't decide to do some kind of half-assed hybrid system or devote time to trying to make it work with both and make them options, because it won't. * This is a bad choice of words probably because I had to give it a lot of thought before I voted and I would not really mind either. I suspect a lot of people are in the same boat.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 15:16
|
|
|
HotCanadianChick posted:
Whoa wait, so you're saying people are approaching an upcoming videogame ... from a videogamer perspective?? 
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 15:25
|
|
|
prometheusbound2 posted:...but Arcanum had such wonderful combat. X-Com Apocalypse is another example, probably adding further weight to the argument against wedging in both options. Turn-Based is currently slightly ahead, but it's clearly still neck-and-neck. The devs have already emphasized repeatedly that the results of this vote are strictly advisory. Given their own stated preference for a Turn-Based implementation, hopefully a split vote won't convince them to deviate from what they feel will work best. I backed these particular designers because I trust their design sense.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 15:48
|
|
|
Neither is a deal-breaker for me, so I voted neutral. But one of the key things I like about RTwP hasn't really been mentioned - it allows/forces you to react to new developments on the fly, rather than letting one side do what it wants, and then the other. That frantic sense of "no plan survives contact with the enemy" is pretty hard, if not impossible, to achieve with turn based.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 16:47
|
|
|
HotCanadianChick posted:E: re: turn based being more tactical - chess is turn based and you don't hear anyone calling for it to be made real time to speed things up, and it's still considered one of the most strategically challenging, mentally demanding games even centuries after it's invention. These are terrible arguments. You must be an RTwPer trying to embarrass TBers into switching their opinions. And yeah, what Vylan said, it's not a vote, more of a 'tell us what you think!'. The voting is there because people enjoy seeing bars and numbers go up. The devs are going to do what they ultimately decide to do - and will be reading both for possible ideas on how to implement, so if you have GOOD arguments for either one that don't include "for shittily designed encounters I prefer RTwP," or "TB reflects what a true gamer should enjoy, are YOU a true gamer?" you should add stuff to the discussion.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 16:52
|
|
|
For all intents and purposes it's still tied after 10,000+ votes and I think that's hysterical.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 19:50
|
|
|
If the vote differential is less than 1%, will the Supreme Court need to get involved?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 19:53
|
|
|
Chairchucker posted:Well, it would be difficult to convert the rules of chess to be real time.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 20:17
|
|
|
Antti posted:If it ends this close, they should just go with whatever they ultimately feel is the best. The community's opinion is so divided* on this. I just hope they don't decide to do some kind of half-assed hybrid system or devote time to trying to make it work with both and make them options, because it won't. I'm betting that what the "I don't care" category is for. If that's larger than the gap between TB and RTwP they just scrap the whole vote and say "Well what do we think is best?"
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 20:29
|
|
|
Scorchy posted:For all intents and purposes it's still tied after 10,000+ votes and I think that's hysterical. That's because they need to make their own choice and not this design by committee bullshit they're doing. They either have a vision for the game or it's going to be terrible and it seems like they're lacking the vision. Avellone is loving this up with all his little guest spots on other things when this should be his main focus, he needs to be the driving force here because he is why the original was as good as it was and instead he just wants to supervise a bunch of morons who have no idea what they're doing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
^^^ - It's not design by commitee bullshit. They're trying to engage their fans, and maybe open themselves up to possible new ideas they may not have already thought about. There's nothing wrong with trying to get different kinds of information this early on in the design process. They clearly have their preferences, but I don't think they've ever before experienced this type of developmental freedom before, so are just exploring it. No big deal....I may see merit in your argument about Avellone, but I don't have all the information necessary to criticize him if it came to that.GetWellGamers posted:I'm betting that what the "I don't care" category is for. If that's larger than the gap between TB and RTwP they just scrap the whole vote and say "Well what do we think is best?" Except they've already said they're going to do what they want, they just also felt it would be nice to get their fans' opinions and feedback as well. Drifter fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Nov 22, 2013 |
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 20:42
|
|
|
Drifter posted:Except they've already said they're going to do what they want, they just also felt it would be nice to get their fans' opinions and feedback as well. Which just makes the entire vote a fantastic way to make the two most vocal parts of your playerbase hate one another. Not that I'm complaining, the particularly angry are good theatre, but from a PR standpoint it seems ill-advised.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 20:58
|
|
|
Mr. Unlucky posted:That's because they need to make their own choice and not this design by committee bullshit they're doing. They either have a vision for the game or it's going to be terrible and it seems like they're lacking the vision. Avellone is loving this up with all his little guest spots on other things when this should be his main focus, he needs to be the driving force here because he is why the original was as good as it was and instead he just wants to supervise a bunch of morons who have no idea what they're doing. I'd like to read more about this. Can you post some links that talk about all the things they're screwing up with Torment?
