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It kinda sucks being a fan of Nurgle fluff when the only Legion to fall to him alone has gotten  amounts of characterization, both before and after the Heresy. They're...uh...dudes who like to mess with poison, and are pretty fatalist and determined I guess? This sums up Mortarion too. At least if you bring in Plague Marine characterization you get the standard Nurgle jolly fatalism, warped affection, and "you have to laugh or else you'd cry forever" humor.There's a lot of untread ground that's just ripe for both pathos-laden history and the bizarre cheeriness of Nurgle.
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Nov 22, 2013 07:20
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UberJumper posted:Thanks i will borrow it from my coworker tomorrow, so i read it after i finish up Shadows of Treachery. Isn't Russ the one who says "We don't talk about it" in one of the HH books? The common belief is Russ had to kill/sanction one or 2 of the missing primarchs and the Ultramarines absorbed the legions.
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Nov 22, 2013 07:41
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VanSandman posted:Kurze can see a little bit into the future. Hard to hit someone like that. I suppose, but just after finished reading Vulkan Lives, and seeing how badly Konrad gets stomped it just struck me as odd. The way Abnett describes Kurze fighting his brothers in the Unremembered Empire is totally different to the point where he seems like a different character. I mean we have seen some crazy stuff from the Primarchs, but I think I rolled my eyes a tad when Kurze pulls the whole been fighting this entire time, but really I had just been placing these 78 grenades "exactly as planned!" poo poo. He might as well be Nicolas Cage's character from the movie Next.
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Nov 22, 2013 09:49
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Uroboros posted:He might as well be Nicolas Cage's character from the movie Next. If there was a movie of Conrad Kurze played by Nicholas Cage with the same hair he had in Next I would watch the ever-loving hell out of it.
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Nov 22, 2013 11:29
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The point of Kurze and The Night Lords in general is that they're really tough but in a fair fight they'll always eventually lose. I won't delve too deep into the Night Lords because ADB does it better, but Kurze HAS actually gotten his rear end kicked by his brothers before, and he was losing to his two brothers in this latest instalment. It's also fairly canon that the guy loves setting traps and being a loving troll to his pursuers, but when you finally corner him he will eventually fold. I mean, he was trapped on The Lion's ship because he got his poo poo kicked in by the Lion not just once but twice in the same (awesome) short story that everyone should read ("Prince of Crows").
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Nov 22, 2013 12:48
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Arquinsiel posted:Compared to a normal human, they're both loving tanks, why are you comparing tanks to humans?
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Nov 22, 2013 14:31
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Fried Chicken posted:Ferrus Manus is the big one. Guy gets about zero screen time and loses his head. Are there any Heresy books that focus on the Iron Hands that are worth reading?
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Nov 22, 2013 15:28
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Improbable Lobster posted:Are there any Heresy books that focus on the Iron Hands that are worth reading? Honestly, I don't think they would make for particularly exciting reading, unless you're dealing directly with Ferrus Manus. They're pretty standard SMs, with maybe a little more of a tech bent. They don't get to be crazy cyborgs until after the Heresy. I think the best Iron Hands story is the one where they liberate a factory/prison and "save" one of the administrators, but then turn him into a servitor, because there is not greater honor, right? I can't remember the name of that one though.
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Nov 22, 2013 15:44
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Uroboros posted:I suppose, but just after finished reading Vulkan Lives, and seeing how badly Konrad gets stomped it just struck me as odd. The way Abnett describes Kurze fighting his brothers in the Unremembered Empire is totally different to the point where he seems like a different character. I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but I'd chalk this up to Vulkan Lives being a lovely Nick Kyme book.
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Nov 22, 2013 17:14
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Khizan posted:I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but I'd chalk this up to Vulkan Lives being a lovely Nick Kyme book.
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Nov 22, 2013 17:22
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Khizan posted:Eisenhorn. Eisenhorn is still pulpy as gently caress. And yes yes this is WH40k and pulp is to be expected but ADB's stuff inevitably delivers excellent character arcs in a way Abnett can't reliably do. Abnett's comics are pretty great, though. I really liked his Mr Majestic series.
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Nov 22, 2013 18:11
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berzerkmonkey posted:Then you'd be wrong - it's not that bad of a book. Kyme actually did a decent job with it. And Kurze doesn't really get beat down, but he does get off-footed because he wasn't expecting Vulkan to be able to rally at that point. "It's also a hammer." actually made me chuckled out loud (while secretly shouting "gently caress yeah!" in my head).
