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DS9 is at least better about women (I'm only in season 5 so far, maybe it gets worse). Sometimes they can't figure out quite what to do with Dax, but at least her refusal to be with Bashir is treated mostly without comment and makes you laugh at him instead of feeling Nice Guy sorry for him.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:50
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1st AD posted:Oh yeah don't get me started; she started off with a very harsh look and each year they made her more and more feminine until in season 7 she's got long-ish hair and a Bajoran catsuit. I think she looked cuter with short hair. But she looked really nice in the Federation uniform in that one episode where she is working with the Cardasian underground.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:52
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Voyager complaint #5454564: So Tuvok is trained in so many martial arts, yet he always gets his rear end kicked, even by Seven.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:31
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Contrast with TNG where they were dumb enough to have someone be like "hurr a Klingon scientist?! isn't that ridiculous??!? DS9 literally did the same thing, with Cardassians
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Nov 25, 2013 21:34
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rypakal posted:DS9 literally did the same thing, with Cardassians Cardassians don't have quite the same uncomfortable racial undertones that Klingons do, though.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:40
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Contrast with TNG where they were dumb enough to have someone be like "hurr a Klingon scientist?! isn't that ridiculous??!? 
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Nov 25, 2013 21:41
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rypakal posted:DS9 literally did the same thing, with Cardassians This was also done with Ferengi in TNG. It's not a reflection of a stupid attitude, just recognizing that every member of a certain race they showed on the show before was in the military or were antagonists. It's just a self-aware comment.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:41
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I mean, it can be kind of okay if your made up aliens have tendencies toward a thing, like if your elves are super-intelligent or your Vulcans have no emotion or whatever. When it's a problem is when your space species or dragonland race is insensitively similar to real stereotypes about real races and cultures, which happens with the Ferengi, Klingons and Chakotay.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:46
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, it can be kind of okay if your made up aliens have tendencies toward a thing, like if your elves are super-intelligent or your Vulcans have no emotion or whatever. When it's a problem is when your space species or dragonland race is insensitively similar to real stereotypes about real races and cultures, which happens with the Ferengi, Klingons and Chakotay. Wait, so you're actually claiming it's different because :reasons:? Which real stereotype are the Klingons insensitively similar to? Mongols? I figure you probably meant "black", but I see no similarities other than, you know, the blackface. Are there Mongolian scientists?
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Nov 25, 2013 21:53
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rypakal posted:
I mean.... that's a pretty big one.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:54
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You're the real racist
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Nov 25, 2013 21:55
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Klingons are supposed to be space Russians. They were a metaphor/symbol of the cold war. Hence Undiscovered Country mirroring the fall of the Soviet Union.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:57
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rypakal posted:Wait, so you're actually claiming it's different because :reasons:? Yeah calling Klingons an African American stereotype is pretty weird. They're mostly a cartoon version of medieval Mongols, but are sometimes Vikings. In TOS they're Russians.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:58
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I think dressing up your animalistic space barbarians in blackface is mildly insensitive and I see no similar situation with the Cardassians, but maybe that's just me v v
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Nov 25, 2013 21:59
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DS9s Purple-face minstrel show was insensitive to Armenians everywhere.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:02
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Bicyclops posted:I think dressing up your animalistic space barbarians in blackface is mildly insensitive and I see no similar situation with the Cardassians, but maybe that's just me v On Ferengi-chat, what I recall from TNG that was a bit interesting is how in Season 1 the Ferengi are these new, mysterious, menacing aliens and yet if I recall in season 7 there's a Ferengi astronomer guy and he isn't even a womanizer or profit-mad, he's just a short dude with big lobes. They could have obviously come up with a new race or some poo poo for that, but I thought it was an interesting touch.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:20
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I think favorite thing about Klingon culture is that you can be whatever you want as long as you pretend you're fighting a battle of some sort.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:36
