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systran posted:Coma did you ever get that upside down world story that you wrote published somewhere? Submitted to a couple of places, but nothing. I know there's a market for that sort of thing somewhere, but I'm damned if I can find it...
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Nov 23, 2013 09:50
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Stuporstar posted:I know you probably don't need this advice, General Battuta, but I've noticed some of the most unintentionally offensive writing comes from dudes who have a male proxy character fixating on their far more interesting female character, because they're too loving scared to write from a woman's POV. I've told several of these people to scrap the male character (with zero personality except horny for the interesting chick) and write from the girl/woman's POV instead, and they always wuss out and walk away from the challenge little boys. It's loving frustrating when they've managed to come up with honestly amazing female characters, but refuse to get inside their heads. Oh man, I've been planning on doing this. There is no asexual attraction between the characters, though. I was going for a more Watson/Sherlock thing, where the female knows things that the male and therefore the reader don't, for like, intrigue or something. I dunno. I was considering having some sections be first person from the got, and others switch to third for other characters, which could include the female character.
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Nov 23, 2013 14:37
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Symptomless Coma posted:Submitted to a couple of places, but nothing. I know there's a market for that sort of thing somewhere, but I'm damned if I can find it... What length, what genre, where's it been so far?
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Nov 23, 2013 15:09
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PoshAlligator posted:Oh man, I've been planning on doing this. There is no asexual attraction between the characters, though. I was going for a more Watson/Sherlock thing, where the female knows things that the male and therefore the reader don't, for like, intrigue or something. I dunno. Looking back at what I'd posted last night, I'd say the unintentionally offensive part is a personality-free male character who serves as a proxy for the author to drool over the interesting female character (which I have seen way too many times), and comes across as the young, insecure dude version of Twilight. I'd say you're safe on that count with a Watson/Sherlock thing. When it comes to POV, just remember to go with the person who has the most at stake. You have to have a reason to put the reader in the Watson's head, more reason than just hiding things from the reader. Your Watson has to have enough tension and conflict to carry the story—otherwise, scrap the Watson. Writing from your female character's POV is a good idea even if it ends up not fitting and you pull it out afterwards. In earlier drafts of my first complete novel, I forced the focal character's POV in because I thought she balanced the other two male POVs. It wasn't until I nearly finished the second draft that I realized how uncomfortably she was wedged in there (and it took more than one person telling me I'd smushed three separate stories together and they didn't mesh well). In every one of her chapters, the tension dropped to zero and I had to manufacture conflict. Because she was the one character who had her poo poo together, I had to literally have poo poo smash through the ceiling to shake her up. I decided to pull her POV entirely, but having written it, she's coming across as more real in every scene I write from outside her POV, and staying outside her head keeps her dominant and intimidating. The effort was not wasted. I'd say it was even necessary. I'm the kind of writer who needs to test drive every major character by writing scenes for them. Whether or not I use those scenes doesn't matter. The exercise is useful.
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Nov 23, 2013 21:37
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I definitely know what you mean about test driving, I find it so hard to get a feeling for any writing without just getting stuck in, even if it's just for a little bit before I pull out and see what's working. You've definitely given me stuff to think about, but I currently feel it's justified. The male character is also returning from being away for a long time, and a lot has changed in his absence, so I feel that outsider perspective is nice to have. Funnily enough, as a dude, I try to write from a female perspective wherever possible. I think because I am not female, I have to stretch a little more when thinking about female characters, and I think that pays off in the end and stops me using dumb shortcuts by making male characters that are just quite similar to me but a bit different.
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Nov 23, 2013 23:37
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I just have a quick question about extended dialogue. Let's say I have a character who is explaining something, but requires more than just a few lines of dialogue. I've seen it done in literature before where a character speaks for pages on end uninterrupted -- specifically, in H.G. Well's The Time Machine. My question is how would one format such dialogue? Would you just paragraph as appropriate, adding a quotation mark at the beginning of each chapter and then just using the ending quotation mark at the end of all of the dialogue, like so:quote:"My mother was of Scottish descent. She married a gypsy man by the name of Salianca and together they danced the night away while she played the bagpipes. That's definitely not real text, but that format is how I recall it being in The Time Machine, though I read that book a long time ago and that may not really be proper form. Or is there some other method? Or is it just generally considered inappropriate to have a character speak for so long uninterrupted without any sort of non-dialogue text to support it? McSlaughter fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 02:50
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Why would you want to do that?