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Nov 22, 2013 19:28
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pentyne posted:Isn't Russ the one who says "We don't talk about it" in one of the HH books? The common belief is Russ had to kill/sanction one or 2 of the missing primarchs and the Ultramarines absorbed the legions. Yeah that's been hinted at countless times, Russ is the Executioner. I seem to recall reading awhile ago that in one of the shorts (about malacador and his aide?) there is a wall of the primarch symbols, and one is appears to be scratched out, and the other is just faded.
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Nov 23, 2013 01:36
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I tough angel exterminatus was kind of bad over all. Its something to do with Mcneill and the emperor's children. The way he writes them just seem obnoxious to me especially Fulgrim. Though those little glimpses into the 1st minutes of life of Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim were kind of interesting. Perturabo was ok, but his character felt kind of one note to me. Like hes always dour and grumpy. I get that it does give a certain contrast when he makes jokes or whatever, but there wasn't enough of a light-hearted side to him to warrant that in my opinion.
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Nov 23, 2013 02:12
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I tough angel exterminatus was kind of bad over all. Its something to do with Mcneill and the emperor's children. The way he writes them just seem obnoxious to me especially Fulgrim. It has to do with the perfect perfectness of their perfect perfection. Khizan fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Nov 23, 2013 |
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Nov 23, 2013 03:02
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I tough angel exterminatus was kind of bad over all. Its something to do with Mcneill and the emperor's children. The way he writes them just seem obnoxious to me especially Fulgrim. Though those little glimpses into the 1st minutes of life of Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim were kind of interesting. Not to mention it seemed like the whole venture was for naught. I still don't get why the one Eldar lead them there, and why the other one was trying to help the loyalist stop him. Fulgrim's plan failed/succeeded it really didn't make a bit of drat sense.
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Nov 23, 2013 05:05
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Uroboros posted:Not to mention it seemed like the whole venture was for naught. I still don't get why the one Eldar lead them there, and why the other one was trying to help the loyalist stop him. Fulgrim's plan failed/succeeded it really didn't make a bit of drat sense. They were trying to manipulate the legions into fighting past the guardians of the tomb world, after which they would betray the primarchs (in some nebulous and undefined fashion) and take the soulstones. It wasn't a very good plan in the first place, but hey, it's Dark Eldar. They have trouble when not led by someone who scares the piss out of them. Of course, this is also the species whose home world is lit by the black light of seven stolen suns within its own artificial pocket universe, so they don't have to plan very well. They were just up against two of the most ridiculous guys ever, and Fulgrim was favored by Chaos
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Nov 23, 2013 09:51
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wiegieman posted:They were trying to manipulate the legions into fighting past the guardians of the tomb world, after which they would betray the primarchs (in some nebulous and undefined fashion) and take the soulstones. It wasn't a very good plan in the first place, but hey, it's Dark Eldar. They have trouble when not led by someone who scares the piss out of them. Has anyone ever written an Eldar betrayal plot that wasn't some comical gently caress-up? For as much as the Eldar are masters of fate and planning every attempt they make to stop something big ends up ruining their poo poo.
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Nov 23, 2013 10:13
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pentyne posted:Has anyone ever written an Eldar betrayal plot that wasn't some comical gently caress-up? For as much as the Eldar are masters of fate and planning every attempt they make to stop something big ends up ruining their poo poo. Lord of the Night. Spoiler block because it's an actual plot twist.
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Nov 23, 2013 14:04
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Kharn_The_Betrayer posted:I tough angel exterminatus was kind of bad over all. Its something to do with Mcneill and the emperor's children. The way he writes them just seem obnoxious to me especially Fulgrim. Though those little glimpses into the 1st minutes of life of Manus, Perturabo, and Fulgrim were kind of interesting. I just got started on that one and it does feel that way. I have to say that I liked Fulgrim's entrance with the hideous carnival of frenzied, altered people; it felt like a Hyeronimus Bosch scene. But Perturabo is very one-note so far and the story's flow is...odd. I could just be that after reading enough of the HH books, you realize that the stakes are actually quite low; we all know who lives and who dies, who loses and who wins. When authors try to artificially inflate it with doomsday cenarios (Will they obtain the McGuffin that erases whole sectors?) instead of strong characterization all around (Does Lotara survive the final battle? Does Variel hunt after Talos' slaves? Does Alizabeth Bequin recover?), the whole thing wears thin fast.