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Nessus posted:On Ferengi-chat, what I recall from TNG that was a bit interesting is how in Season 1 the Ferengi are these new, mysterious, menacing aliens and yet if I recall in season 7 there's a Ferengi astronomer guy and he isn't even a womanizer or profit-mad, he's just a short dude with big lobes. They could have obviously come up with a new race or some poo poo for that, but I thought it was an interesting touch. Part of that episode was about the Ferengi scientist facing discrimination from other scientists simply because he was a Ferengi, even.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:41
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Nessus posted:On Ferengi-chat, what I recall from TNG that was a bit interesting is how in Season 1 the Ferengi are these new, mysterious, menacing aliens and yet if I recall in season 7 there's a Ferengi astronomer guy and he isn't even a womanizer or profit-mad, he's just a short dude with big lobes. They could have obviously come up with a new race or some poo poo for that, but I thought it was an interesting touch. IIRC the Ferengi were supposed to be the new big bad aliens since we made nice with the Klingons, but then they turned out to be comically unintimidating, so they came up with the Borg and relegated the Ferengi to comic relief.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:07
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jng2058 posted:Well, if the very existence of Ferrengi is odious to you, there's nothing to be done. Some combination of Quark, Rom, or Nog appears in nearly every episode of DS9. If you can get past the three characters who are regulars and actually develop over the seasons and want to just avoid "Ferrengi Episodes" that focus on Ferrengi culture and include some of my least favorite episodes of the show, then you're talking about one a season to skip. Personally it doesn't stop me from enjoying Quark, Rom, and Nog as characters, the performances from their actors, or DS9 as a whole. What it does is put a sort of unnecessary hurdle to get over, one which wouldn't be there if a few different decisions were made during the show's production. If I was showing TNG to some one for the first time, and wanted them to have a favorable impression of it, I'd straight up skip the early Ferengi episodes, the planet with the black tribal people Picard has to outsmart, and that one where Troi gets knocked up in her sleep by some space god. They just raise too many uncomfortable implications which can get in the way of enjoying the show, and they're not how I'd want the show as a whole to be represented to some one. Early TNG is in a sort of weird transition zone. TOS is clearly dated and you go into it with full expectation you're going to be rolling your eyes at a bunch of archaic 60's social norms. TNG ran until '94, so when you go back to an early episode and bump into something which offends modern sensibilities it feels a lot more shocking, since the civil rights movements were supposed to have "won" by then. Preechr posted:There is an endgame Cheyenne. They just announced an endgame Miranda variant. There is no endgame NX. Awesome, thanks.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:28
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Nessus posted:Well Michael Dorn actually is black, though now that I think of it most klingons did have a similar skin tone and I suspect that would mean it was makeup on at least some of them. I also suppose they slathered it on for people like Christopher Lee. I think you mean Christopher Lloyd. Christopher Lee is like Brian Blessed and Michael Ironside, in that he's one of those "wait, he's never been on Trek!?" people.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:42
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Vagabundo posted:I think you mean Christopher Lloyd. Yet another reason for new Trek on TV. Brian Blessed as a Klingon, Michael Ironside as a Cardassian, and Christopher Lee as a Romulan.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:17
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Werthog 95 posted:IIRC the Ferengi were supposed to be the new big bad aliens since we made nice with the Klingons, but then they turned out to be comically unintimidating, so they came up with the Borg and relegated the Ferengi to comic relief.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:01
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Whalley posted:I refuse to believe they were supposed to be Big Bads, because they're literally Space Goblins Planet of the Black People, remember. TNG season 1 and 2 have way more in common with TOS than they do with seasons 4, 5 and 6.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:42
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Don't forget about planet Oirish
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Nov 26, 2013 02:03
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Whalley posted:I refuse to believe they were supposed to be Big Bads, because they're literally Space Goblins Roddenberry went pretty freaking loopy during those first few seasons of TNG. Him being ousted as a showrunner was one of the things that kept Star Trek alive.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:08
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1st AD posted:Don't forget about planet Oirish
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Nov 26, 2013 02:15
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Gau posted:Roddenberry went pretty freaking loopy during those first few seasons of TNG. Him being ousted as a showrunner was one of the things that kept Star Trek alive. Credit where it's due, Rick Berman performed something of miracle in pulling it together and keeping TNG going until it hit the sweet spot.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:16
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Werthog 95 posted:IIRC the Ferengi were supposed to be the new big bad aliens since we made nice with the Klingons, but then they turned out to be comically unintimidating, so they came up with the Borg and relegated the Ferengi to comic relief.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:24
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That sweet phaser whip thing was pretty rad though.