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Nov 24, 2013 03:11
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Grammatically, that is the correct thing to do. Narratively, I'd think long and hard about doing a thing like that.
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Nov 24, 2013 03:14
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neongrey posted:Grammatically, that is the correct thing to do. Narratively, I'd think long and hard about doing a thing like that. Thank you. Martello posted:Why would you want to do that? Word limit is making it hard to fit everything I want into this piece and it seemed to be the only way to really convey the overall story in a concise manner. The segment in question is a father telling a story to his son. I'm trying to find alternatives but I'm at least trying to get out some kind of first draft so I can have the whole thing done once so I can tear it to pieces on the revisions. Hopefully somewhere in that I will be able to work it out so that I don't have to do that, but currently it's the only option I've conceived. Edit: Actually come to think of it I may just tear out the entire first part altogether, which will free up something like two or three hundred words.
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Nov 24, 2013 03:26
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When the monologue is extremely long I've seen it done where the author ends a chapter with "Alice began to speak." then puts the text of the monologue in the next chapter without any quotation marks. Certainly The Time Machine did it with quotation marks but it's also written a hundred years ago and the format seems anachronistic when I'd just expect a writer to switch PoV.
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Nov 24, 2013 03:35
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McSlaughter posted:I just have a quick question about extended dialogue. Let's say I have a character who is explaining something, but requires more than just a few lines of dialogue. This exact question was asked and answered just one page ago in this very thread. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:I'm not sure if you are asking a technical question about punctuation or a broader question about how to split paragraphs in a monologue so they flow. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 03:37
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Promethium posted:When the monologue is extremely long I've seen it done where the author ends a chapter with "Alice began to speak." then puts the text of the monologue in the next chapter without any quotation marks. Certainly The Time Machine did it with quotation marks but it's also written a hundred years ago and the format seems anachronistic when I'd just expect a writer to switch PoV. I would switch POV but the piece is a flash fiction piece (read: it's for Thunderdome) so I don't really have the option to switch POV to the father's perspective. I purposefully chose to have the story be told from the first-person perspective of the son and I think backing out on that halfway through the piece would be even weaker than just having the father speak his monologue. Obviously because it's a flash fiction piece I can't use that chapter method, either. Normally I'd have the son react with his thoughts throughout, but because of the word limit I really don't have enough words to do that and effectively convey the story. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:This exact question was asked and answered within the last five pages of the thread. I'm sorry, I'll do better to read next time. Normally I try to follow this thread pretty closely but I guess I missed that. Edit: Thanks for reposting the answer though!
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Nov 24, 2013 03:39
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The only acceptable narrative reason I can think of for doing a thing like that is if you're telling the story in first person and having someone ask them to tell their side of the story as a framing device. In that case, doing what's grammatically correct is more than likely going to get in the way of telling the story, so just chuck the quotation marks and find a more subtle way to lead into a character talking for an entire chapter or whatever. If you're instead doing it because you just want to barf out exposition in huge meaty chunks, please don't. People don't tend to spill their life stories in such length and so coherently unless they're eager to see their name in print and someone's sitting in front of them taking notes. Edit: Update based on new info. My advice is don't. Write the father's backstory and then cut it. Then try to find ways to imply the backstory without using exposition at all, and you'll have a stronger story for it (whoever's running TD this week, please make this a flash rule for McSlaughter). PoshAlligator posted:Funnily enough, as a dude, I try to write from a female perspective wherever possible. I think because I am not female, I have to stretch a little more when thinking about female characters, and I think that pays off in the end and stops me using dumb shortcuts by making male characters that are just quite similar to me but a bit different. I find the same thing. The more similar a character is to me, the duller they tend to be, so I try to stretch my experience out as far away from myself as possible. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 03:51