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Nov 23, 2013 16:20
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Have you read Betrayer yet?
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Nov 23, 2013 16:49
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Of Galaxy in Flames, Battle for the Abyss, Fulgrim, The Primarchs, Age of Darkness, and Vulkan Lives which 2 should I read next? I feel like I've been through all the "good" novels, and I'm just waiting now. :/
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Nov 23, 2013 21:44
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Fulgrim doesn't suck.
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Nov 23, 2013 21:59
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Fulgrim and Galaxy in Flames are really the only ones of those I'd recommend reading. Neither are perfect but they had their moments. Don't worry man, soon we'll have a whole year of new Abnett and ADB.
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Nov 23, 2013 22:07
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Waroduce posted:Of Galaxy in Flames, Battle for the Abyss, Fulgrim, The Primarchs, Age of Darkness, and Vulkan Lives which 2 should I read next? I feel like I've been through all the "good" novels, and I'm just waiting now. :/ Fulgrim is a pretty good book, and does a good job describing a legions descent into chaos. Age of Darkness has a few good short stories, it isn't downright terrible like The Primarchs.
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Nov 24, 2013 00:14
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At least read the short story compilations as many of the short stories are fairly excellent.
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Nov 24, 2013 02:14
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Are there any decent books about the Lion? All through Unremembered Empire Guilliman was talking about about how awesome and amazing generally badass the Lion was, but all I've really ever heard about him here is that he has the Emperor's autism etc etc.
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Nov 24, 2013 02:19
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Waroduce posted:Of Galaxy in Flames, Battle for the Abyss, Fulgrim, The Primarchs, Age of Darkness, and Vulkan Lives which 2 should I read next? I feel like I've been through all the "good" novels, and I'm just waiting now. :/ For the love of all that's holy, avoid Battle for the Abyss. If you've read Unremembered Empire, Vulkan Lives is the story a couple years before it.
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Nov 24, 2013 02:33
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Waroduce posted:Of Galaxy in Flames, Battle for the Abyss, Fulgrim, The Primarchs, Age of Darkness, and Vulkan Lives which 2 should I read next? I feel like I've been through all the "good" novels, and I'm just waiting now. :/ Since Galaxy in Flames was part of the initial trilogy of books, i would recommend you read that one. As for Battle for the Abyss i would skip that. Though i think its still worth experiencing, if just to understand why people think its so bad.
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Nov 24, 2013 03:12
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Khizan posted:Are there any decent books about the Lion? Its funny because the Lion has had, 2 books, and i think 4 short stories about him and his legion. They have all been more or less not that great. His motivations are never really explained, and his characterization is iffy. I too want one good book about the Lion.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:35
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UberJumper posted:Fulgrim is a pretty good book, and does a good job describing a legions descent into chaos. Age of Darkness has a few good short stories, it isn't downright terrible like The Primarchs. Plus, if you make a drinking game out of taking a sip every time the word 'perfect' appears, you can get into the plot as a victim of excess unto death!
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Nov 24, 2013 05:53
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If you try that you'll be unconscious by the end of the second chapter. EDIT: Got curious and searched for "perfect" on my kindle, 37 hits. 17 of them are before the location that marks the start of Chapter Three. Khizan fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 05:57
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UberJumper posted:Its funny because the Lion has had, 2 books, and i think 4 short stories about him and his legion. They have all been more or less not that great. His motivations are never really explained, and his characterization is iffy. Abnett perfectly characterized the Lion in The Unremembered Empire- he's secretive, he holds his cards too close to his chest and doesn't allow anyone to get close to him. His lack of trust of anyone else, even his own brothers, causes a like response in return that essentially creates a cycle of distrust. Gulliman says that Johnson has a little too much of the dark forests of Caliban in him for his own good.
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Nov 24, 2013 15:56
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Has anyone read Engine of Mork? Is it actually from an ork POV?