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Nov 26, 2013 02:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah, the Ferengi were a joke, and I'm not sure what Gene was thinking with their early appearances. Their late TNG/DS9 appearances made far more sense to me. At least that gave us the Borg. I suspect as hard as they were hammering the post-scarcity egalitarian space-socialism with smug Picard speeches he probably thought that the literal opposite would make the best foil?
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Nov 26, 2013 02:57
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Writer Cath posted:That sweet phaser whip thing was pretty rad though. I really wish that had shown up again in The Magnificent Ferengi
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Nov 26, 2013 03:01
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Haven't posted in the Trek thread in ages...feels like coming home... Been thinking a lot lately about how Trek has sort of fallen into obscurity, despite the JJTrek universe's best intentions. The new movies are so far removed from the shows that it doesn't really feel like new fans have been generated much at all. At the same time though, Dr. Who has become pretty mainstream despite its former clandestine status. What a difference a decade can make, I guess. Zoph fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 03:56
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Writer Cath posted:That sweet phaser whip thing was pretty rad though. I have no idea how something like that could work, but it's still awesome. Whalley's right, it should've shown up in The Magnificent Ferengi. Would've been a fun callback.
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Nov 26, 2013 03:58
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Paper Lion posted:You're the real racist It's like this thread learned nothing from the episode about left-black right-white vs right-black left-white.
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Nov 26, 2013 04:51
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This thread is no more than a homo sapiens only club.
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Nov 26, 2013 04:55
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jscolon2.0 posted:It's like this thread learned nothing from the episode about left-black right-white vs right-black left-white. That gave us one of the best exchanges in Trek history: Kirk: You're black on one side and white on the other. Bele: I am black on the right side. Kirk: I fail to see the significant difference. Bele: Lokai is white on the right side. All of his people are white on the right side. Kirk & Spock: 
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Nov 26, 2013 05:04
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Zophar posted:Haven't posted in the Trek thread in ages...feels like coming home... Well, if my own exceedingly informal survey of Tumblr is anything to go on, JJTrek does seem to get its fans interested in trying TOS and the old movies. Doesn't seem to persuade them to make the leap to the TNG era, though; most of the people I've seen talking about TNG/DS9 (I assume there are people who talk about Voyager, but I will not speak of them) are people who grew up with the shows, generally in their late 20s and 30s. If I had to guess, I would say that the TNG era shows would be a bit harder to get into due to their transitional nature: the way they tell their stories is familiar enough that they can't be enjoyed as pure camp the way TOS can be, but they're old enough that to someone raised wholly on contemporary television they can't help but feel lacking. Look at the criticisms of TNG's stalid setting, lack of character change, etc... I must admit, I am kinda sad to see the TNG era go. I liked it, for all its flaws. I liked the idea of a series with a historical legacy, of actions in one show laying the foundations for future ones, and with people paying homage to their ancestors. I thought this was how Trek was always going to be, but I'm beginning to wonder if the TNG era will be looked on as a 20-year anomaly, never to be repeated.
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Nov 26, 2013 05:16
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Vagabundo posted:This thread is no more than a homo sapiens only club. Would you say it needs breathing room? (Also, ha ha at Firefox spell-check handling "homo" fine, but balking at "sapiens.")
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Nov 26, 2013 05:19
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LeafyOrb posted:I think favorite thing about Klingon culture is that you can be whatever you want as long as you pretend you're fighting a battle of some sort. THE GREATEST ENEMY OF ALL IS HUNGER! *cooks crepes* VICTORYYYYY
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Nov 26, 2013 05:23
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