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Stuporstar posted:Edit: Update based on new info. My advice is don't. Write the father's backstory and then cut it. Then try to find ways to imply the backstory without using exposition at all, and you'll have a stronger story for it (whoever's running TD this week, please make this a flash rule for McSlaughter). Haha, well poo poo, that really sort of tears my story to shreds. I guess I'd better come up with something new.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:03
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McSlaughter posted:Haha, well poo poo, that really sort of tears my story to shreds. I guess I'd better come up with something new. Don't you wimp out on me. Exposition is for the weak. A real warrior wordslinger tells a story through subtext, lies, and long lingering pauses full of discomfort. And symbolism. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 04:12
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Stuporstar posted:Don't you wimp out on me. Exposition is for the weak. A real warrior wordslinger tells a story through subtext, lies, and long lingering pauses full of discomfort. And symbolism. See, but I really wouldn't say that the father's story is exposition at all. But I guess it's all subjective and I'm not very experienced to begin with so my arguing is futile. I'm currently trying to make it work but the entire idea behind the father telling this story about his own father's awfulness to his son is sort of what ignites the other events in the present and conveys the overall message of the story. I'm trying to get it figured out. I'm not wimping out. Just have to approach it in an entirely new way.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:18
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McSlaughter posted:See, but I really wouldn't say that the father's story is exposition at all. But I guess it's all subjective and I'm not very experienced to begin with so my arguing is futile. YES! This is what the Thunderdome is about. Good luck, soldier.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:21
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I quite liked Camus' The Fall, which is entirely one guy's speech in a dialogue spanning days, so I don't see why it couldn't potentially work in a short form.
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Nov 24, 2013 04:26
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McSlaughter posted:See, but I really wouldn't say that the father's story is exposition at all. But I guess it's all subjective and I'm not very experienced to begin with so my arguing is futile. Stuporstar posted:YES! This is what the Thunderdome is about. Good luck, soldier. I'd say the best way to learn is for somebody to try something out and judge for themselves how well it works. I agree with Stuporstar's advice, but I don't agree that just because something is right for someone else that it means it is right for everybody else. I especially don't think there is any cause for people to cast their opinion on something before it is written. Tear it apart for said reasons afterwards, that is fine, but otherwise no. Also, and I apologise in advance for what is going to look like me harping on and reading way too much into a throwaway sentence, but I think it is dangerous to bandy around words like "acceptable" in relation to any kind of writing. Nobody is in a position to judge what is or isn't acceptable writing. At this point I'm just crowbarring this awkwardly into something that I believe is a completely unintentional, yet still harmful, practice that kind of goes on in a lot of crits I see around CC where people are very quick to poo poo on any kind of quirky stylistic writing or experimental fiction because it doesn't conform to a standardised 'tight' type of narrative. While I'm filling a post with things for people to disagree with, I also think that spelling, punctuation and grammar are the least important things for a writer to get to grips with (OK, beyond a basic level). If I had to make a comparison, they are like the clothes a musician wears: for appearance's sake only. So long as you are able to convey your story in a way that people are able to follow clearly, that is the only thing that matters. Polishing your grammar is simply good form, and to make yourself presentable to others. People might say I'm having my cake and eating it too here, because you can't have a story with good clarity and flow without good grammar, but I think my central point still stands that a whole bunch of the fiddly little rules that don't really impinge on a reader's comprehension are practically irrelevant. Some people get incredibly nitpicky about these sorts of things, but the problem lies within them rather than the author.