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 21:10
|
|
|
^^^ -  CottonWolf posted:Which just makes the entire vote a fantastic way to make the two most vocal parts of your playerbase hate one another. Not that I'm complaining, the particularly angry are good theatre, but from a PR standpoint it seems ill-advised. The great Torment preproduction schism. NMA is going to welcome the losing half of that sobbing, bloody-eyed group with open arms. Yeah, having the terminology be 'Vote for the one you want!' with only a small little (*voting is for entertainment purposes only, is not a binding resolution) caveat up there really isn't the best of ideas.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 21:57
|
|
|
Yeah, I'm kinda in the "this vote was probably a bad idea" camp. Just riling people up at this point.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:08
|
|
|
Hannibal Rex posted:Neither is a deal-breaker for me, so I voted neutral. I don't know, X-Com does it pretty well.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:13
|
|
|
Skizzzer posted:I don't know, X-Com does it pretty well. I disagree, I think that all my plans work out in XCom. 1) Move sniper into high cover. 2) Move rookies to flank. 3) Fire. Miss. Reveal more enemies as missing fire hits surrounding environment. 4) gently caress Thin Men. 5) Build new squad back at base. Mourn old squad. Drink heavily. In all honestly, X-Com demonstrates what it takes for turn-based to really work; while aliens don't get full moves on your turn, they can set up actions to interact with your turn and your own interactions can introduce complications via envirnoment destruction and RNG screwage. I don't think that Torment's bringing the background elements needed for some of that (highly destructable enviroments), but other mechanics are buildable to compensate.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:28
|
|
|
CottonWolf posted:Which just makes the entire vote a fantastic way to make the two most vocal parts of your playerbase hate one another. Not that I'm complaining, the particularly angry are good theatre, but from a PR standpoint it seems ill-advised.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:51
|
|
|
The Crotch posted:Yeah, I'm kinda in the "this vote was probably a bad idea" camp. Just riling people up at this point. I think it was important for them to test the waters on how well turn-based combat would be received. The feedback from an announcement probably wouldn't be good enough considering vocal minorities/silent majorities. Some people are going to be angry regardless of what they go with, but they chose to pledge knowing that the combat system wasn't set in stone, so it'll be a lesson learned.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:53
|
|
|
I'm already organizing a class action lawsuit in case my side loses! 
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 22:58
|
|
|
I just hope the combat has cool combo things where your dudes work together to pull off sick moves.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 23:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:02 |
|
|
Fintilgin posted:I'm already organizing a class action lawsuit in case my side loses! The filing - 'inXile didn't do this thing they never said that they'd do!' Brother None posted:I disagree, it's been a fantastic jolt of energy for the Torment community and given us a big load of publicity. There's drawbacks for sure, but PR isn't one of 'em. A lot of people who will be upset at the end of the day would have been upset with or without a vote. A fair point. I guess the advantage of the vote being this close is you can do whatever the hell you like and still claim that it was justified by the outcome.
|
|
#
?
Nov 22, 2013 23:05
|
|