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Nov 24, 2013 23:37
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berzerkmonkey posted:Abnett perfectly characterized the Lion in The Unremembered Empire- he's secretive, he holds his cards too close to his chest and doesn't allow anyone to get close to him. His lack of trust of anyone else, even his own brothers, causes a like response in return that essentially creates a cycle of distrust. Gulliman says that Johnson has a little too much of the dark forests of Caliban in him for his own good. I still do not understand what the dark forests of Caliban did to him that makes him not trust anyone. Honestly the one thing i still do not get really is his falling out with Luther. Aliens sneak bomb onto ship, Luther saves the day. His reward is he is more or less told to go back to Caliban. I finished Shadows of Treachery, and honestly it was probably the best Anthology so far. I didn't see this posted but, the next HH book is:   *EDIT* Apparently Dan Abnett's next HH book is called "Dreadwing". Dark Angels  Also from Laurie Gouldings forum: quote:Vengeful Spirit (2014) by Graham Mcneill UberJumper fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 07:30
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UberJumper posted:I still do not understand what the dark forests of Caliban did to him that makes him not trust anyone. Honestly the one thing i still do not get really is his falling out with Luther. Aliens sneak bomb onto ship, Luther saves the day. His reward is he is more or less told to go back to Caliban. Caliban was pretty much soaking in some kind of chaos or warp influence when the Lion got there, it's implied that he had a pretty hard time surviving in the woods, fighting off chaos monsters for however many years it took for him to be found, so maybe it's an attempt to write in some kind of PTSD-type thing. Regarding Luther, I think his beef was that the Lion didn't explain the huge importance of the training duty enough, so he took it as an insult rather than the promotion it was. The guy was told to watch over the expansion of the HQ, and train the next generations of recruits, for a legion like the Dark Angels, that's a pretty important job. There also seems to be a running trend of the primarchs' earliest supporters souring on the whole great crusade deal once they get out there and the legionaires start getting involved. Immanentized fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 15:03
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^^Whoops, guess I should refresh after walking away for a while so I don't essentially repeat someone else...UberJumper posted:I still do not understand what the dark forests of Caliban did to him that makes him not trust anyone. Honestly the one thing i still do not get really is his falling out with Luther. Aliens sneak bomb onto ship, Luther saves the day. His reward is he is more or less told to go back to Caliban. Regarding the falling out with Luther, the Lion does share the blame, but it sounds more like the fault of Luther - he saved the day, but only after allowing the bomb aboard in the first place. Instead of taking his punishment, he let it go to his head, and wound up becoming corrupted by it. Plus, he wasn't a Space Marine anyway - he was a guy in power armor, like Kor Phaeron. And just like Kor Phaeron, he desired power and glory. berzerkmonkey fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 15:21
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berzerkmonkey posted:
Was he really power hungry? Kor Phaeron wanted to use Lorgar from the start, whereas Luther really was a father figure to the Lion until he surpassed him. And even then, he stepped aside. He also understood the Lion's isolation because he has no equals. Luther would have been a giant in Caliban history. Possibly the greatest, strongest, wisest knight they ever had - but he had the misfortune of being born in a time where he would be compared with a goddam primarch. He had one moment of weakness where he saw the bomb in the hanger and thought about the possibility of what would happen if the Lion was killed. Then he got rid of it. Of course, the Lion being a moody mistrusting sperg couldn't let it go - although on a second read the narator doesn't really know what was said between them. There must have been enough forgiveness to trust the running of Caliban and the training of the new blood to Luther, but he never fought alongside him again. Reading the two HH books, I got the impression that the Lion was trying to distance himself from Caliban because he knew it was tainted. There was also the rumblings of revolt from those who wanted the old orders back. Luther was seen as a figurehead they could rally around. The Lion seems to have taken on the Emperor's ability to completely neglect key people, so he left Luther on the sidelines to run the planet without him, deal with an uprising, deal with a chaos infestation, etc. Through all this, the Lion's favourites are out there on adventures while Zahariel and the old school knights are completely shunned after nothing more than a small skirmish (which I still can't remember because the end of that book is so bad). In classic WH40k, the whole thing could have been sorted if they sat down with a beer and talked...
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Nov 26, 2013 17:41
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Dog_Meat posted:In classic WH40k, the whole thing could have been sorted if they sat down with a beer and talked... In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only mixed drinks.
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Nov 26, 2013 18:46
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The thing with Luther being sent back to Caliban makes sense to me. Maybe I'm outing myself as an aspie, but sending your most trusted friend to keep an eye in things doesn't seem like the worst move.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:49
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