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Nov 24, 2013 05:38
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Stuporstar posted:(whoever's running TD this week, please make this a flash rule for McSlaughter). Done. I will presume you don't need an official  Flash Rule in the thread, but I will be very grumpy if I see a huge block of exposition by dialogue.Edit: To acknowledge Jeza's fair point, don't do a huge block of exposition by dialogue unless it's loving awesome. This is the hidden Rule #0 for all of this stuff. sebmojo fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 05:49
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sebmojo posted:Done. I will presume you don't need an official Alright so this leaves me a bit confused. The part of my piece in question here is something I wouldn't consider exposition. Sure, it's a story within the story, but it doesn't outright say anything of a "this sets up the conflict for the rest of the piece" nature and it definitely isn't explicitly what the prompt for this week's TD asked not to have (that is, the beginning explaining the crime in question that is the action for the story [though, spoilers some sort of crime is involved in the story]). So... I'm going to bend this flash rule a little bit and say that the "huge block of exposition" in question will not be present in my piece.If I fail I guess I fail and I'll take my punishment like a man. Or if I wake up tomorrow and a sudden burst of clarity and enthusiasm strikes me I will pen the entire thing with a totally different approach. Maybe. Edit: Just for clarification looking back at a previous post, I'd like to redact what I said about the story the father tells as "igniting the events in the [rest of the] story." I can see how that would sound like some sort of device for exposition and I apologize for those choice of words. It definitely doesn't do that, it's just a parallel amid the story that conveys some of the deeper themes going on in the piece. McSlaughter fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 06:18
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McSlaughter posted:Alright so this leaves me a bit confused. The part of my piece in question here is something I wouldn't consider exposition. Sure, it's a story within the story, but it doesn't outright say anything of a "this sets up the conflict for the rest of the piece" nature and it definitely isn't explicitly what the prompt for this week's TD asked not to have (that is, the beginning explaining the crime in question that is the action for the story [though, Just go for it, and we can continue this discussion once you've posted the story. Edit: vvvv I agree with this vvvv sebmojo fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Nov 24, 2013 |
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Nov 24, 2013 07:34
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Question: Why are we discouraging large swarths of expository dialogue in a Thunderdome entry when part of the benefit of Thunderdome, if not its very reason for existence, is that beginning writers can try poo poo like this with little relative risk? I mean, the outcome of McSlaughter's entry is either: a.) It sucks rear end, the author is told in no uncertain terms that it sucks rear end, and learns a little bit more about his/her capabilities or limitations, b.) It actually works really drat well and the READERS learn a little something new, or c.) A variant mix of (a) and (b), wherein the readers can see that the author was trying to do something cool, but couldn't make it work. This is what we do. Because of the flexible, personal nature of art, we can't learn not to write poo poo until we get it out of our system. So let him write poo poo. Tell him it was a bad move later, and if he's a big boy (or girl), he'll accept it, learn from it, and move on.
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Nov 24, 2013 16:55
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Sometimes I write things that just plain don't work in TD. I've written stories with all dialog and ones with no dialog. Some of the stories I like the most others hate. Worst case scenario is that you lose. And who cares. Hillock just lost and he's a good writer. What he tried didn't work but nobody hates him for it.
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Nov 24, 2013 17:26
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Oh for gently caress's sake. Thunderdome used to be about pushing people out of their comfort zones and encouraging them to try something they may have never thought of before. The whole point of flash rules was to add an extra constraint if we felt you needed one for that extra push. Sure, you can submit whatever the gently caress you want and if it sucks it sucks. McSlaughter can even reject the Oblique Strategy I just handed him, but it would be a damned shame if he didn't even try. Is TD not about challenging you guys at all anymore? Is creative discomfort not a thing you're willing to engage with? You all just want to cruise along doing whatever? Fine. Do whatever.
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Nov 24, 2013 23:42
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Stuporstar posted:Oh for gently caress's sake. Thunderdome used to be about pushing people out of their comfort zones and encouraging them to try something they may have never thought of before. The whole point of flash rules was to add an extra constraint if we felt you needed one for that extra push. Sure, you can submit whatever the gently caress you want and if it sucks it sucks. McSlaughter can even reject the Oblique Strategy I just handed him, but it would be a damned shame if he didn't even try. Is TD not about challenging you guys at all anymore? Is creative discomfort not a thing you're willing to engage with? You all just want to cruise along doing whatever? Fine. Do whatever. I just typed up my second draft and I promise you it was not a wall of exposition. I pushed myself and I'd really like to think this rewrite came out really well. Now to do some editing to make sure it actually worked. And thank you again for all the advice and discussion across the board to everyone.
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Nov 24, 2013 23:58
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McSlaughter posted:I just typed up my second draft and I promise you it was not a wall of exposition. I pushed myself and I'd really like to think this rewrite came out really well. Now to do some editing to make sure it actually worked. Know that my rant wasn't directed at you but at all those people whining on your behalf. By your posts, I get the feeling you stepped up to the challenge, and I look forward to reading your entry. Whether you win or not, you're a winner for pushing yourself. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 00:58
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I haven't been in the TD for a while (I've been damned busy, sorry, I yearn in my heart), but the one time I had a flash rule to write in the second-person was both my worst entry ever, but also possibly the most informative entry. Take from that what you will.
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Nov 25, 2013 01:08
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Is there any good information out there about working with editors? A friend of mine offered to edit a few of my short stories but her experience is primarily as a newspaper editor, so we're both unsure of how that changes for a creative piece.
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Nov 25, 2013 06:29
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General Battuta posted:What length, what genre, where's it been so far? 500w / Borgesian thought experiment seriously not trying to be a dick but I don't know what else to call it / a comp for under-500w fiction, and a mag here in London called Cadaverine, but I really don't think that's what they're looking for. But hey, Mad Revolt posted:Is there any good information out there about working with editors? A friend of mine offered to edit a few of my short stories but her experience is primarily as a newspaper editor, so we're both unsure of how that changes for a creative piece. In what way? Do you mean what she should be looking for? Or terms of payment stuff? I assume it's the former, in which case there are loads of "how to workshop stories" posts online. I imagine the one thing you'll want to do if she's a newspaper editor is make sure she doesn't slip into line edit more too fast. Keep her looking at the big picture: character, story arc, themes, voice (not in that order) before getting down to language, passive voice etc. quote:thunderdome Here's a thought: if TD makes anyone not write a thing they were going to write, it's definitely performing the opposite of its function. Symptomless Coma fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 17:09
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Symptomless Coma posted:500w / Borgesian thought experiment seriously not trying to be a dick but I don't know what else to call it / a comp for under-500w fiction, and a mag here in London called Cadaverine, but I really don't think that's what they're looking for. I'd really like to read a longer story set in this universe. Have you thought about writing anything else like it?
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Nov 25, 2013 18:00
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Mad Revolt posted:Is there any good information out there about working with editors? A friend of mine offered to edit a few of my short stories but her experience is primarily as a newspaper editor, so we're both unsure of how that changes for a creative piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIpT-ku1Aho Try to find part 1 and start there, but this guy gave a lot of good info about short story writing and publishing. I recall he said somewhere that most short fiction writers don't have agents or editors, but he did because he's very successful. I would recommend just joining/forming a writing group and let other writers kind of act as your editors. If your friend is willing to do it for you, it's cool, but if she doesn't really know what short fiction is all about, she may not be the best fit.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:44
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Unless you're only looking for pointers on punctuation and flow, you really need an editor who actually reads in the genre you're writing in.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:54
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Symptomless Coma posted:Here's a thought: if TD makes anyone not write a thing they were going to write, it's definitely performing the opposite of its function. Except that's not what happened.   Here's a thought: let's not project our own insecurities on another poster because his initial gut reaction was, "drat, that sounds hard," but decided to try the suggestion anyway and it turned out the story he wanted to write turned out even better for him and he felt satisfied for having done something he initially thought difficult, which is what really happened. VV Then you do that. Good for you. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 22:24
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Stuporstar posted:ou all just want to cruise along doing whatever? Fi generally, yes.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:27
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I wanna try TD but I'm decidedly a genre writer. Will I be stomped?
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Nov 25, 2013 22:32
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ravenkult posted:I wanna try TD but I'm decidedly a genre writer. Will I be stomped? sure come on by and just do whatever you want. That's how we roll in TD. Feels good.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:38
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ravenkult posted:I wanna try TD but I'm decidedly a genre writer. Will I be stomped? Tons of stories in TD are genre. I've entered 17 times and all but two of mine were genre.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:40
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crabrock posted:sure come on by and just do whatever you want. That's how we roll in TD. Feels good. Sounds like you're luring me into a loving trap.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:41
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ravenkult posted:I wanna try TD but I'm decidedly a genre writer. Will I be stomped? Whether you'll be stomped depends on you, but it won't likely be for that! Most rounds of TD allow genre as long as the prompt is met, and if genre fic isn't welcomed, the prompt post for that week will say so.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:41
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